BoxRec

Fat Git wrote:
Because she went into this marriage with her own free will and knew what was expected of her.

"Complying"

"Knew what was expected of her"

Remind me what century it is.

BigDoofus wrote:

Fat Git wrote:
Because she went into this marriage with her own free will and knew what was expected of her.

"Complying"

"Knew what was expected of her"

Remind me what century it is.

She married the man out of her own free will.

I am sure she went into this with her eyes wide open - anyone with a brain would have thought 'hmmm, working class, immigrant family originating from rural Pakistan now living in Bolton... that's going to be a tough call...'

She needn't had married him, I am sure - and I am sure you will agree - that these expectations hadn't come out of thin air, I am sure mummy had a chat with the young lady of what was expected of her before they got hitched....

Now if mummy has gone back on her word - then yes, that's a shithouse trick of the highest order, I doubt that happened though. I am sure mummy - whose son has the fame, wealth and fortune - thought she was holding all the trump cards and that Fayrool was going to do as she was told... that's my hunch.

Fat Git wrote:

BigDoofus wrote:

Fat Git wrote:
Because she went into this marriage with her own free will and knew what was expected of her.

"Complying"

"Knew what was expected of her"

Remind me what century it is.

She married the man out of her own free will.

I am sure she went into this with her eyes wide open - anyone with a brain would have thought 'hmmm, working class, immigrant family originating from rural Pakistan now living in Bolton... that's going to be a tough call...'

She needn't had married him, I am sure - and I am sure you will agree - that these expectations hadn't come out of thin air, I am sure mummy had a chat with the young lady of what was expected of her before they got hitched....

Now if mummy has gone back on her word - then yes, that's a shithouse trick of the highest order, I doubt that happened though. I am sure mummy - whose son has the fame, wealth and fortune - thought she was holding all the trump cards and that Fayrool was going to do as she was told... that's my hunch.

You've ignored the fact that she is from a wealthy family and insinuated that she is a money-grabber. Now you're admitting that you're basing your argument on a hunch and seem to be condoning the behaviour of the Khan family.

Double post!

Money grabber? Fame grabber? Attention grabber? fornicate knows, we'll soon find out, eh?

We don't know - neither of us - what transpired to the run up to their wedding - but I am sure young Fayrool was read the rulebook by mummy - do either of us know for sure, no - but it's an educated guess that is what happened - which is what happens in most Islamic marriages.

Now, Fayrool wasn't forced into this marriage, she wasn't forced to live in Armpitville Bolton, she wasn't forced to marry into a family that have traditional/reactionary views and come from a different culture to the one she was used to - if she was forced (or it was arranged) then I would have massive sympathy with her predicament, but it wasn't arranged, she went into this with her eyes wide open and married the guy (and his family) out of her own free will.

It's not I have no sympathy for her at all, but one has to acknowledge that this young lady, out of her own free will, made this choice - and the day she tires of it - she can leave him and head back to Noo Yoik. What more is there to it?

Fat Git wrote:Money grabber? Fame grabber? Attention grabber? eff knows, we'll soon find out, eh?

We don't know - neither of us - what transpired to the run up to their wedding - but I am sure young Fayrool was read the rulebook by mummy - do either of us know for sure, no - but it's an educated guess that is what happened - which is what happens in most Islamic marriages.

Now, Fayrool wasn't forced into this marriage, she wasn't forced to live in Armpitville Bolton, she wasn't forced to marry into a family that have traditional/reactionary views and come from a different culture to the one she was used to - if she was forced (or it was arranged) then I would have massive sympathy with her predicament, but it wasn't arranged, she went into this with her eyes wide open and married the guy (and his family) out of her own free will.

It's not I have no sympathy for her at all, but one has to acknowledge that this young lady, out of her own free will, made this choice - and the day she tires of it - she can leave him and head back to Noo Yoik. What more is there to it?

You assume way to much, you'd make a terrible judge

ALI wrote:

Fat Git wrote:Money grabber? Fame grabber? Attention grabber? eff knows, we'll soon find out, eh?

We don't know - neither of us - what transpired to the run up to their wedding - but I am sure young Fayrool was read the rulebook by mummy - do either of us know for sure, no - but it's an educated guess that is what happened - which is what happens in most Islamic marriages.

Now, Fayrool wasn't forced into this marriage, she wasn't forced to live in Armpitville Bolton, she wasn't forced to marry into a family that have traditional/reactionary views and come from a different culture to the one she was used to - if she was forced (or it was arranged) then I would have massive sympathy with her predicament, but it wasn't arranged, she went into this with her eyes wide open and married the guy (and his family) out of her own free will.

It's not I have no sympathy for her at all, but one has to acknowledge that this young lady, out of her own free will, made this choice - and the day she tires of it - she can leave him and head back to Noo Yoik. What more is there to it?

You assume way to much, you'd make a terrible judge

But - the most important bit isn't an assumption - which is she has married him out of her own free will, and the moment she decides she doesn't want to be married to him and the Khan family anymore, she can leave.

She could leave Bolton and the nonsense tomorrow - no-one will stop her.

Fat Git wrote:Money grabber? Fame grabber? Attention grabber? eff knows, we'll soon find out, eh?

We don't know - neither of us - what transpired to the run up to their wedding - but I am sure young Fayrool was read the rulebook by mummy - do either of us know for sure, no - but it's an educated guess that is what happened - which is what happens in most Islamic marriages.

Now, Fayrool wasn't forced into this marriage, she wasn't forced to live in Armpitville Bolton, she wasn't forced to marry into a family that have traditional/reactionary views and come from a different culture to the one she was used to - if she was forced (or it was arranged) then I would have massive sympathy with her predicament, but it wasn't arranged, she went into this with her eyes wide open and married the guy (and his family) out of her own free will.

It's not I have no sympathy for her at all, but one has to acknowledge that this young lady, out of her own free will, made this choice - and the day she tires of it - she can leave him and head back to Noo Yoik. What more is there to it?

What do you know about a woman's free will in an Islamic community? What do you think would have happened if she decided she wanted to marry a white Christian man? What do you think would have happened if she decided to marry another woman? Cause apparently she can't even dress as she wishes.

If she was an underwear model, and was flashing all corners of body to the media, I may have a little more sympathy. But from what I can determine, she dresses like a conservative westerner. This in accordance with 'Western culture' is normal. The problem is her values do not match up with theirs, but who's life is she living, and where is she living it? They need to respect her wishes a little more and be a little bit more vigilant to British/American values.

I would never tell anyone to 'go back where they came from', but if you're going to move from one culture to a very different one, there has to be a level of conformity and respect.

Rob3_142 wrote: What do you know about a woman's free will in an Islamic community?

More than you pal, I lived on the Saudi-Yemeni border for two years, how long where you there for?

What do you think would have happened if she decided she wanted to marry a white Christian man? What do you think would have happened if she decided to marry another woman? Cause apparently she can't even dress as she wishes.

Que?

If she was an underwear model, and was flashing all corners of body to the media, I may have a little more sympathy. But from what I can determine, she dresses like a conservative westerner. This in accordance with 'Western culture' is normal. The problem is her values do not match up with theirs, but who's life is she living, and where is she living it? They need to respect her wishes a little more and be a little bit more vigilant to British/American values.

They don't have to be vigilant to anything, that's the point.

British values - one of them is freedom to worship - they can pray to a meat pie and dress in a red cloak all day long - because the British value and one of the most important cornerstones of it is freedom of worship, now - what is happening in this family has nothing to do with any corruption of British values because that hasn't happened.

I would never tell anyone to 'go back where they came from', but if you're going to move from one culture to a very different one, there has to be a level of conformity and respect.

No there doesn't - do the millions of Brits who move to Australia conform to Aborigianal culture.

Course they don't.

Either, western culture and values are one of freedoms or they aren't.

Pick either but you can't have both.

Its all about respect , She's an attention seeking , fame seeking failed model ,, she knew she was marrying into a muslim familly who have different values to others , now she's complaining , but does she say I'm not happy i want out ,, which has a middle class american , she knows her rights and what she can and can't do .. NO she runs to the fooking newspapers .

If she does'nt like it get a divorce it is 2016 would'nt be hard especielly in America , and she probably will but not before she plays the down trodden , woman card ,, .

The left wing champions of womens rights we have on here seem to forget that she had the choice to marry into a muslim familly who expect certain standards , so she had the freedom to marry and if she has changed her mind has the freedom to divorce ,,, but no she goes public ,, WHY , easy answer she likes the headlines , she's a fooking Bimbo , , , a failed model who's plastic surgery makes her look like a transvestite , but heh , she has had the freedom to get surgery , get married , and get divorced ,, but all she wants to do is go public about the Khans want her to dress a certain way ,

Just an attention seeking gold digger , and she's gonna rip Amirs family apart , before she emptys his bank account ,Like i said then she'll probably move on to a basket baller or movie star

Fat Git wrote:More than you pal, I lived on the Saudi-Yemeni border for two years, how long where you there for?

I have spent zero time on the Saudi-Yemeni border, however my wife is Bangladeshi, so am fully aware of the dynamics of the cultural clashes between Western-Islamic societies. My sister and law was abused by her in-laws, and was even badly beaten by her husband because of the conflict. I have numerous examples of how a women from Islamic families, living in the UK have also suffered. I'd be more than happy to list them.

Que?

What exactly was confusing about what I wrote?

They don't have to be vigilant to anything, that's the point.

British values - one of them is freedom to worship - they can pray to a meat pie and dress in a red cloak all day long - because the British value and one of the most important cornerstones of it is freedom of worship, now - what is happening in this family has nothing to do with any corruption of British values because that hasn't happened.

I'm sorry but you have to be aware of cultural differences when you move to a completely different society. It's respectful. Sexual equality in the UK does not necessarily sit the same in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

The problem is with your assessment is that British values is not just about freedom to worship, it's also about equality, and not discriminating someone for their skin colour or sex. Also the 'Islamic dress sense' is not an Islamic thing at all, it is a cultural thing. That is why people dress differently in Turkey and Saudi Arabia, two predominantly Muslim states. You need to take 'Muslim Values' with a pinch of salt, as these particular values are heavily influenced by the culture of that particular country.

No there doesn't - do the millions of Brits who move to Australia conform to Aborigianal culture.

Course they don't.

Either, western culture and values are one of freedoms or they aren't.

Pick either but you can't have both.

I agree. The millions of people who live in Australia as a result of mass migration did not adhere to the Aboriginal culture, just as the millions of British that did not conform the Indian culture in the US. But then I would consider them as hostile takeovers rather than migration. But then the British Empire and their 'movements' weren't exactly ethical, and occurred in a time where this was common practice.

[/quote]

But - the most important bit isn't an assumption - which is she has married him out of her own free will, and the moment she decides she doesn't want to be married to him and the Khan family anymore, she can leave.[/quote]

She isn't married to the Khan family, she's married to him.

And what adult man has his mum "read his wife the rulebook", if that is indeed what happened?

If he's got any cajones at all, and-given his internet wankfests- any sense of reason, he'll tell his mum to wind her neck in.

Fat Git wrote: she went into this with her eyes wide open and married the guy (and his family) out of her own free will.

She didn't marry his family.

Plenty of women get abused. Your argument seems to be that they can't complain if they agreed to get married.

In a recent report on integration, the author spoke to many married women who weren't allowed to leave their homes. Would you argue they "went into this with eyes wide open"?

Rob3_142 wrote:
I have spent zero time on the Saudi-Yemeni border, however my wife is Bangladeshi, so am fully aware of the dynamics of the cultural clashes between Western-Islamic societies. My sister and law was abused by her in-laws, and was even badly beaten by her husband because of the conflict. I have numerous examples of how a women from Islamic families, living in the UK have also suffered. I'd be more than happy to list them.

Who said you didn't know about Islamic cultural norms for women? Not me, but I know something about it as well, so your rhetorical question ran into the ground rather quickly. Sorry about that.

What exactly was confusing about what I wrote?

As in everything, the question is nonsensical, I could decipher it, but if you can frame the question a bit better, I might be able to answer it.

I'm sorry but you have to be aware of cultural differences when you move to a completely different society. It's respectful. Sexual equality in the UK does not necessarily sit the same in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

Sexual equality?

The woman married the man out of her own free will, she can leave at anytime - her equality is not under threat as of this moment. If they stop her from leaving or divorcing him, then we can start to talk about this. At this moment, that hasn't happened.

She has been asked to wear Islamic clothing, she has refused, so, I don't see what has been compromised.

The problem is with your assessment is that British values is not just about freedom to worship, it's also about equality, and not discriminating someone for their skin colour or sex.

Those are not 'British values' and up until very recently, you were allowed to discriminate on colour (1976) and up until very very recently, it wasn't illegal to rape your wife.

Britain has adopted certain values alongside the rest of the western world - but they're not particulary British, and the UK adopted them a lot later than a lot of countries - for example - China had laws banning racial discrimination a lot earlier than the British did in fact 1949 - is anti-racism a 'Chinese value' of course not! It is a value of all decent people, it's not cultural.

Also the 'Islamic dress sense' is not an Islamic thing at all, it is a cultural thing. That is why people dress differently in Turkey and Saudi Arabia, two predominantly Muslim states. You need to take 'Muslim Values' with a pinch of salt, as these particular values are heavily influenced by the culture of that particular country.

I agree, but Fayrool married into that family, she knew what she was heading into and she did it with her own free willand the day she has had enough then she can leave. As far as I am aware, she has refused to wear the clothing that mummy has dictated for her and she isn't going to budge. So where are her rights being affected?

I agree. The millions of people who live in Australia as a result of mass migration did not adhere to the Aboriginal culture, just as the millions of British that did not conform the Indian culture in the US. But then I would consider them as hostile takeovers rather than migration. But then the British Empire and their 'movements' weren't exactly ethical, and occurred in a time where this was common practice.

Yes, but British 'expats' don't adhere to Spanish customs or values in 2016 - there are a million on the Costas who don't give a shit about anything Spanish.

Pakistani and British 'expats' are very similar in that regard. They are world class in setting up little enclaves of their culture that is hostile to outsiders.

So, openness and tolerance isn't particulary 'British' trait either, ask a Spaniard living in Palmanova.

This is my point, the young woman knew she was getting into.

She hasn't complied to any of their demands and is in fact fighting a dirty public battle with them.

Her liberties have yet to be compromised.

The day that does happen, she is imprisoned or her freedom of movement is denied - then she has my full support.

But at this moment in time, she can leave - whenever she wants.

Tom Moore wrote: She isn't married to the Khan family, she's married to him.

In most of the world, you marry into a family. It would be the same if you married a third generation British woman of Chinese heritage.

She is a Muslim herself, she is aware of this - and if you had married Fayrool - you would have married into her family and she would expect you to comply to the wishes of her parents. If she was a kuffar who married Amir then some of this confusion might be understandable but the woman herself knew exactly what she was taking on - long before the ceremony.

And what adult man has his mum "read his wife the rulebook", if that is indeed what happened?

If he's got any cajones at all, and-given his internet wankfests- any sense of reason, he'll tell his mum to wind her neck in.

He has done exactly that and told them all to desist.

BigDoofus wrote: She didn't marry his family.

According to Islamic traditions - she did, that is the case for most of the planet - most African and Asian societies - two families marry - not two people, and this is especially true in Levant Arab societies where Fayrool's family originated from - she knew the score marrying Amir Khan and if you had married into her family, it's what she would expect off you.

Plenty of women get abused. Your argument seems to be that they can't complain if they agreed to get married.

I have not said anything of the sort, all I have said is that she has plenty of freedoms that she can exercise and has been doing, her freedoms haven't been curtailed in any way at all.

Her family have asked her to wear certain clothing and she has refused.

She knew when she married Amir Khan that is how it was going to be, and if she changes her mind - she can leave - I fully support that choice.

In a recent report on integration, the author spoke to many married women who weren't allowed to leave their homes. Would you argue they "went into this with eyes wide open"?

No, because a lot of those marriages would have been arranged/enforced and of course, any woman being held anywhere against her will is wrong and the full weight of the law should be brought down on people trying to enforce that kind of behaviour.

But that isn't happening here, in any way shape or form.

This is the problem with this argument - it has very very little to do with Islam - if you want to talk about arranged marriages and the lack of freedoms women have in those marriages - then make another thread - because none of that is happening in the case of Fayrool Khan.

Let's go through the main points again.

She chose to marry him.

She is refusing to comply with her in-laws and is in fact, waging a very public PR war against them - meaning she is exercising freedom of choices.

She can leave whenever she wants. In fact, Amir Khan is talking about divorcing her.

I am sure her freedoms are in no way curtailed, was she on 'Loose Women' the other day?

I am sure that goes double if she ever decides to take a flight home from Manchester airport.

coneye wrote:Its all about respect , She's an attention seeking , fame seeking failed model ,, she knew she was marrying into a muslim familly who have different values to others , now she's complaining , but does she say I'm not happy i want out ,, which has a middle class american , she knows her rights and what she can and can't do .. NO she runs to the fooking newspapers .

If she does'nt like it get a divorce it is 2016 would'nt be hard especielly in America , and she probably will but not before she plays the down trodden , woman card ,, .

The left wing champions of womens rights we have on here seem to forget that she had the choice to marry into a muslim familly who expect certain standards , so she had the freedom to marry and if she has changed her mind has the freedom to divorce ,,, but no she goes public ,, WHY , easy answer she likes the headlines , she's a fooking Bimbo , , , a failed model who's plastic surgery makes her look like a transvestite , but heh , she has had the freedom to get surgery , get married , and get divorced ,, but all she wants to do is go public about the Khans want her to dress a certain way ,

Just an attention seeking gold digger , and she's gonna rip Amirs family apart , before she emptys his bank account ,Like i said then she'll probably move on to a basket baller or movie star

Good post! I also felt she looked trannie like but didn't want to mention it as she was getting a lot of compliments and sympathy

Fat Git wrote:Who said you didn't know about Islamic cultural norms for women? Not me, but I know something about it as well, so your rhetorical question ran into the ground rather quickly. Sorry about that.

What are you going on about? What rhetorical question? I asked you what you knew about what Muslim women go through, and you so eloquently responded with 'More than you pal'. You qualified your experience, and I qualified mine, and I am in a much better position to comment.

As in everything, the question is nonsensical, I could decipher it, but if you can frame the question a bit better, I might be able to answer it.

How is the question nonsensical? I'm asking what do you think would happen if.. You're just being difficult.

Sexual equality?

The woman married the man out of her own free will, she can leave at anytime - her equality is not under threat as of this moment. If they stop her from leaving or divorcing him, then we can start to talk about this. At this moment, that hasn't happened.

She has been asked to wear Islamic clothing, she has refused, so, I don't see what has been compromised.

The main problem with your argument, which I and a few others have already highlighted, and you seem inclined to ignore, and that is free will. The free will you enjoy in your life, is not the same free will that a Muslim woman enjoys in hers. When your parents and in-laws start banding the words 'disgrace' and 'shame' about, and begin to emotionally blackmail you to do as your told, that wonderful free will starts to wither away.

Those are not 'British values' and up until very recently, you were allowed to discriminate on colour (1976) and up until very very recently, it wasn't illegal to rape your wife.

Britain has adopted certain values alongside the rest of the western world - but they're not particulary British, and the UK adopted them a lot later than a lot of countries - for example - China had laws banning racial discrimination a lot earlier than the British did in fact 1949 - is anti-racism a 'Chinese value' of course not! It is a value of all decent people, it's not cultural.

So are they, or are they not British values? Cause I'm assuming we're living in 2016, and not in 1976? Much of British culture is derived from Western values, and although it does not always work as intended, in principle, there is equality. Men and women are treated equally. People from different ethnic persuasions are treated equally. Whether or not we derived our values from other countries is irrelevant, it's what being British means now.

Yes, but British 'expats' don't adhere to Spanish customs or values in 2016 - there are a million on the Costas who don't give a poo about anything Spanish.

Pakistani and British 'expats' are very similar in that regard. They are world class in setting up little enclaves of their culture that is hostile to outsiders.

So, openness and tolerance isn't particulary 'British' trait either, ask a Spaniard living in Palmanova.

You need to realise I am not arguing you on this, I completely agree. If you're looking to make arguments, for the sake of an argument (which genuinely feels like you are), then let me know, and I'll just stop responding.

I have been to ex-pat zones, and it is a joke, and I do not endorse them. However, Spanish and English do both still hold Western values, which in their nature are similar. That said, if a lad from an ex-pat zone wanted to marry a Spanish girl, I don't know what problems it would propose.

The main problem with your argument, which I and a few others have already highlighted, and you seem inclined to ignore, and that is free will. The free will you enjoy in your life, is not the same free will that a Muslim woman enjoys in hers. When your parents and in-laws start banding the words 'disgrace' and 'shame' about, and begin to emotionally blackmail you to do as your told, that wonderful free will starts to wither away.

THIS ....... tHIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR ARGUMENT ... Has from the above post , you are assuming that this woman , is a down trodden little muslim woman from the backwaters of Bradford , in an arranged marraige , to a boxer from Bolton , with no where to go and a familyy who will disown her if she leaves her husband , Hence has to putr up with bullying , beatings and all the rest of it .. and in that situation you would probably be correct .

But this woman is'nt , she's a modern muslim from middle class new york .. she's of Lebanese descent , not pakistani ,,, she's not down trodden and not in an arranged marraige , she will excercise her rights to leave at some time in the future and screw Amir for half his wealth .probably more ,,, she has been afforded freedom enoough that she can and does have plastic surgery , model , and have access to the press , something the downtrodden are not allowed ,,

The whole lot of bullshit she is coming out with is nothing to do with Islam ,, being a Muslim its all about repect , she married a guy who's parents have strict standards , and she has the freedom to not adhere to them and she uses it , she also has the fredom to run to newspapers and tv ,, Does that sound like a down trodden little waif from Bradford , who's been forced into a arranged marraige ,, I don't think so

She is is from a Pakistani family.

coneye wrote: THIS ....... tHIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR ARGUMENT ...

The whole lot of bullshit she is coming out with is nothing to do with Islam

, she married a guy who's parents have strict standards ,

And this is the problem with your argument - of all the comments I have read from the Khan family not once have I read a comment "I think this" or "we as a family think that" etc.

Every single comment has referenced their religious beliefs - such as "she is a bad Muslim" or "this is not how a Muslim should dress/behave" etc.

Their "strict standards" as you say are directly from their religious beliefs and to try to say otherwise is ludicrous.

bripez wrote:And this is the problem with your argument - of all the comments I have read from the Khan family not once have I read a comment "I think this" or "we as a family think that" etc.

Every single comment has referenced their religious beliefs - such as "she is a bad Muslim" or "this is not how a Muslim should dress/behave" etc.

Their "strict standards" as you say are directly from their religious beliefs and to try to say otherwise is ludicrous.

A person doesn't have to be religious to think that her plastic surgery and appearance are unacceptable.

Even by Western standards she is a mess.

Horse wrote:

bripez wrote:And this is the problem with your argument - of all the comments I have read from the Khan family not once have I read a comment "I think this" or "we as a family think that" etc.

Every single comment has referenced their religious beliefs - such as "she is a bad Muslim" or "this is not how a Muslim should dress/behave" etc.

Their "strict standards" as you say are directly from their religious beliefs and to try to say otherwise is ludicrous.

A person doesn't have to be religious to think that her plastic surgery and appearance are unacceptable.

Even by Western standards she is a mess.

That is your personal opinion, which is of course is subjective.

The topic is about the relationship between Khans wife and his family.

E.g. Haroon said it was against Islam to have plastic surgery, he did not say "I" don't like plastic surgery.

Fook me dead ,, This forums turning me into a soapie queen ,, Stuff the Khans ,, Let them get divorced , she can marry Kayne west ,, Amir can hook up with Kym Kardishian , , they can film themselves masterbating put it on the net , meenwhile Amirs dad can go porking Kyms Mam , and they can make a sex tape for pensioners , go make a new tv series , . Khans and Kardishians ,, and all live happilly ever after

But Jeez i'm gonna give this subject a miss , and take some of my own advice ,, i'm gonna go get a life

I don't think any of us really know exactly what's gone on behind the scenes. There's 2 sides to every story and I'm sure both sides have some points that are merited. I don't really have much respect for either side so it does just become media nonsense.