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Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 12:42
by HeavyHitters
Wlad had a good run in the heavyweight division, no doubt. The problem with his legacy is, he had deficiencies and detractions in every stage of his career.

Early Career:
When Wlad was an up and comer, he had no problem disposing inadequate foes. But his weak chin and stamina was not exposed until he met up with Ross Puritty, and was KO'ed late in that fight. And then his stamina issue was once again pronounced when he was KO'ed by Lamon Brewster.

Mid career:
Wlad then aligned himself with highly respected trainer Emmanuel Steward. Although Manny was good for Wlad in most aspects, Manny taught Wlad the art of "holding and hugging" especially for when his weak chin would come in to play during a rigorous fight. This tactic made Wlad's bouts "extremely ugly" and "hard to watch" for most fight fans. His fights became dull and over-all unexciting. Any time his opponent caught him clean on the chin, Wlad would then begin his "smother my opponent", which drained all the action out of his fights. Yes, he kept winning, but in distasteful fashion.

Late Career:
He fought Tyson Fury, in what turned out to be a dull and boring fight. Fury's simple "feints" put Wlad on his heels, and kept him from opening up against his taller foe.

He then fought Anthony Joshua in what turned out to be a great fight, but in one of Wlad's most exciting fights in years, and what turned out to be his last fight, he lost.

In summary, there wasn't really any time in Wlad's career where he shined in all aspects of the fight game. His most memorable moments in the ring were loses, instead of his moments of winning in the ring.

:bag: :box: :bag: :box: :bag:

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 14:34
by BroughtonRulesRefuge
Tuan_Jim wrote: 19 Jun 2018, 11:40
Why would Vitali need Briggs' corner to throw in the towel? If Vitali could punch he would have knocked out a 40 year old, injured, glass chinned Shannon Briggs.

No surprise the only two retards in the thread siding with the Klitschkos keep having to cite stats (which they don't understand) and can't discuss actual boxing detail.
Ah, so Jimmy San, so you held your breath to beat your tiny fists on the carpet screaming blue and purple over boxing stats, eh? Briggs only took a 10 count in his first loss to Wilson. The Lewis TKO was Briggs missing a punch and corkscrewing himself into the canvas from exhaustion after burning himself up making Lenny lurch around the ring like one of your besotted English sailors on leave or half the lot the post here. By your logic, Wilson was by far the harder puncher compared to Lewis, and who was it again suffering spectacular one punch KOs?

OOOOPS!

Boxing Stats 101 just for you Jimbo, so cry up a river to get your poor mum to tuck in yer bib so you don’t drool down yer jumper: Starting with final career records and moving through basic timelines that all sports are based on, and do keep in mind they were contemporary to each other in their day with significant career overlap, yet there was only one fight between them with few common opponents. A F-A-I-R comparison being the keyword here.

Lennox: 41-2-1, 32 KO. Title record of 16-2, 10 KO, ultimately unifying the belts, but never defending his unification, instead infamously selling off two belts to long time heavy contenders and mandatories promoted by Don King, Chris Byrd and John Ruiz before abandoning his WBC days before being stripped.

Wlad: 64-5, 53 KO. Title record of 25-4, breaking the Joe Louis title bouts of 27, or arguably 28 if we consider Louis also beat the White heavy and BBC champ that he was never credited for, Savold. Wlad also beat Louis by a wide margin in years holding a title, and consolidated more titles than any unified champ in history and with much diplomacy involved, defended them for many years.

Vitali: 45-2, 41 KO. Title record of 15-2, 12 KO never unified, mainly because Wlad overlapped his career, a nonstarter bout never planned though they could have agreed to do it and boxed at a 12 rd exhibition level to allow the judges to settle the decision and cleared $100 million or more.

My conclusion: Wlad almost 50% more fights and title records set beyond what is likely to be beat until boxing collapses in disrepair. Vitali with the better career record than Lewis, but one title defense less than Lewis.

Age they turned Pro and won first title:

Lennox: Turned pro age 23 and was 27 when he decisioned Tony Tucker for his first title(vacated by Big Dummy Bowe)
Wlad: Turned pro age 20 as Olympic Gold Medalist and was age 24 when he beat Byrd for his first title.
Vitali: Turned pro age 25 and was 27 when he KOed Herbie Hide in England for his first title, the only one taking his first belt in the champ’s hometown.
My Conclusion: Wlad obviously the more gifted with Lennox and Lewis pretty much tied save Lewis didn’t actually beat a standing champ.
These I take to be the protagonists’ best opponents showing dominance without controversy or officiating help:

Lennox: Mike Tyson long past his but still in Ring top 10, and David Tua, a formidable slugger shut out over the distance with Tyson knocked out, and Shannon Briggs who was the “lineal heavy champ, 2 Kos with one shutout.

Wlad: Traveled literally into enemy territory of Russia engaged in a low level war with Ukraine to beat the Olympic Gold medalist and undefeated WBA champ Alexander Povetkin, Ruslan Chagaev, the undefeated World Gold Medalist and WBA champ in a tricky southpaw taken on short notice, David Haye the WBA champ, Sultan Ibragimov the Olympic Silver Medalist and undefeated WBO champ, and a shutout over Chris Byrd the WBO champ, making it twice when Byrd was IBF champ, 5 wide shutouts with one KO over Chagaev.

Vitali: Adamek a highly rated Heavy and P4Per, Solis gold medalist, undefeated and highly touted, Arreola undefeated KO artist, Juan Carlos Gomez highly accomplished cruiser champ, heavy contender and tricky southpaw rumored to have “handled” Vitali in sparring back in the day, Sam Peter only once defeated and WBC champ in Vitali’s first fight back from 4 year retirement, and Corrie Sanders and fast starting southpaw KO artist heavily avoided by champs back in the day. Vitali KOed all.

My conclusion: Vitali a big edge in 5 KOs,100%, Wlad with more quality and quantity with 6 wins, and Lewis down on quality wins with 3 and one more KO than Wlad.

Let’s look at where the fighters were midcareer.

Lennox: Boxed 14 years, so in 1997 he regained his WBC belt against crack addict Oliver McCall dragged out of drug rehab the week before the fight with subsequent result, won a DQ against undefeated Henry Akinwande, and a quick KO over Andrew Golota, all title fights.

Wlad: Boxed 21 years, so midway in 2006 to 2007, he KOed Byrd, undefeated Calvin Brock, Ray Austin, and Lamon Brewster, all title fights.

Vitali: Boxed 16 years pro, so at 8 years in 2004 he KOed Corrie Sanders and Danny Williams, both top 10 fighters at the time and entered retirement for 4 years, so technically only active for approx. 12 years.

Hard to draw a conclusion: I feel Vitali comp is better with Wlad and Lennox tied for quantity as they regained a title.

This the age and results of the final 2 years:

Lennox: Age 36-37 he knocks out Tyson and forces a ref stoppage on Vitali. Backed out of his agreed rematch at age 38 for HUGE $$$, very strange behavior for a prize fighter.

Wlad: Age 40-41, he was inactive after two pull outs by new defending Tyson Fury and was knocked out by Anthony Joshua in one of the most highly skilled all time donnybrooks in the history of the division.

Vitali: Age 39-41, he KOs Odlanier Solis, Tomasz Adamek and Manuel Charr with UD over Derek Chisora, a fight he fought one handed after injury to his shoulder.

My Conclusion: Vitali and Wlad finished a few years older with Vitali having stupendous results. Wlad suffered from the perfect storm of negative circumstances beyond his control. Lennox simply didn’t have it any more and didn’t want to get beat up for all the tea in China.

In summary: Wlad has arguably the best career record for heavies though I’d still have Louis edging him.

Vitali and Lewis are close in their fashion, but Vitali also set a longevity record for winning a title immediately after a long retirement, 4 years, and simply has more wins and KOs and only one down in title fights to Lewis. If he hadn’t a compelling deadline to run for political office, he could have easily come back for one more win. The only other fighter I can think of who served in politics after their careers ended are Gene Tunney and Eder Jofre though there may be more. The way Lewis way giving up all his belts speaks of a Lamb’s exit, not a Lion. I can’t imagine him enduring the dangerous political riot conditions by Vitali in Ukraine.

And now Jimmy san, nobody ever held Vitali being an explosive puncher though he has the 1st round phantom one punch that visualy jerked Odlanier Solis’ knee out of joint that he is never credited with. 87% KO ratio bespeaks to his accuracy and accumulation workrate accomplished with “ARM punches,” Jimbo. Not a flaw to be an arm puncher if you have his kind of power. They’re faster and more accurate and both he and Wlad perfected the new big man style of boxing. And they were both head hunters to lean move back in straight lines like Ali used to do, but they were usually in range, their range, not their opponents’. Wlad did suffer from too much clinching later in his career and was off balance earlier when throwing the right, the reason he won several of his fights almost exclusively with his left. Overall they were both some of the best balanced boxers in history and KO artists in history and were winning most rounds in every fight, a combination of dominance not seen since prime Mike Tyson.

Now scream for yer mam Jimbo to dismiss you from your bib. :TU:

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 16:30
by 493dart
Lewis is the Greatest heavy of all time = FACT :bag:

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 16:36
by Boxing Writer
493dart wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:30 Lewis is the Greatest heavy of all time = FACT :bag:
No. Definitely not the GOAT. Not top-3 even.

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 16:47
by 493dart
Boxing Writer wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:36
493dart wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:30 Lewis is the Greatest heavy of all time = FACT :bag:
No. Definitely not the GOAT. Not top-3 even.
THE GOAT. Lewis would have beaten ANY top hvy of ANY era. Ali ... Louis... all of them

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 17:00
by tiny_acres
493dart wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:47
Boxing Writer wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:36
493dart wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:30 Lewis is the Greatest heavy of all time = FACT :bag:
No. Definitely not the GOAT. Not top-3 even.
THE GOAT. Lewis would have beaten ANY top hvy of ANY era. Ali ... Louis... all of them
Lewis could have beaten any man in history.
It's far from a guarantee.
Could have not would have

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 17:15
by Boxing Writer
493dart wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:47
Boxing Writer wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:36
493dart wrote: 21 Jun 2018, 16:30 Lewis is the Greatest heavy of all time = FACT :bag:
No. Definitely not the GOAT. Not top-3 even.
THE GOAT. Lewis would have beaten ANY top hvy of ANY era. Ali ... Louis... all of them
Why then prime and fully prepared 31-years-old Lennox Lewis barely edged (and lot of people thought he didn't deserve the win) 35-years-old inactive and overweight Ray Mercer, who hadn't won the fight in 30 months? The same Mercer, who, while being in his very best shape, active and undefeated, was completely schooled by 42-years-old Larry Holmes?

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 23:50
by Ilya Muromets
HeavyHitters wrote: 20 Jun 2018, 13:33
x2x wrote: 19 Jun 2018, 20:37
bigjack wrote: 19 Jun 2018, 05:31

What,you've never mentioned him cheating against Vitali,maybe you've had too many beatings too ?

Not really. The only fights ive ever lost was when i knocked a guy out and the poor guy had to go to the hospital with a concussion, but as he fell he grabbed my legs and tripped me up and landed on top of me and the stupid ref said i hit the ground first or under him or something and lost which was very stupid imho. It was some kind of different rules in ____. The other was when i was a kid and fought two kids at the same time and the big guy wound up sitting on top of me and pushing on my nose so i thought it would break and i gave up. I couldnt quite figure out how to get out from under when when i was a kid and a bigger kid was sitting on top of me. I'm not sure ive ever quite figured that one out.

Watch Lewis vs Vitali in slow motion with the pause button and you'll see what he was doing. A real referee would have dq'd him. It's also odd that some of his oponents were drugged - Golota, Tyson...
I just watched Vitali vs. Lewis last night on Youtube, and in the 3rd round, it WAS actually an illegal punch that Lewis landed to the left side of Vitali's face that opened up the cut. If you watch carefully, you can see that Lewis has his right arm wrapped around behind Vitali's head, holding him while he throws the illegal blow to open up the cut.

This should have been replayed in between the 3rd and 4th rounds to determine that Lewis did not throw a legal punch to open up the cut. Therefore, when the fight doctor halted the fight after 6 rounds, it should have been declared a DQ victory in favor of Vitali Klitschko.

And yes, Vitali was coming on at the end of the 6th round. Vitali won rounds 1, 2, 4, and 5, while Lewis was credited for winning rounds 3 and 6, from all 3 judges. But "giving" round 6 to Lewis was more "charity" than anything, given the fact that he only landed a few good punches in that round, that really didn't have much of an effect on Vitali.

If you was listening to and "buying" all the biased rhetoric the British commentators were spewing, then yes, I can see how you was influenced into thinking Lewis was coming on strong, when in reality, he wasn't.

Remember, this fight basically FORCED Lennox Lewis into retirement. He had the option to either fight Vitali in a rematch, in which he wanted no part of again. Or face Roy Jones, who, if he loses to, might ruin his legacy. So, Lewis chose to retire.

And you can hear it in Lewis' "scatter-brained" interview after the fight, how relieved he was that he survived this fight with Vitali, on a "cut" technicality. I think he actually says something like "The ref never hurt me." ha ha

:bag: :box: :bag: :box: :bag:

He was right about the ref never hurting him. In fact i think he said a lot more than he was supposed to say in that sentence because an honest ref that wasn't in his pocket would have dq'd him.

Yep that's another thing Lewis did was hold and hit, but I believe he first cut Vitali by raking the lacing of his glove across his face. Keep in mind that Vitali had never been cut in his entire boxing and kickboxing career! Then if you watch very carefully you will see that Lewis spent the entire remainder of the fight trying to worsen the cut by rubbing his head into it and also, as you say, holding and hitting. The referee ignored it. Brother Wlad after the fight was irate, but as usual in crooked boxing it was just swept under the rug.

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 22 Jun 2018, 00:19
by HomicideHenry
Vladimir had greater accomplishments but Lennox had the Killer Instinct that Klitschko lacked. Lewis was not above getting down and dirty and digging down deep, getting mixed up in a dog fight from time to time. Klitschko avoided it all costs.

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 22 Jun 2018, 15:24
by Bodyshot3
Great question :salut:

With Lewis I always thought his weakness was a tendency to switch-off and lose/struggle in entirely winnable fights rather than ever having a huge, glaring shortfall in his overalll boxing ability.

He got absolutely hijacked/taken out in SA by Rahman - way up on high on the High Veld - because he did not get that a fight at altitude was a massive deal and that Rahman had actually done his time up there and could punch more than a bit.

He did not see Oliver coming either, which was very disappointing.

Lennox also underestimated a pumped-up and improved Bruno as well.....that fight is worth watching again because an apparently sho/hopelesst Bruno who most of the British press thought was not worthy of another shot; smacked Lennox in the face with a series of very hard jabs and won several rounds.

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 22 Jun 2018, 17:11
by Caractacus
someone here used the phrase "Cry ME A River" so a good excuse to hear a good song once again.


Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 23 Jun 2018, 14:18
by Ilya Muromets
bigjack wrote: 20 Jun 2018, 02:43
x2x wrote: 20 Jun 2018, 00:06
Boxing Writer wrote: 19 Jun 2018, 23:40
Golota was drugged, but he was drugged by himself with that lidocaine injection.

Tyson wasn't drugged, he was just beynd shot.
The incredibly bizarre behavior of Golota in the Lewis fight have never been explained. First thing i said when i saw Golota's glassy eyed face when he finally (!) entered the ring, was, "He's doped up". I know the look. Tyson too sounded like he was on cloud nine after the Lewis fight.
How old are you,10 ?If you want an example of dirty fighting then watch Wlad v Povetkin.
"How old are you,10 ?"

That commonly passes for "debate" on places like this.

Wlad hanging on to Povetkin like an octopus - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him - has nothing whatsoever to do with Lewis raking his glove lacing on Vitali's face and holding and hitting and rubbing his head into the cut to open it up all fight long - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him.

How old are you, nine?

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 23 Jun 2018, 14:32
by bigjack
x2x wrote: 23 Jun 2018, 14:18
bigjack wrote: 20 Jun 2018, 02:43
x2x wrote: 20 Jun 2018, 00:06

The incredibly bizarre behavior of Golota in the Lewis fight have never been explained. First thing i said when i saw Golota's glassy eyed face when he finally (!) entered the ring, was, "He's doped up". I know the look. Tyson too sounded like he was on cloud nine after the Lewis fight.
How old are you,10 ?If you want an example of dirty fighting then watch Wlad v Povetkin.
"How old are you,10 ?"

That commonly passes for "debate" on places like this.

Wlad hanging on to Povetkin like an octopus - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him - has nothing whatsoever to do with Lewis raking his glove lacing on Vitali's face and holding and hitting and rubbing his head into the cut to open it up all fight long - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him.

How old are you, nine?
BUT THE REF ALLOWED HIM TO DO IT,that's if he did,which i didn't see myself,yes 9,that's 3 years older than you :TU:

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 23 Jun 2018, 14:37
by Ilya Muromets
bigjack wrote: 23 Jun 2018, 14:32
x2x wrote: 23 Jun 2018, 14:18
bigjack wrote: 20 Jun 2018, 02:43

How old are you,10 ?If you want an example of dirty fighting then watch Wlad v Povetkin.
"How old are you,10 ?"

That commonly passes for "debate" on places like this.

Wlad hanging on to Povetkin like an octopus - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him - has nothing whatsoever to do with Lewis raking his glove lacing on Vitali's face and holding and hitting and rubbing his head into the cut to open it up all fight long - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him.

How old are you, nine?
BUT THE REF ALLOWED HIM TO DO IT,that's if he did,which i didn't see myself,yes 9,that's 3 years older than you :TU:

Oh now I'm six am I? I wish I was. I'd like to start all over and do it right this time!

Boxing refs and judges work for the house, the guys who hire them and pay them. Boxing is crooked. Haven't you noticed?

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 23 Jun 2018, 14:45
by bigjack
x2x wrote: 23 Jun 2018, 14:37
bigjack wrote: 23 Jun 2018, 14:32
x2x wrote: 23 Jun 2018, 14:18

"How old are you,10 ?"

That commonly passes for "debate" on places like this.

Wlad hanging on to Povetkin like an octopus - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him - has nothing whatsoever to do with Lewis raking his glove lacing on Vitali's face and holding and hitting and rubbing his head into the cut to open it up all fight long - and the ref should not have allowed him to do it and if he persisted disqualified him.

How old are you, nine?
BUT THE REF ALLOWED HIM TO DO IT,that's if he did,which i didn't see myself,yes 9,that's 3 years older than you :TU:

Oh now I'm six am I? I wish I was. I'd like to start all over and do it right this time!

Boxing refs and judges work for the house, the guys who hire them and pay them. Boxing is crooked. Haven't you noticed?
I'm fully aware what boxing is like having watched thousands of fights over the last 40 years,sadly if you can get away with something,then good luck.

Re: Lewis or Wlad, who was better?

Posted: 28 Jun 2018, 19:05
by ron4972
I pick Lewis over Vlad. No doubt in my mind.

The two guys were essentially the same fighters, physically and stylistically. It's just that Lewis was more fluid that Vladimir. I think that would have given him a decisive edge.

Overall, this would have been a good fight, assuming were talking about a hypothetical match-up between the two during their peaks. But Lewis would have come out on top.