BoxRec

gregregegg wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 16:21 Once you lose are you really a prospect you found your levle. Sure you can still improve, but you know where you are. Wild 1 shot Kos kinda excluded.

Hopkins lost his first fight
Pacquiao his 12th

They did alright

10 years from now..........'well foreman won a title at 45, and hughie is only 37 - just a babeh! a wee tot!'

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Aug 2021, 21:01 10 years from now..........'well foreman won a title at 45, and hughie is only 37 - just a babeh! a wee tot!'

you forgot, "doesn't have his man strength."

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Aug 2021, 19:25 i'd rather have dubby in than oscar rivas

although its one of those annoying situations where putting him over rivas would also put him over a guy i think ranks above dubs (egg yolk)

Not for me yet. He doesn't have anything on his resume as good as Rivas' win over Jennings. Which is probably also Joyce's best win too. Rivas gave a good account of himself against Whyte, Dubois less so against Joyce.

Whilst I would agree Rivas needs a big fight soon to justify his ranking, so would Dubois. Plus having Rivas on the periphery with his lack of opposition is less of an issue for me than Hunter being as high as he is.

rivas has only won 1 fight, vs a softy, in the last 2 and a half years, he's slipped for me and i hate to see ratings clogged up with guys who barely fight anymore

rivas scored a kd against whyte and then lost pretty much every other round; dubois was ahead into the 10th vs joyce, I wouldnt say rivas did better, he had less sustained success than dubs did

how good is jennings these days anyway

his peak was probably 7 years ago when he won a split over mike perez

Dubois was not ahead of Joyce except on the cards that Frank had rigged for him

But if we are bringing cards into it Rivas was up on them at the time his stoppage of Jennings.

And Jennings obviously isn't that soft, given Joyce couldn't stop him in the very next fight.

It sounds like you are back on the Dubois hype train here. Personally I am happy that Frank has been forced to slow down and take him a slightly longer/easier development route. (The WBA#1 ranking is just foolishness)

rivas was ahead vs jennings, never said otherwise. you were comparing whyte-rivas to joyce-dubois, and dubois was compeittive throughout. it was a close fight, rivas-whyte wasnt, rivas simply had one big moment

rating dubois over a guy with 1 win in the last 2.5 years, and 1 notable win in his entire career, is not being on a hype train of any sort. clogging up the rankings with guys who hardly fight and dont even have that impressive of results is what i am against.. at this rate rivas will still be in the rankings a couple months from now, when a win over sylvera louis is the only W he's got in 3 years. that is just plain ugly my man

the peak of jennings career was probably winning a split over mike perez 7 yeas ago, he was good but hardly some amazing win that should lock rivas in to the top 15 for years

Apologies I misread that. You were talking about the Whyte fight. Though I recalled it being closer than you say. Might be wrong on that.

But back to Dubois. It doesn't matter so much where we rate Jennings, because the victory over him would make it easier to argue Rivas is at a similar level to Joyce, than the Dubois who was beaten by Joyce.

Dubois going back to KOing overmatched opponents doesn't really move the needle for me. But I acknowledge Rivas should be dropped out the rankings depending on who he is facing next. I mean maybe he should be dropped anyway because he is a bridger weight.

But I would think even with Rivas opening up a space, doubt there would be many putting Dubois in 15th over say Helenius.

2 dudes who both should be above rivas

DDD has to be above rivas. Rivas first, last and only decent win was jennings 2019. sure it is better than DDDs best win, but acumulation and activity has to have DDD up for me. Add in rivas is lurking around bridgerweight shit and all that, has no place in the rankings with his lack of activity. (i dont even count his last fight, should of never been sanctioned...)

If lack of quality wins is the problem then how is Otto in there…. I know boxrec computer disagrees (they have a big bias to the past) but breazeal is not quality, I’d rate DDDs win over Gorman higher than ottos over breazeal. Ottos Is in The rankings on cutting fury and that’s it…

gregregegg wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 03:12 DDD has to be above rivas. Rivas first, last and only decent win was jennings 2019. sure it is better than DDDs best win, but acumulation and activity has to have DDD up for me. Add in rivas is lurking around bridgerweight shit and all that, has no place in the rankings with his lack of activity. (i dont even count his last fight, should of never been sanctioned...)

If lack of quality wins is the problem then how is Otto in there…. I know boxrec computer disagrees (they have a big bias to the past) but breazeal is not quality, I’d rate DDDs win over Gorman higher than ottos over breazeal. Ottos Is in The rankings on cutting fury and that’s it…

I agree that Breazeale was overrated, but even so, you are saying beating a British level prospect is better than a win over a guy (whilst admittedly inactive) who had fought for two world titles in his last 5 fights.

Also to be fair to Wallin, in that loss to Fury he also landed more on Fury than all 15 of the opponents compubox recorded (including Klitschko, Wilder). So that, along with how he went after the cut, demonstrated (to me at least) that he can hang at the top level. Whereas DDD showed in his fight with Joyce, he still has some way to go.

Finkel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 07:25

gregregegg wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 03:12 DDD has to be above rivas. Rivas first, last and only decent win was jennings 2019. sure it is better than DDDs best win, but acumulation and activity has to have DDD up for me. Add in rivas is lurking around bridgerweight shit and all that, has no place in the rankings with his lack of activity. (i dont even count his last fight, should of never been sanctioned...)

If lack of quality wins is the problem then how is Otto in there…. I know boxrec computer disagrees (they have a big bias to the past) but breazeal is not quality, I’d rate DDDs win over Gorman higher than ottos over breazeal. Ottos Is in The rankings on cutting fury and that’s it…

I agree that Breazeale was overrated, but even so, you are saying beating a British level prospect is better than a win over a guy (whilst admittedly inactive) who had fought for two world titles in his last 5 fights.

Also to be fair to Wallin, in that loss to Fury he also landed more on Fury than all 15 of the opponents compubox recorded (including Klitschko, Wilder). So that, along with how he went after the cut, demonstrated (to me at least) that he can hang at the top level. Whereas DDD showed in his fight with Joyce, he still has some way to go.

Saying I recon Gorman is as good as breazeal. So dominating gorman is better than I kinda close fight with breazeal.

I find it hard to give too much credit to breazeal for being in world title fights when in one he lost 6/6 round them got ko’d and in the other he was on the wrong side of ko of the year in the first round.

His other fights, was close with negron till he got the stop, Took 8 to beats shell of molinea, was losing till he chinned some guy no one had heard of who recently got knocked out quicker fights For a polish title vs another guy I haven’t heard of..

I would say breazeal has zero good performances in the last 5 years+

gregregegg wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 15:57

Finkel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 07:25

gregregegg wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 03:12 DDD has to be above rivas. Rivas first, last and only decent win was jennings 2019. sure it is better than DDDs best win, but acumulation and activity has to have DDD up for me. Add in rivas is lurking around bridgerweight shit and all that, has no place in the rankings with his lack of activity. (i dont even count his last fight, should of never been sanctioned...)

If lack of quality wins is the problem then how is Otto in there…. I know boxrec computer disagrees (they have a big bias to the past) but breazeal is not quality, I’d rate DDDs win over Gorman higher than ottos over breazeal. Ottos Is in The rankings on cutting fury and that’s it…

I agree that Breazeale was overrated, but even so, you are saying beating a British level prospect is better than a win over a guy (whilst admittedly inactive) who had fought for two world titles in his last 5 fights.

Also to be fair to Wallin, in that loss to Fury he also landed more on Fury than all 15 of the opponents compubox recorded (including Klitschko, Wilder). So that, along with how he went after the cut, demonstrated (to me at least) that he can hang at the top level. Whereas DDD showed in his fight with Joyce, he still has some way to go.

Saying I recon Gorman is as good as breazeal. So dominating gorman is better than I kinda close fight with breazeal.

I find it hard to give too much credit to breazeal for being in world title fights when in one he lost 6/6 round them got ko’d and in the other he was on the wrong side of ko of the year in the first round.

His other fights, was close with negron till he got the stop, Took 8 to beats shell of molinea, was losing till he chinned some guy no one had heard of who recently got knocked out quicker fights For a polish title vs another guy I haven’t heard of..

I would say breazeal has zero good performances in the last 5 years+

Now do Gorman...

I'll save you some time, Gorman's best win on paper is 98 ranked Kevin Johnson.
If he ends up with a career like Breazeale you'll deem him a success no doubt.

https://premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

So given everything, do you still think DDD should be above Wallin?

Finkel wrote: ↑30 Aug 2021, 22:51 But I would think even with Rivas opening up a space, doubt there would be many putting Dubois in 15th over say Helenius.

Basing on recent vacant spot voting:

16.Helenius
17.Hrgović
18.Kabayel
19.Bakole
20.Dubois
21.Martin
22.Różański
23.Hughie

Finkel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 18:27 I'll save you some time, Gorman's best win on paper is 98 ranked Kevin Johnson.
If he ends up with a career like Breazeale you'll deem him a success no doubt.

https://premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

So given everything, do you still think DDD should be above Wallin?

Yes. I think his performance vs joe is about as good as walin vs fury. I think his performance vs Gorman Is better than walin vs breazeal. And I think the rest of his resume, though weak is better than wallins. Add in better activity even with a bad injury and to me I’d have DDD above Otto. Added bonus reason, if they were to win DDD would fornicate walk-in up I’m my opinion.

Ps I don’t think Gorman will have a better career. I just think he is as hard an opponent. So demolishing him is better than a close fight with breazeal to me.

gregregegg wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:46

Finkel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 18:27 I'll save you some time, Gorman's best win on paper is 98 ranked Kevin Johnson.
If he ends up with a career like Breazeale you'll deem him a success no doubt.

https://premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

So given everything, do you still think DDD should be above Wallin?

Yes. I think his performance vs joe is about as good as walin vs fury. I think his performance vs Gorman Is better than walin vs breazeal. And I think the rest of his resume, though weak is better than wallins. Add in better activity even with a bad injury and to me I’d have DDD above Otto. Added bonus reason, if they were to win DDD would fornicate walk-in up I’m my opinion.

Ps I don’t think Gorman will have a better career. I just think he is as hard an opponent. So demolishing him is better than a close fight with breazeal to me.

Was Wallin vs Breazeale that close? Also, Otto and Dubois have different styles, Dubois would probably knock Breazeale out inside 4 rounds, doesn't mean that he is better or would defeat Wallin.

aicheligad wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:04

gregregegg wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:46

Finkel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 18:27 I'll save you some time, Gorman's best win on paper is 98 ranked Kevin Johnson.
If he ends up with a career like Breazeale you'll deem him a success no doubt.

https://premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

So given everything, do you still think DDD should be above Wallin?

Yes. I think his performance vs joe is about as good as walin vs fury. I think his performance vs Gorman Is better than walin vs breazeal. And I think the rest of his resume, though weak is better than wallins. Add in better activity even with a bad injury and to me I’d have DDD above Otto. Added bonus reason, if they were to win DDD would fornicate walk-in up I’m my opinion.

Ps I don’t think Gorman will have a better career. I just think he is as hard an opponent. So demolishing him is better than a close fight with breazeal to me.

Was Wallin vs Breazeale that close? Also, Otto and Dubois have different styles, Dubois would probably knock Breazeale out inside 4 rounds, doesn't mean that he is better or would defeat Wallin.

Ok not close, but closer than i think it should be if wallin is anygood. my memory seems to think wallin battered him early, but then it was competitive late....

Mabey i overate DDD and underate Walin, but holy fuk i think DDD bashes walin.

gregregegg wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:12

aicheligad wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:04

gregregegg wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:46


Yes. I think his performance vs joe is about as good as walin vs fury. I think his performance vs Gorman Is better than walin vs breazeal. And I think the rest of his resume, though weak is better than wallins. Add in better activity even with a bad injury and to me I’d have DDD above Otto. Added bonus reason, if they were to win DDD would fornicate walk-in up I’m my opinion.

Ps I don’t think Gorman will have a better career. I just think he is as hard an opponent. So demolishing him is better than a close fight with breazeal to me.

Was Wallin vs Breazeale that close? Also, Otto and Dubois have different styles, Dubois would probably knock Breazeale out inside 4 rounds, doesn't mean that he is better or would defeat Wallin.

Ok not close, but closer than i think it should be if wallin is anygood. my memory seems to think wallin battered him early, but then it was competitive late....

Mabey i overate DDD and underate Walin, but holy fuk i think DDD bashes walin.

Maybe yes, I can see DDD knocking Wallin out but it's almost 50/50 and I'd say Wallin wins on points. I would like to see that fight

aicheligad wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:23

gregregegg wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:12

aicheligad wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 16:04

Was Wallin vs Breazeale that close? Also, Otto and Dubois have different styles, Dubois would probably knock Breazeale out inside 4 rounds, doesn't mean that he is better or would defeat Wallin.

Ok not close, but closer than i think it should be if wallin is anygood. my memory seems to think wallin battered him early, but then it was competitive late....

Mabey i overate DDD and underate Walin, but holy fuk i think DDD bashes walin.

Maybe yes, I can see DDD knocking Wallin out but it's almost 50/50 and I'd say Wallin wins on points. I would like to see that fight

DDD is a fornicating beast, can not for the life of me see what wallin has to hold him off to get the points win. i think DDD could just initiate trades and wallin has shown nothing to sugest he could deal with it. Honestly i see it as a horrific beating. But, we will never know (unless we get it soon).

gregregegg wrote: ↑02 Sep 2021, 15:46

Finkel wrote: ↑31 Aug 2021, 18:27 I'll save you some time, Gorman's best win on paper is 98 ranked Kevin Johnson.
If he ends up with a career like Breazeale you'll deem him a success no doubt.

https://premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

So given everything, do you still think DDD should be above Wallin?

Yes. I think his performance vs joe is about as good as walin vs fury. I think his performance vs Gorman Is better than walin vs breazeal. And I think the rest of his resume, though weak is better than wallins. Add in better activity even with a bad injury and to me I’d have DDD above Otto. Added bonus reason, if they were to win DDD would fornicate walk-in up I’m my opinion.

Ps I don’t think Gorman will have a better career. I just think he is as hard an opponent. So demolishing him is better than a close fight with breazeal to me.

Okay, well I think you are way off comparing those two performances.
Dubois ran out of ideas and got stopped against Joe Joyce. It showed he wasn't at that level yet, and would need a rebuild.
Wallin should have arguably gotten a cuts stoppage, and whilst I think Fury comfortably deserved the UD, Wallin out landed all of Fury's high level opponents that came before, even putting it on Fury in the 12th. This showed whilst not at Fury's level, he was already one to watch.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on which is the better performance.

Also I would say Granat is a good name on the resume for Wallin (though I have only seen highlights). Dubois has been engaging in joke fights like Fujimoto to get the WBO #2 position. It's all smoke and mirrors at this point, though I do recognize he probably has a higher ceiling than Wallin. Not right now though, not for me anyway.

I think DDD was right in it till his face broke… gotta credit Joyce for that but also have to accept it’s a kinda unlucky injury.

I think fury kinda fights to a levle, and although I agree that could of easily been stopped on cuts, cuts are very much luck. Sure you gotta kit a guy to cut a guy, but also weird skimming shots that would often be dismissed as a glancing shot often cause the worst cuts. Without that cut I think no one pays attention to wallin, it’s impressive but ultimently lucky.

I think that’s where my opinion varies to most. While I credit joe for breaking ddds face I also except it was a bit of luck. And while I credit wallin for cutting fury I think that probably was a bit lucky.

Both Injury’s change the entire fight, ddd can hardly see out of his lead eye and is shitting himself thinking about his vision. Fury’s vision is impaired and shitting himself thinking about the ref stopping it. Both impair how they fight to a degree .

I know I’m the minority on my opinion of the performances but yea ddd bashes wallin and I feel most would agree there.