Let's hope that Joshua doesn't try and belittle his inexperienced opponent by saying ' time to go to school', only to get flattened in round 3 and watch Ngannou dance above him, and lose the fight on one of the judges scorecards (and in most people's eyes).
BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54
Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”
Who ducked who is irrelevant, it's a list of then active top fighters/champions during Fury's "prime". It demonstrates how flimsy Fury's claim to top 10 ATG status is/would be
As @jwfg said "it's still a long list."
Vitali last fought in 2012. Was this Fury’s prime?
Why not add Holyfield to make it longer?
I'd say so yes. Fury was already ranked by both TBRB and The Ring in 2012. Actually I think the beginning of his prime was marked by his first win over Chisora in mid-2011. Chisora, who Vitali would fight the very next year. I would say Fury's absolute peak was the one year period that ran from Chisora 2, through Hammer, and onto Klitschko. I think his prime ended with Wilder 2 in 2020. And he has been on the decline ever since.
But if you read the thread, I already stated I personally take no issue with Fury going the WBO route instead of the WBC route at that time. So I'm not sure why you are quite so fixated on this.
As for your suggestion of including Holyfield... I see we are playing silly buggers now.
So, back to the thread
Re: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 07:45
by SeanBrennan
big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:38
Let's hope that Joshua doesn't try and belittle his inexperienced opponent by saying ' time to go to school', only to get flattened in round 3 and watch Ngannou dance above him, and lose the fight on one of the judges scorecards (and in most people's eyes).
I don't think AJ has ever really belittled an opponent tbf to him, to his credit. Didn't even mock Wilder after all he said about him before getting beat by Parker.
big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:38
Let's hope that Joshua doesn't try and belittle his inexperienced opponent by saying ' time to go to school', only to get flattened in round 3 and watch Ngannou dance above him, and lose the fight on one of the judges scorecards (and in most people's eyes).
I don't think AJ has ever really belittled an opponent tbf to him, to his credit. Didn't even mock Wilder after all he said about him before getting beat by Parker.
And I think that, along with the calibre of opponents faced, sets him apart from Fury.
BigDoofus wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 19:54
Take Vitali out and the next on his list is “No Haye”
He didn't fight Haye, so it's valid. The difference is, when Haye pulled out of a date he actually had a cut. Fury fought a cage fighter and pulled out of the Usyk date because of three cuts, he himself said he didn't have. Luke's a laughing stock.
“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.
AJ turned down 2 fights in 9 months, never heard of that before.
big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:38
Let's hope that Joshua doesn't try and belittle his inexperienced opponent by saying ' time to go to school', only to get flattened in round 3 and watch Ngannou dance above him, and lose the fight on one of the judges scorecards (and in most people's eyes).
I don't think AJ has ever really belittled an opponent tbf to him, to his credit. Didn't even mock Wilder after all he said about him before getting beat by Parker.
The same AJ that threw Usyk’s belts out of the ring?
big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:38
Let's hope that Joshua doesn't try and belittle his inexperienced opponent by saying ' time to go to school', only to get flattened in round 3 and watch Ngannou dance above him, and lose the fight on one of the judges scorecards (and in most people's eyes).
I don't think AJ has ever really belittled an opponent tbf to him, to his credit. Didn't even mock Wilder after all he said about him before getting beat by Parker.
The same AJ that threw Usyk’s belts out of the ring?
big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 07:38
Let's hope that Joshua doesn't try and belittle his inexperienced opponent by saying ' time to go to school', only to get flattened in round 3 and watch Ngannou dance above him, and lose the fight on one of the judges scorecards (and in most people's eyes).
I don't think AJ has ever really belittled an opponent tbf to him, to his credit. Didn't even mock Wilder after all he said about him before getting beat by Parker.
me too
And I think that, along with the calibre of opponents faced, sets him apart from Fury.
Re: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 08:53
by The Asleep Lamps
I always thought AJ took the tougher opponents of the two and that is why he lost to Ruiz the first fight. I recall AJ was going to fight Luis Ortiz but Ortiz decided to rematch Wilder for his belt instead. It was Fury though who beat Wilder for the first time which counts for something to me even though people like to dump on Wilder atm.
Re: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 08:54
by handsofstone
Don't like this fight for obvious reasons but it is Joshua's 4th fight in less than a year so nowhere near as bad as the inactive lineal champion squaring off against Ngannou and if Fury had only done what he should've instead of shitting a brick when he got dropped then this fight doesn't happen
All hail the Gypsy King eh, Usyk is gonna muller him I cannot wait
Re: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 08:55
by big lennox
What are people's thoughts on this shot? An accidental elbow or an illegal blow?
Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23
Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko
I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?
Wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk.
The first undisputed champion since L. Lewis with wins over 2 HOFers.
They are great achievements, yes. But how about this:
To be within a decent shout of ATG top 10 status he really needs to be top 5 within the last 50 years because, whilst I'm no historian, some of those old timers have some mean looking records!
So let's say that Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holmes are more than likely off the table.
That means he cannot afford to be ranked behind any of the following if he wants to be in with a shout of the ATG top 10. That's ...
E. Holyfield - Undisputed champion. Wins over prime Bowe and Tyson. Ran Lewis close on fight 2. Won his fourth and final share of the title aged 38. 6x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
M. Tyson - youngest ever champion. Undisputed. 9x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
W. Klitschko - 11 year world title reign. 13x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
J. Frazier - undisputed champion. Winner of fight of the century as the first man to beat Ali. Three fights with Ali. Two with Foreman. Multiple fighter of the year awards.
Hypothetical Fury - undispute champion. 5x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
Highlights include wins over 39 year old Klitschko and a 37 year old Usyk, plus the Wilder Trilogy
Is that really enough to displace Frazier, Klitschko, Tyson, and Holyfield?
Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23
Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko
I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?
Wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk.
The first undisputed champion since L. Lewis with wins over 2 HOFers.
They are great achievements, yes. But how about this:
To be within a decent shout of ATG top 10 status he really needs to be top 5 within the last 50 years because, whilst I'm no historian, some of those old timers have some mean looking records!
So let's say that Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holmes are more than likely off the table.
That means he cannot afford to be ranked behind any of the following if he wants to be in with a shout of the ATG top 10. That's ...
E. Holyfield - Undisputed champion. Wins over prime Bowe and Tyson. Ran Lewis close on fight 2. Won his fourth and final share of the title aged 38. 6x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
M. Tyson - youngest ever champion. Undisputed. 9x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
W. Klitschko - 11 year world title reign. 13x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
J. Frazier - undisputed champion. Winner of fight of the century as the first man to beat Ali. Three fights with Ali. Two with Foreman. Multiple fighter of the year awards.
Hypothetical Fury - undispute champion. 5x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
Highlights include wins over 39 year old Klitschko and a 37 year old Usyk, plus the Wilder Trilogy
Is that really enough to displace Frazier, Klitschko, Tyson, and Holyfield?
Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23
Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko
I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?
Wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk.
The first undisputed champion since L. Lewis with wins over 2 HOFers.
They are great achievements, yes. But how about this:
To be within a decent shout of ATG top 10 status he really needs to be top 5 within the last 50 years because, whilst I'm no historian, some of those old timers have some mean looking records!
So let's say that Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holmes are more than likely off the table.
That means he cannot afford to be ranked behind any of the following if he wants to be in with a shout of the ATG top 10. That's ...
E. Holyfield - Undisputed champion. Wins over prime Bowe and Tyson. Ran Lewis close on fight 2. Won his fourth and final share of the title aged 38. 6x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
M. Tyson - youngest ever champion. Undisputed. 9x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
W. Klitschko - 11 year world title reign. 13x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
J. Frazier - undisputed champion. Winner of fight of the century as the first man to beat Ali. Three fights with Ali. Two with Foreman. Multiple fighter of the year awards.
Hypothetical Fury - undispute champion. 5x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
Highlights include wins over 39 year old Klitschko and a 37 year old Usyk, plus the Wilder Trilogy
Is that really enough to displace Frazier, Klitschko, Tyson, and Holyfield?
I don't believe in numerology, in sacred numbers, in magic of number 10. Hypothetical Fury will not be ATG 10, but ATG 11? Fine!
Highlights include wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk. 3 wins over 2 HOFers. BTW, how many HOFers did W. Klitschko beat?
Re: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 10:13
by BigDoofus
big lennox wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 08:22. By contrast, Fury lost to McDermott and Ngannou
Finkel wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 21:23
Here’s a rough list of the top 10 heavies of the last 50 years. Pretty non-controversial:
M. Ali, J. Frazier, G. Foreman, L. Holmes, M. Tyson, E. Holyfield, R. Bowe (could switch out for K. Norton), L. Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko
I think he would belong among that top 10, for sure. But ATG top 10 with wins over 39-year-old W. Klitschko, 37-year-old O. Usyk, D. Wilder, D. Whyte, and D. Chisora?
Wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk.
The first undisputed champion since L. Lewis with wins over 2 HOFers.
They are great achievements, yes. But how about this:
To be within a decent shout of ATG top 10 status he really needs to be top 5 within the last 50 years because, whilst I'm no historian, some of those old timers have some mean looking records!
So let's say that Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holmes are more than likely off the table.
That means he cannot afford to be ranked behind any of the following if he wants to be in with a shout of the ATG top 10. That's ...
E. Holyfield - Undisputed champion. Wins over prime Bowe and Tyson. Ran Lewis close on fight 2. Won his fourth and final share of the title aged 38. 6x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
M. Tyson - youngest ever champion. Undisputed. 9x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
W. Klitschko - 11 year world title reign. 13x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
J. Frazier - undisputed champion. Winner of fight of the century as the first man to beat Ali. Three fights with Ali. Two with Foreman. Multiple fighter of the year awards.
Hypothetical Fury - undispute champion. 5x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
Highlights include wins over 39 year old Klitschko and a 37 year old Usyk, plus the Wilder Trilogy
Is that really enough to displace Frazier, Klitschko, Tyson, and Holyfield?
Are you not pulling up all the people you name for not fighting Vitali?
omalley wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 04:58
Wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk.
The first undisputed champion since L. Lewis with wins over 2 HOFers.
They are great achievements, yes. But how about this:
To be within a decent shout of ATG top 10 status he really needs to be top 5 within the last 50 years because, whilst I'm no historian, some of those old timers have some mean looking records!
So let's say that Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holmes are more than likely off the table.
That means he cannot afford to be ranked behind any of the following if he wants to be in with a shout of the ATG top 10. That's ...
E. Holyfield - Undisputed champion. Wins over prime Bowe and Tyson. Ran Lewis close on fight 2. Won his fourth and final share of the title aged 38. 6x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
M. Tyson - youngest ever champion. Undisputed. 9x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
W. Klitschko - 11 year world title reign. 13x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
J. Frazier - undisputed champion. Winner of fight of the century as the first man to beat Ali. Three fights with Ali. Two with Foreman. Multiple fighter of the year awards.
Hypothetical Fury - undispute champion. 5x world title wins against top 10 opponents.
Highlights include wins over 39 year old Klitschko and a 37 year old Usyk, plus the Wilder Trilogy
Is that really enough to displace Frazier, Klitschko, Tyson, and Holyfield?
I don't believe in numerology, in sacred numbers, in magic of number 10. Hypothetical Fury will not be ATG 10, but ATG 11? Fine!
Highlights include wins over the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion W. Klitschko and the reigning WBA, IBF, WBO champion O. Usyk. 3 wins over 2 HOFers. BTW, how many HOFers did W. Klitschko beat?
The trouble with devaluing Klitschko like that is you undermine Fury's own case for a high placement.
Re: Fury's legacy after the Usyk fight
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 10:38
by jwfg
Finkel wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 10:25
I see what I'm dealing with now. The board's resident Fury scholar/apologist. Christ he's boring
