BoxRec

Good points DW.

Nobud... yeah, they were great body punchers, another two who could stop you with body shots. I think it was his fight with Kobayashi where Arguello lifted him up with a body shot, sort of like what Foreman did to Frazier with the last uppercut. Still, I think Chavez went to the body more consistently than they did, though that's just my impression. There were a few fights where Duran head hunted a bit. But, yeah, like DW said, it's subjective, and its hard to say. I'm just throwing the question out there, Chavez was an amazing body puncher.

I agree with I feel fine. Chavez edges them out because he was just more dedicated and consistent with his body shot. Not to mention the way he was surgically able to land his left hook to the liver with such precision and accuracy, throughout the fight. It was amazing to watch the sustained affects on his opponents as they wilted a little more round after round..

I Feel Fine wrote: Nobud... yeah, they were great body punchers, another two who could stop you with body shots. I think it was his fight with Kobayashi where Arguello lifted him up with a body shot, sort of like what Foreman did to Frazier with the last uppercut. Still, I think Chavez went to the body more consistently than they did, though that's just my impression. There were a few fights where Duran head hunted a bit. But, yeah, like DW said, it's subjective, and its hard to say. I'm just throwing the question out there, Chavez was an amazing body puncher.

I don't disagree with the notion he went to the body more, but perhaps it was mainly due to it being his bread & butter. Guys like Duran had more of a varied offensive repertoire.

Really does come down to styles & what they decide to employ.

Hearns is another that could throw wicked lefthooks to the body when he chose to do so, although he's famous for his other punches.

nobudius wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote: Nobud... yeah, they were great body punchers, another two who could stop you with body shots. I think it was his fight with Kobayashi where Arguello lifted him up with a body shot, sort of like what Foreman did to Frazier with the last uppercut. Still, I think Chavez went to the body more consistently than they did, though that's just my impression. There were a few fights where Duran head hunted a bit. But, yeah, like DW said, it's subjective, and its hard to say. I'm just throwing the question out there, Chavez was an amazing body puncher.

I don't disagree with the notion he went to the body more, but perhaps it was mainly due to it being his bread & butter. Guys like Duran had more of a varied offensive repertoire.

Really does come down to styles & what they decide to employ.

Hearns is another that could throw wicked lefthooks to the body when he chose to do so, although he's famous for his other punches.

I agree totally.

Iran Barkley said the hardest shot he was ever hit with was a left to the body by Hearns.

I Feel Fine wrote:Well name some of the lower level ones who you would put ahead of Oscar P4P all time so we can get an idea of who you're thinking of.

Well, to start, these guys in my book, does not enter the top 100, and in my view, they were better than De La Hoya:

Bob Montgomery
Sammy Angott
Harry Wills
Jack "Kid" Berg
Vicente Saldivar
Owen Moran
James J. Jeffries
Floyd Patterson
Ken Buchanan
Terry Norris
Myung Woo Yuh
Jung Koo Chang
Nicolino Locche
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Billy Petrolle
Ismael Laguna
Holman Williams
Jimmy Bivins
Fidel LaBarba
Manny Pacquiao
Nino Benvenutti
Gene Fullmer
Battling Nelson
Young Griffo
Joe Jeanette
Young Corbett III
Freddie Steele
Jack McAuliffe
Tommy Gibbons
Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Sammy Mandell
Ad Wolgast
Jack Sharkey
Joey Giardello
Flash Elorde
Felix "Tito" Trinidad
Charles "Kid" McCoy
Billy Graham
Fritzie Zivic
Lou Ambers
Baby Arizmendi
Joe Lynch
Jack Delaney
Harold Johnson
Mike Gibbons

44 great ones...and I am looking for more....In which of these great fighters you DISAGREE that De La Hoya was better than them?

You're lookin' good, Elmer. Don't forget the following luminaries...

Clifford Hicks
Eric Crumble
George Chuvalo
Johnny Paychek
Granberry
Santoro Diaz
Hasim Rahman
Joe Bugner
Goodnight, Irene

The thing about your list elmer is that there are some guys in there who could be top 100 P4P, so even if I did rank them ahead of Oscar that wouldn't necessarily mean that Oscar wouldn't still make the top 100.

That said, some of those guys are clearly not ahead of Oscar. Trinidad? Norris? Rodriguez? Zivic? I would not rank them ahead of Oscar.

I'd rank Luis Rodriguez higher than Oscar.

Granted, I really don't know what that would have to do with a thread relating to Chavez.

I guess I'm focusing a little too much on Rodriguez's losses. You might be right about that one.

Trying to stay on topic on this forum is like pulling teeth.

I Feel Fine wrote:The thing about your list elmer is that there are some guys in there who could be top 100 P4P, so even if I did rank them ahead of Oscar that wouldn't necessarily mean that Oscar wouldn't still make the top 100.

That said, some of those guys are clearly not ahead of Oscar. Trinidad? Norris? Rodriguez? Zivic? I would not rank them ahead of Oscar.

Why not Terry Norris nor Fritzie Zivic are not better than Oscar De La Hoya?

You are right, there are guys in that list that could be top 100 pound per pound in other lists. It was very DIFFICULT for me to rank the top 100 very, very, very best pound per pound. Some guys in that list hurt me to cut them out like Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Bob Montgomery, Vicente Saldivar, Harry Wills, Billy Petrolle, Floyd Patterson, Harold Johnson, Nino Benvenutti, and Jimmy Bivins for example. All of them EXCELLENT BOXERS.

Like someone else said: "How did we end up talking about Oscar?"

Which of his losses stick out to you? If you look at some of the fighters he lost to, it should actually strengthen his resume.

He just had the misfortune of being in the same period as Griffith.

Also, a funny thing regarding Zivic is, on a given night, he could probably beat anyone.

elmersalsa wrote:Like someone else said: "How did we end up talking about Oscar?"

Eh, I think you had a hand in it. Plus, as I said, find a thread on this forum that doesn't get off topic.

Anyway, another thing I wanted to say about Chavez is that he often gets a lot of criticism from people because of the idea that he had an "inflated record." As Haugen said, he fought "Tijuana taxi drivers" or something to that effect. But I think its clear that Chavez was just doing what Robinson and Moore and Duran and other past fighters did; rather than fighting once or twice a year, he'd stay active and take tune up fights to stay busy and stay sharp. It would be nice if fighters today did that more often, but I guess they make so much money now that they figure they don't have to.

I Feel Fine wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Like someone else said: "How did we end up talking about Oscar?"

Eh, I think you had a hand in it. Plus, as I said, find a thread on this forum that doesn't get off topic.

Anyway, another thing I wanted to say about Chavez is that he often gets a lot of criticism from people because of the idea that he had an "inflated record." As Haugen said, he fought "Tijuana taxi drivers" or something to that effect. But I think its clear that Chavez was just doing what Robinson and Moore and Duran and other past fighters did; rather than fighting once or twice a year, he'd stay active and take tune up fights to stay busy and stay sharp. It would be nice if fighters today did that more often, but I guess they make so much money now that they figure they don't have to.

That's part of the reason why I'm personally a big fan of both Edgar Sosa and Christian Mijares, both are World Titleists and both are the type to fight 4-5 times a year and even against good quality opposition.

The Duran-Chavez discussion is back, so I figured I'd just bring this thread back and we can have that discussion in here, if anyone wants to continue it, rather than have it in the Viruet thread.

I would just say I agree with diamond weapon that Duran was clearly a naturally bigger man than Chavez. Which I would say is a good thing as far as my argument is concerned. But, either way, my point was that Duran showed toughness taking on monsters who were way bigger and harder hitting than Chavez. I think Duran showed plenty of times that he could not only survive, but thrive, in a toe to toe fight, and though I think it would be close, I think that even in that circumstance that Duran beats Chavez. Duran is a harder hitter, has better defense, maybe a little faster at Lightweight, at their primes at Lightweight their stamina would be about the same, and I think their chins are about the same. Duran may have quit in the face of a boxer who he couldn't do anything with, but when he had someone in front of him who he could hit he never showed any hesitance; he wouldn't quit in that situation. And I would again say that Chavez quit in fights too, so its not like Chavez never had that experience.

Again, I think it would be a tough fight, but I think Duran wins, even if only by a close decision.