Julio Cesar Chavez
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Julio Cesar Chavez
I don't think I have ever once seen him mentioned on this forum (at least not outside of the context of the first Meldick Taylor fight), and I think this forum could use the distraction from Heavyweights, so anything you want to say about Chavez, good or bad; go ahead.
He is my GF favourite fighter.
Some how she is obsessed with him. Dont ask me why
he is a ugly man and not the most graceful of fighters, but
he is one damned good fighter.
She became a fan after she saw his loss to De LaHoya, then
she researched into his career, and became a fan. And YouTube'd
him.
Its funny how some styles and fighters appeal to people.
I think he is a damned talented man, and has accomplished so much
in his LOOOONG career.
Its funny that you should post this thread as she has asked me to
buy a career set of all his fights.
Some how she is obsessed with him. Dont ask me why
he is a ugly man and not the most graceful of fighters, but
he is one damned good fighter.
She became a fan after she saw his loss to De LaHoya, then
she researched into his career, and became a fan. And YouTube'd
him.
Its funny how some styles and fighters appeal to people.
I think he is a damned talented man, and has accomplished so much
in his LOOOONG career.
Its funny that you should post this thread as she has asked me to
buy a career set of all his fights.
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
Okay, some random observations...
A) Doesn't deserve any indignation for the first fight with Taylor. Worked his ass off all night, & I don't for one minute think the stoppage was some grand robbery, Chavez earned it.
B) Plain got his ass kicked by Whitaker, & the covershot of The Ring with a posing Sweet Pea & the caption, "Hey Julio, Who's Number One Now?" will forever be a favourite of mine
C) The big question - Would he have beaten De La Hoya in his prime? Yes
D) The little question - Would he have beaten Tszyu? At 140lbs? Blindfolded & drunk out of his brain
E) Screw him for being at Vargas' side trying to snatch a sliver of reflected glory in the lead-up to the De La Hoya-Vargas fight, but being nowhere to be seen immediately afterward.
F) Sorry Pryor fans, at 140lbs. this guy would've eaten your boy up, no if's, &'s or but's
G) The roughest, toughest, meanest SOB ever to step into a ring in my lifetime. Bar f---in' none.
A) Doesn't deserve any indignation for the first fight with Taylor. Worked his ass off all night, & I don't for one minute think the stoppage was some grand robbery, Chavez earned it.
B) Plain got his ass kicked by Whitaker, & the covershot of The Ring with a posing Sweet Pea & the caption, "Hey Julio, Who's Number One Now?" will forever be a favourite of mine
C) The big question - Would he have beaten De La Hoya in his prime? Yes
D) The little question - Would he have beaten Tszyu? At 140lbs? Blindfolded & drunk out of his brain
E) Screw him for being at Vargas' side trying to snatch a sliver of reflected glory in the lead-up to the De La Hoya-Vargas fight, but being nowhere to be seen immediately afterward.
F) Sorry Pryor fans, at 140lbs. this guy would've eaten your boy up, no if's, &'s or but's
G) The roughest, toughest, meanest SOB ever to step into a ring in my lifetime. Bar f---in' none.
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15678
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
re
Chavez was one of my favorite modern fighters. Meldrick Taylor was certainly ahead on points in their fight and I wish he was given the benefit of the doubt in those last seconds of round twelve, but Chavez beat the hell out of Taylor and ruined Taylor. Taylor landed a lot more punches, but Chavez landed truly punishing shots which essentially ended Taylor's career.
In what was probably his first big fight, as well as his first title bout, Chavez, in a very solid manner, beat the hell out of Martinez. Martinez was certainly no slouch at 33-1-2 (20 KO) but he was no match for Chavez. It should also be mentioned about Martinez how close he came to beating Azumah Nelson in their first fight a couple of years after the Chavez-Martinez fight. Martinez kept it very close with Nelson, which Nelson pretty much destroyed him in the rematch, but a young Chavez demonstrated in that fight that he was a real, class Mexican warrior.
Against Whitaker...I thought Whitaker won, but it wasn't some blow-out. Again, Whitaker landed more punches and out-boxed Chavez, but more punches landed does not always win a fight...though Whitaker should have gotten the decision.
In his prime I don't think there is a jr. welterweight who could beat him. Pryor at his best would be a great fight, but I think Chavez comes out on top. Chavez was one of the best punchers in history. Not one-punch power, but the manner in which he mixed his punches effectively was brilliant and it simply broke fighters in two!
Chavez, at his best, had one of the greatest chins of all-time. Edwin Rosario, who was one of the heaviest hitting fighters in history hit Chavez with his absolute best shots and Chavez just waded right through them with no effect to destroy Rosario...which I think this fight was the best of Chavez' career.
He was bitchy and a bit whiny when he did lose, but then again...most of the greats are...maybe not as bad, but losing is a hard thing to accept when you had done nothing but win for close to 20 years.
As great as he was on offense...his defensive skills are mostly ignored, but then again, when a fighter has the kind of offense that Chavez had it is hard to look at any other aspect. He ability to roll with punches was un-matched and his ability to avoid the brunt of a punch with a half-an-inch movement of his head was a skill few fighters ever obtain.
Greg Haugen was one tough sob. The fight with Chavez was a good example of why an opponent should never insult Chavez in a disparaging way. Chavez quickly just broke down an opponent who was known to be a tough guy.
Roger Mayweather was an excellent fighter who had a vicious punch and Chavez went right through him and the shots that did land against Chavez barely even made him blink.
Meldrick Taylor, the night he lost to Chavez would have beaten any other fighter in history on that night, but rarely do we see such a great fighter ruined in one bout the way that Taylor was ruined. A lot of times a fighter is ruined simply just due to losing a fight nowadays, but Taylor had everything beaten out of him by Chavez. I think Taylor deserved the win, but it is hard to criticize Richard Steele because Taylor plain and simply did not respond to Steele at all. Plus, Lou Duva jumped up on the ringside, which was the main reason that Taylor was not able to focus on Steele, so it is just as much the fault of Duva jumping up on the ropes, as well as his ill-advised final instructions to Taylor for that last round, but Steele did as referee’s are trained to do and he stopped a fight in which only a few seconds remained. But in truth, just one more vicious punch may have ended Taylor’s life as he was in very, very bad condition.
Hector Camacho was one of the best pure boxers of the 1980s, which he drastically altered his manner after his controversial fight with Edwin Rosario, but prior to the Rosario fight, Camacho was one of the P4P best in the world. Camacho was still a top boxer when he faced Chavez and he really showed what kind of heart he had in that bout as Chavez beat the living hell out of Camacho. I think Chavez put more of a beating on Camacho than either De La Hoya, or Trinidad did..and all three were vicious beatings, but Chavez nearly stopped Camacho and truly beat his ass!
Frankie Randall seemed to come out of nowhere to beat Chavez, but those who were in “the know” of boxing knew that Randall was a hell of a fighter, but no one expected him to really give Chavez a tough time, but that is exactly what he did. He clearly beat Chavez in decisive style knocking down the steel-chinned Mexican warrior. I thought that Randall should have won the second fight as well, but he was at the end of another bad decision (he had previously lost a close match against Edwin Rosario in the later 1980s in which he should have won) and Chavez was awarded a technical decision in eight rounds. I honestly felt that Chavez was on the verge of being stopped in this second bout.
Plain and simply one of the greatest body punchers in history. His body work just took everything out of an opponent and it was beautiful to watch. Although there are dozens of examples I am quickly reminded of his 1992 bout with Angel Hernandez, who came into the fight unbeaten at 37-0-2 (22 KO). Now Hernandez was certainly no HOF fighter, but he was very much a solid contender with speed and skill and Chavez went right after him breaking his body down and viciously stopping Hernandez in round five. This fight was typical Chavez and a good fight to show Chavez’ ability as this was the type of blueprint that Chavez followed in his fights and the outcome was almost always the same…regardless of what type of fighter he was facing and it was only after he had drastically slowed down that he was beatable and even then it took a great fighter having a great night to beat Chavez.
In my opinion, a prime Chavez beats a prime De La Hoya…not easily, but in the end De La Hoya is systematically broken down and stopped late in the championship rounds.
Now that he is retired Chavez will and should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. I think that he is a p4p all-time great who deserves to be in an all-time top 25 p4p list and possibly even top 10…I haven’t really looked into that kind of list. Chavez was one of the best combination-punchers that I ever saw and when all of his physical assets are put together Chavez was as formidable a fighter as the ring had ever seen and at his best he rates right beside every other great at his various weights.
In what was probably his first big fight, as well as his first title bout, Chavez, in a very solid manner, beat the hell out of Martinez. Martinez was certainly no slouch at 33-1-2 (20 KO) but he was no match for Chavez. It should also be mentioned about Martinez how close he came to beating Azumah Nelson in their first fight a couple of years after the Chavez-Martinez fight. Martinez kept it very close with Nelson, which Nelson pretty much destroyed him in the rematch, but a young Chavez demonstrated in that fight that he was a real, class Mexican warrior.
Against Whitaker...I thought Whitaker won, but it wasn't some blow-out. Again, Whitaker landed more punches and out-boxed Chavez, but more punches landed does not always win a fight...though Whitaker should have gotten the decision.
In his prime I don't think there is a jr. welterweight who could beat him. Pryor at his best would be a great fight, but I think Chavez comes out on top. Chavez was one of the best punchers in history. Not one-punch power, but the manner in which he mixed his punches effectively was brilliant and it simply broke fighters in two!
Chavez, at his best, had one of the greatest chins of all-time. Edwin Rosario, who was one of the heaviest hitting fighters in history hit Chavez with his absolute best shots and Chavez just waded right through them with no effect to destroy Rosario...which I think this fight was the best of Chavez' career.
He was bitchy and a bit whiny when he did lose, but then again...most of the greats are...maybe not as bad, but losing is a hard thing to accept when you had done nothing but win for close to 20 years.
As great as he was on offense...his defensive skills are mostly ignored, but then again, when a fighter has the kind of offense that Chavez had it is hard to look at any other aspect. He ability to roll with punches was un-matched and his ability to avoid the brunt of a punch with a half-an-inch movement of his head was a skill few fighters ever obtain.
Greg Haugen was one tough sob. The fight with Chavez was a good example of why an opponent should never insult Chavez in a disparaging way. Chavez quickly just broke down an opponent who was known to be a tough guy.
Roger Mayweather was an excellent fighter who had a vicious punch and Chavez went right through him and the shots that did land against Chavez barely even made him blink.
Meldrick Taylor, the night he lost to Chavez would have beaten any other fighter in history on that night, but rarely do we see such a great fighter ruined in one bout the way that Taylor was ruined. A lot of times a fighter is ruined simply just due to losing a fight nowadays, but Taylor had everything beaten out of him by Chavez. I think Taylor deserved the win, but it is hard to criticize Richard Steele because Taylor plain and simply did not respond to Steele at all. Plus, Lou Duva jumped up on the ringside, which was the main reason that Taylor was not able to focus on Steele, so it is just as much the fault of Duva jumping up on the ropes, as well as his ill-advised final instructions to Taylor for that last round, but Steele did as referee’s are trained to do and he stopped a fight in which only a few seconds remained. But in truth, just one more vicious punch may have ended Taylor’s life as he was in very, very bad condition.
Hector Camacho was one of the best pure boxers of the 1980s, which he drastically altered his manner after his controversial fight with Edwin Rosario, but prior to the Rosario fight, Camacho was one of the P4P best in the world. Camacho was still a top boxer when he faced Chavez and he really showed what kind of heart he had in that bout as Chavez beat the living hell out of Camacho. I think Chavez put more of a beating on Camacho than either De La Hoya, or Trinidad did..and all three were vicious beatings, but Chavez nearly stopped Camacho and truly beat his ass!
Frankie Randall seemed to come out of nowhere to beat Chavez, but those who were in “the know” of boxing knew that Randall was a hell of a fighter, but no one expected him to really give Chavez a tough time, but that is exactly what he did. He clearly beat Chavez in decisive style knocking down the steel-chinned Mexican warrior. I thought that Randall should have won the second fight as well, but he was at the end of another bad decision (he had previously lost a close match against Edwin Rosario in the later 1980s in which he should have won) and Chavez was awarded a technical decision in eight rounds. I honestly felt that Chavez was on the verge of being stopped in this second bout.
Plain and simply one of the greatest body punchers in history. His body work just took everything out of an opponent and it was beautiful to watch. Although there are dozens of examples I am quickly reminded of his 1992 bout with Angel Hernandez, who came into the fight unbeaten at 37-0-2 (22 KO). Now Hernandez was certainly no HOF fighter, but he was very much a solid contender with speed and skill and Chavez went right after him breaking his body down and viciously stopping Hernandez in round five. This fight was typical Chavez and a good fight to show Chavez’ ability as this was the type of blueprint that Chavez followed in his fights and the outcome was almost always the same…regardless of what type of fighter he was facing and it was only after he had drastically slowed down that he was beatable and even then it took a great fighter having a great night to beat Chavez.
In my opinion, a prime Chavez beats a prime De La Hoya…not easily, but in the end De La Hoya is systematically broken down and stopped late in the championship rounds.
Now that he is retired Chavez will and should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. I think that he is a p4p all-time great who deserves to be in an all-time top 25 p4p list and possibly even top 10…I haven’t really looked into that kind of list. Chavez was one of the best combination-punchers that I ever saw and when all of his physical assets are put together Chavez was as formidable a fighter as the ring had ever seen and at his best he rates right beside every other great at his various weights.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Legend, is the only word I can use that could somehow sum up the great Julio Cesar Chavez. By the time he fought De La Hoya, he was a shell, but still gave the Golden Boy two of his greatest fights. He is by some over-rated as they try to tear down his 90+ fight win streak stating that the majority of those wins were against tomato cans from his homeland, but this man in my opinion...was on equal ground to Roberto Duran, if not in terms of his skills and power, it was definately by his immense fan base.
I remember watching Chavez go up against Greg Haugen when I was a kid, and it just blew me away that so many people had came to see that one fight, when everybody knew Haugen didnt have a snow balls chance in hell to defeat Chavez...he was just tremendous.
I remember watching Chavez go up against Greg Haugen when I was a kid, and it just blew me away that so many people had came to see that one fight, when everybody knew Haugen didnt have a snow balls chance in hell to defeat Chavez...he was just tremendous.
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Nice thread, if I don't say so myself.
Just a few responses:
Firstly to robinson... I think Chavez would be appealing to a lot of people. His style was the most crowd pleasing style I can think of. He rarely moved backwards, usually loaded up on shots, could land nice combinations, took punches but also showed a great chin (which are both pleasing to a crowd) and it looked like every punch he threw was a bone breaking shot.
GI... I really think Taylor should have gotten the benefit of the doubt, but that's just my opinion. I don't know if he beats De La Hoya in his prime, but I think I might favor him. And I agree that Chavez is probably the best Jr. Welterweight of all time, and possibly also the greatest Jr. Lightweight? I love his KO of Roger Mayweather in the first fight at 130, by the way, that is just about the greatest knock out I've ever seen.
Elmer... yeah, but maybe if he had been faster he might not have been quite as aggressive? You wonder how little changes like that to a fighter might radically alter how they fight.
Barry... I thought the first five rounds of Whitaker-Chavez could have gone either way, but I thought Whitaker won the rest of those rounds. I agree that some go overboard and present it as if Whitaker won every round, which he didn't, but I do think that the fight could justifiably be called one-sided. And I personally don't think that Chavez could have ever beaten Whitaker. I haven't seen Chavez's fight with Martinez, which is one fight I've wanted to see for a long time, since it was his first title fight. I agree about his great fight with Rosario and it is impressive to see some of the shots Chavez took in that fight, though you touch on Chavez's defense, and I also think that he showed some decent defense in that fight in the sense that he smothered Rosario and didn't allow him to get leverage on his shots. I agree with your comments about the Haugen fight, but I would also say that I don't think Chavez needed to break Haugen down, I think the reason why the fight lasted five rounds was because Chavez carried Haugen. I think he could have KO'd Haugen in the first if he had wanted to, he hurt him with every shot. As for Camacho, I agree that it might have been the worst beating Camacho took; and more importantly Chavez got to Camacho before Oscar and Tito did, so he had a fresher Camacho. You have to give Camacho credit for taking those three beatings from those big punchers, even if he didn't put up much of a fight.
Henry... I'm sure that all those Mexican fans would have came to see Chavez regardless of the opponent, but I'm sure that Haugen's insults to Mexican fans might have played a part in it. They came to see Chavez run Haugen over.
Just a few responses:
Firstly to robinson... I think Chavez would be appealing to a lot of people. His style was the most crowd pleasing style I can think of. He rarely moved backwards, usually loaded up on shots, could land nice combinations, took punches but also showed a great chin (which are both pleasing to a crowd) and it looked like every punch he threw was a bone breaking shot.
GI... I really think Taylor should have gotten the benefit of the doubt, but that's just my opinion. I don't know if he beats De La Hoya in his prime, but I think I might favor him. And I agree that Chavez is probably the best Jr. Welterweight of all time, and possibly also the greatest Jr. Lightweight? I love his KO of Roger Mayweather in the first fight at 130, by the way, that is just about the greatest knock out I've ever seen.
Elmer... yeah, but maybe if he had been faster he might not have been quite as aggressive? You wonder how little changes like that to a fighter might radically alter how they fight.
Barry... I thought the first five rounds of Whitaker-Chavez could have gone either way, but I thought Whitaker won the rest of those rounds. I agree that some go overboard and present it as if Whitaker won every round, which he didn't, but I do think that the fight could justifiably be called one-sided. And I personally don't think that Chavez could have ever beaten Whitaker. I haven't seen Chavez's fight with Martinez, which is one fight I've wanted to see for a long time, since it was his first title fight. I agree about his great fight with Rosario and it is impressive to see some of the shots Chavez took in that fight, though you touch on Chavez's defense, and I also think that he showed some decent defense in that fight in the sense that he smothered Rosario and didn't allow him to get leverage on his shots. I agree with your comments about the Haugen fight, but I would also say that I don't think Chavez needed to break Haugen down, I think the reason why the fight lasted five rounds was because Chavez carried Haugen. I think he could have KO'd Haugen in the first if he had wanted to, he hurt him with every shot. As for Camacho, I agree that it might have been the worst beating Camacho took; and more importantly Chavez got to Camacho before Oscar and Tito did, so he had a fresher Camacho. You have to give Camacho credit for taking those three beatings from those big punchers, even if he didn't put up much of a fight.
Henry... I'm sure that all those Mexican fans would have came to see Chavez regardless of the opponent, but I'm sure that Haugen's insults to Mexican fans might have played a part in it. They came to see Chavez run Haugen over.
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generic screen name
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 16:28
re
The thing about the Chavez-Haugen bout...Haugen really insulted Chavez and in a way it looked as if he had insulted the Mexican people, which seems to be commonplace for a certain group of people in the USA today, but Chavez went into that bout with intentions of inflicting serious harm on Haugen. He in a way carried Haugen...not because he wanted the bout to last for the sake of lasting, but he cariied Haugen for no other reason other than to inflict all of the damage that he possibly could before Haugen would finally fold and Haugen took a vicious, very vicious beating in those five rounds.
I think Chavez could have ended it within three rounds, I believe Haugen was too tough to break down and fold in one round, but the fight just lasted as long as Haugen could take it because Chavez went after Haugen with bad intentions. He went after Camacho with those same bad intentions, but he was past it at that point. I think Chavez of pre-1991 would have stopped Camacho, but then again...Camacho had a big heart and there is no one who can deny that...and I never liked Camacho, but fighters who prove themselves should be given the proper credit whether we like them, or hate them!
I think Chavez could have ended it within three rounds, I believe Haugen was too tough to break down and fold in one round, but the fight just lasted as long as Haugen could take it because Chavez went after Haugen with bad intentions. He went after Camacho with those same bad intentions, but he was past it at that point. I think Chavez of pre-1991 would have stopped Camacho, but then again...Camacho had a big heart and there is no one who can deny that...and I never liked Camacho, but fighters who prove themselves should be given the proper credit whether we like them, or hate them!
Re: re
I read an interview with Haugen a couple of years later where he denied ever making those comments, that it was in fact Don King who was saying that Haugen had referred to them as wetbacks etc. Then on his way to the ring Haugen was getting cups of piss thrown on him. And then the poor guy gets busted up by an in form Chavez. Just wasn't his day was it...barry wrote:The thing about the Chavez-Haugen bout...Haugen really insulted Chavez and in a way it looked as if he had insulted the Mexican people, which seems to be commonplace for a certain group of people in the USA today, but Chavez went into that bout with intentions of inflicting serious harm on Haugen. He in a way carried Haugen...not because he wanted the bout to last for the sake of lasting, but he cariied Haugen for no other reason other than to inflict all of the damage that he possibly could before Haugen would finally fold and Haugen took a vicious, very vicious beating in those five rounds.
I think Chavez could have ended it within three rounds, I believe Haugen was too tough to break down and fold in one round, but the fight just lasted as long as Haugen could take it because Chavez went after Haugen with bad intentions. He went after Camacho with those same bad intentions, but he was past it at that point. I think Chavez of pre-1991 would have stopped Camacho, but then again...Camacho had a big heart and there is no one who can deny that...and I never liked Camacho, but fighters who prove themselves should be given the proper credit whether we like them, or hate them!
re
I heard Haugen say many derogatory statements leading up to the bout...though I do not recall him making the wetback comment...I heard about it, but I never heard it come directly from Haugen. But you are absolutely right...it was not his day!
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I don't recall it exactly, but one thing that Haugen said was something weird like "Chavez hasn't beat anyone except for Tijuana taxi drivers."
Of course Chavez fought some no-hopers, but he beat a lot of really good fighters. Of course sometimes fighters say something that they don't really mean to hype up interest in a fight, but that still really stupid for Haugen to say something like that.
Chavez was a great fighter. He applied great pressure, had underrated boxing skills, had a great chin, and was as tough as nails.
Of course Chavez fought some no-hopers, but he beat a lot of really good fighters. Of course sometimes fighters say something that they don't really mean to hype up interest in a fight, but that still really stupid for Haugen to say something like that.
Chavez was a great fighter. He applied great pressure, had underrated boxing skills, had a great chin, and was as tough as nails.
Chavez was something of a throwback. He wanted to get in with everyone. I loved him for that.
He tried to get Whittaker earlier on at 135 but Duva apparently said no. I like to think that he might have won that one just because Chavez is a bit of a favourite of mine...
His main weakness was that he didn't have that extra beta of speed or power.
He tried to get Whittaker earlier on at 135 but Duva apparently said no. I like to think that he might have won that one just because Chavez is a bit of a favourite of mine...
His main weakness was that he didn't have that extra beta of speed or power.
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
Just my take, but I can't see it ever happening. Whitaker just had (any version) of him figured, & while Chavez was better at 135 than 147, Whitaker is to my thinking the best of the 135lbers. Ever.Ezzard wrote:Chavez was something of a throwback. He wanted to get in with everyone. I loved him for that.
He tried to get Whittaker earlier on at 135 but Duva apparently said no. I like to think that he might have won that one just because Chavez is a bit of a favourite of mine...
His main weakness was that he didn't have that extra beta of speed or power.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Pernell Whitaker was quite possibly the best fighter in the last 30 years, least in the terms of defense and technique...but even at that, I still think Chaves edges Whitaker...At 135, it would have been one helluva fight...the controversial draw they had between eachother couldn't overshadow either man's masterful performance...was a great fight.
Speaking of that, we should all sit down and score that fight round by round.
Speaking of that, we should all sit down and score that fight round by round.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
A legitimate great fighter, but sorry, one of the most over-rated fighters of the past 30 years. He had that nice looking record, and aggressive, 'macho' style and attitude which made him a big favorite of many, and he had very good skills and as noted was a killer body puncher. Look . . .who did he actually beat? Taylor is by far his best win and its ending is highly controversial (he was also losing by a wide margin at the time of the stoppage)
You have a past-it Camacho, and very good but not great veterans Ramirez and Rosario. I don't rate glass-jawed Mayweather very highly. Beyond that, a lot of ok fighters with inflated records like Alberto Cortes and Johnny Duplessis. Whitaker, by any objective observer, took him to school. Randall kicked his butt twice. Sure, he was slightly past his best at that point but not close to being shot.
It's not his fault 135-140 wasn't exactly loaded with great talent in the late 80s, but from what I saw I think he'd lose to many of the great boxers at 135. Prime Chavez-Prime Oscar is a toss-up IMO. Many Oscar haters will scream foul but an unbiased observer can't realistically state that's an easy fight for Julio.
You have a past-it Camacho, and very good but not great veterans Ramirez and Rosario. I don't rate glass-jawed Mayweather very highly. Beyond that, a lot of ok fighters with inflated records like Alberto Cortes and Johnny Duplessis. Whitaker, by any objective observer, took him to school. Randall kicked his butt twice. Sure, he was slightly past his best at that point but not close to being shot.
It's not his fault 135-140 wasn't exactly loaded with great talent in the late 80s, but from what I saw I think he'd lose to many of the great boxers at 135. Prime Chavez-Prime Oscar is a toss-up IMO. Many Oscar haters will scream foul but an unbiased observer can't realistically state that's an easy fight for Julio.
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Diamond WEAPON
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 19 Nov 2006, 01:32
I think Chavez would've beaten Whitaker at 135. By the time Chavez got to 140 he was beginning his decline in reflexes and Whitaker was definitely closer to his prime than Chavez when they actually fought. Chavez at 130 and 135 was like an unstoppable force of nature. As he got older and engaged in war after war, it started to obviously wear on him a little, and despite the fact that he absolutely brutalized Meldrick Taylor, Taylor himself was pretty much fighting the fight of his life that night as well, hitting Chavez with a ton of blindingly fast punches and snapping Chavez' head back more than pretty much any fighter who'd been in with him. All that said though, Chavez even at 140 is one of the best fighters ever.HomicideHenry wrote:Pernell Whitaker was quite possibly the best fighter in the last 30 years, least in the terms of defense and technique...but even at that, I still think Chaves edges Whitaker...At 135, it would have been one helluva fight...the controversial draw they had between eachother couldn't overshadow either man's masterful performance...was a great fight.
Speaking of that, we should all sit down and score that fight round by round.
A great, great fighter that was a SORE, SORE, loser. Sure, this characteristic is evident in many great fighters, but I just can't give him a free pass for those Randall fights.
His actions in the second Randall bout were a disgrace-I haven't been able to look at him in the same way again. Some fights & fighters are like that.
His actions in the second Randall bout were a disgrace-I haven't been able to look at him in the same way again. Some fights & fighters are like that.
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
I would favor Whitaker to beat him at the lower weights as well. I think Whitaker was better defensively than Taylor, and I think Whitaker was a tougher fighter than he gets credit for. And in terms of strategy it didn't seem that Chavez had any idea as to what he should do with Whitaker.
Also, Chavez wasn't at 147, he was at 142, while Whitaker was at 145. That's definitely to Whitaker's advantage and does not help my argument, but I thought that should be pointed out for the sake of accuracy. It should be said, though, that he fought Whitaker soon after Haugen. He was in top form against Greg, I don't see why he would suddenly be finished against Whitaker.
As for Chavez's wins, I think its more an accumulation of wins over top names rather than any one big win, like the one over Taylor, that makes him great. I do think some overrate him, though. You'll often hear casual fans call him the greatest fighter of all time, and I don't see the case for that at all.
What about the idea that was Chavez was possibly the best 130 pounder? I'm sure that he would at least makes most people's top 3.
Also, Chavez wasn't at 147, he was at 142, while Whitaker was at 145. That's definitely to Whitaker's advantage and does not help my argument, but I thought that should be pointed out for the sake of accuracy. It should be said, though, that he fought Whitaker soon after Haugen. He was in top form against Greg, I don't see why he would suddenly be finished against Whitaker.
As for Chavez's wins, I think its more an accumulation of wins over top names rather than any one big win, like the one over Taylor, that makes him great. I do think some overrate him, though. You'll often hear casual fans call him the greatest fighter of all time, and I don't see the case for that at all.
What about the idea that was Chavez was possibly the best 130 pounder? I'm sure that he would at least makes most people's top 3.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
He had his best wins at 135, I don't even rank him at 130, what did he do at 130 besides beat Rocky Lockride and Roger M?I Feel Fine wrote:I would favor Whitaker to beat him at the lower weights as well. I think Whitaker was better defensively than Taylor, and I think Whitaker was a tougher fighter than he gets credit for. And in terms of strategy it didn't seem that Chavez had any idea as to what he should do with Whitaker.
Also, Chavez wasn't at 147, he was at 142, while Whitaker was at 145. That's definitely to Whitaker's advantage and does not help my argument, but I thought that should be pointed out for the sake of accuracy. It should be said, though, that he fought Whitaker soon after Haugen. He was in top form against Greg, I don't see why he would suddenly be finished against Whitaker.
As for Chavez's wins, I think its more an accumulation of wins over top names rather than any one big win, like the one over Taylor, that makes him great. I do think some overrate him, though. You'll often hear casual fans call him the greatest fighter of all time, and I don't see the case for that at all.
What about the idea that was Chavez was possibly the best 130 pounder? I'm sure that he would at least makes most people's top 3.
And at 135, he loses to the likes of Ike Williams (badly), Leonard, Armstrong, Duran, Ross, Whitaker, Loche and Buchanan. Chavez vs Ortiz, Canzoneri, and Ambers would be BRUTAL fights . . . I'm not sure JC beats them either as he wouldn't out-tough them and they knew every trick in the book.
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ringsider
- Heavyweight
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
It is true that Chavez doesn't really have a win over a "legend" or truly great fighter. However, other fighters that are considered great don't either.
Chavez, however, does have several wins over very good fighters; and really didn't have many close calls until he was past it.
Beating Roger Mayweather (twice), Rocky Lockridge,Edwin Rosario, Hector Camacho, Greg Haugen, Terrence Alli, and Tony Lopez is a strong indication that he was a special fighter. In almost all of these he was dominating.
Also, because Chavez kept moving up in weight and didn't really have the longevity to be considered the best at any one weight, sometimes his career isn't appreciated. However, had he performed well in the fights that he did have at 130,135, and 140. He showed enough to show that had he stayed at any one of the 3 for most of his career, he would be considered one of the very best at that weight.
Chavez, however, does have several wins over very good fighters; and really didn't have many close calls until he was past it.
Beating Roger Mayweather (twice), Rocky Lockridge,Edwin Rosario, Hector Camacho, Greg Haugen, Terrence Alli, and Tony Lopez is a strong indication that he was a special fighter. In almost all of these he was dominating.
Also, because Chavez kept moving up in weight and didn't really have the longevity to be considered the best at any one weight, sometimes his career isn't appreciated. However, had he performed well in the fights that he did have at 130,135, and 140. He showed enough to show that had he stayed at any one of the 3 for most of his career, he would be considered one of the very best at that weight.