BoxRec

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:

TerribleTerry wrote:

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:I remember sitting in Saitama few years ago watching PRIDE with about 30,000 people there seing a great show, great fights, amazing production, prime time TV slot on Japanese TV, the lot. It was the biggest thing going at the time

18 months later they were out of business



Bare that in mind when discussing the wonder of UFC

Nothing like telling part of the story to mislead and subvert eh KG?

Pride's management/ownership was heavily 'influenced' by the Japanese mafia. The TV companies that backed Pride backed out when the criminal connections where highlighted in the media.

This left Pride primed for a takeover bid, which White et al instigated.

There isnt any aspect of any boxing, wrestling or MMA company that isnt controlled, nevermind 'influenced' by the Yakuza, same with the entertainment business in Japan. Its no secret, everyone knows it and accepts it, its been that way for the last 50 + years.

Anywhere you go to in Japan that is drawing a crown/money and you see dodgy blokes wearing sunglasses and dark suits driving BMW's

Thats not why PRIDE failed

PRIDE failed because they promised too much, couldnt fill area's, couldnt deliver the TV ratings they once did and owed a lot of people money and favours.

Hilarious to think people really beleive PRIDE failed because of "mafia connections"

KG you have already proved to me on many occassions that you know little about MMA above and beyond a few weeks spent holidaying in the far east - stories of which you continually recount like the boring drunk uncle at a party that no one wants to get caught talking to :( - all the bull5hit and bluster in the world won't change that.

Also other MMA Promotional Companies haven't been mentioned that are doing pretty decent business: Affliction, WEC, DREAM and K1.

My main concern now is that the major stars are either long in the tooth, retiring or have lost recently. Pacman may make the transition to major PPV star, like Floyd did after the DLH fight, but Boxing requires a stable of stars that can easily achieve buy rates of 0.5+. Recently that hasn't been happening.

[quote="TerribleTerry

TerribleTerry wrote:

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:I remember sitting in Saitama few years ago watching PRIDE with about 30,000 people there seing a great show, great fights, amazing production, prime time TV slot on Japanese TV, the lot. It was the biggest thing going at the time

18 months later they were out of business



Bare that in mind when discussing the wonder of UFC
Nothing like telling part of the story to mislead and subvert eh KG?

Pride's management/ownership was heavily 'influenced' by the Japanese mafia. The TV companies that backed Pride backed out when the criminal connections where highlighted in the media.

This left Pride primed for a takeover bid, which White et al instigated

There isnt any aspect of any boxing, wrestling or MMA company that isnt controlled, nevermind 'influenced' by the Yakuza, same with the entertainment business in Japan. Its no secret, everyone knows it and accepts it, its been that way for the last 50 + years.

Anywhere you go to in Japan that is drawing a crown/money and you see dodgy blokes wearing sunglasses and dark suits driving BMW's

Thats not why PRIDE failed

PRIDE failed because they promised too much, couldnt fill area's, couldnt deliver the TV ratings they once did and owed a lot of people money and favours.

Hilarious to think people really beleive PRIDE failed because of "mafia connections"

KG you have already proved to me on many occassions that you know little about MMA above and beyond a few weeks spent holidaying in the far east - stories of which you continually recount like the boring drunk uncle at a party that no one wants to get caught talking to :( - all the bull5hit and bluster in the world won't change that.

Well i have spent most of my adult life living in Asia and have contributed a few shabbily written articles to the wrestling observer on the fall of PRIDE.


On the subject of influence of the Yakuza in the entertainment business in Japan, i know a tad more than you do.

My main concern now is that the major stars are either long in the tooth, retiring or have lost recently. Pacman may make the transition to major PPV star, like Floyd did after the DLH fight, but Boxing requires a stable of stars that can easily achieve buy rates of 0.5+. Recently that hasn't been happening.

Edited by mod

I don’t want boxing to become like ufc in any way as its too false and way too much BULLSHIT for me, not once have a ever heard a commentator saying anything negative about a fight no matter how boring it is as though telling the truth will open peoples eyes to the fact that ufc isn’t all the exciting! Having seen a card last night it’s the biggest Myth that they have competitive bouts as I saw Mismatches all night and I’ve yet to ever see an exciting ufc fight that has drama and end to end action to match boxing in any way, its just a poor product marketed brilliantly to stupid people who can’t think for themselves!

Why don't you stop worrying about the future of boxing as it doing just fine thank you very much, its probably in its most healthy position for a long time and we can expect more classic fights in 2009

Saying boxing star's are long in the tooth is actually the funniest thing you've said dude, worry more about your sport ufc with its 3 main star’s (Couture, Liddell and Ortiz) all being very long in the tooth and pretty much all finished and without them, no more big ppv's eaither!

Our 2 Biggest star's Mayweather and Pacman are 31 and 29 and will have a shot at 1 million plus PPV’S especially if they are matched together. Guys like Cotto 27, Margarito 30, Pavlik 26 and maybe Williams 26 will all post sold 500,000 ppv’s if matched either together or with other big names

Boxing will always survive, its survived 2 world wars and a depression in America and will always have swings in its popularity as its generic and part of the culture but people will always come out for the big fights no matter what.

Ufc is a business company and like Ratners will soon be gone as like any company its run for profit, its already been bust and bailed out once but it sure aint gonna happen a 2nd time in these economic times!

The main thing UFC and other MMA organisations have over boxing is the competitive nature of the fights that run from the main event, all the way down the undercard......UFC has a card on dec 27th which is stacked with big names......as with a lot of UFC events, fans attending the show or paying for it at home are as good as guaranteed value for money......rarely does one come away from a UFC event underwhelmed by the night's action.......in boxing, this has become not only a regular occurance, but acceptable in the eyes of some promoters

UFS's up right now, boxing is down, Pro Wrestling is down


5 years ago Pro Wrestling was up, boxing was up and UFC couldnt get arrested


In 5 years time it will all be different again, i rememeber reading a thing in BN about how boxing could learn from WWF about 10 years ago, such a thing would be laughable now





relax guys

exittored wrote:

My main concern now is that the major stars are either long in the tooth, retiring or have lost recently. Pacman may make the transition to major PPV star, like Floyd did after the DLH fight, but Boxing requires a stable of stars that can easily achieve buy rates of 0.5+. Recently that hasn't been happening.

Edited by mod

I don’t want boxing to become like ufc in any way as its too false and way too much BULLSHIT for me, not once have a ever heard a commentator saying anything negative about a fight no matter how boring it is as though telling the truth will open peoples eyes to the fact that ufc isn’t all the exciting! Having seen a card last night it’s the biggest Myth that they have competitive bouts as I saw Mismatches all night and I’ve yet to ever see an exciting ufc fight that has drama and end to end action to match boxing in any way, its just a poor product marketed brilliantly to stupid people who can’t think for themselves!

Why don't you stop worrying about the future of boxing as it doing just fine thank you very much, its probably in its most healthy position for a long time and we can expect more classic fights in 2009

Saying boxing star's are long in the tooth is actually the funniest thing you've said dude, worry more about your sport ufc with its 3 main star’s (Couture, Liddell and Ortiz) all being very long in the tooth and pretty much all finished and without them, no more big ppv's eaither!

Our 2 Biggest star's Mayweather and Pacman are 31 and 29 and will have a shot at 1 million plus PPV’S especially if they are matched together. Guys like Cotto 27, Margarito 30, Pavlik 26 and maybe Williams 26 will all post sold 500,000 ppv’s if matched either together or with other big names

Boxing will always survive, its survived 2 world wars and a depression in America and will always have swings in its popularity as its generic and part of the culture but people will always come out for the big fights no matter what.

Ufc is a business company and like Ratners will soon be gone as like any company its run for profit, its already been bust and bailed out once but it sure aint gonna happen a 2nd time in these economic times!

That is quite possibly the most ill-informed post I've ever seen on Boxrec.

Congratulations

Edited by mod.

If you want to call me a wanker, feel free to do it without using a quote, I won't get upset

People, please remember the below forum rule:

5. No personal insults

Cut it out, or go to ESB.

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:[quote="TerribleTerry

TerribleTerry wrote:
KG you have already proved to me on many occassions that you know little about MMA above and beyond a few weeks spent holidaying in the far east - stories of which you continually recount like the boring drunk uncle at a party that no one wants to get caught talking to :( - all the bull5hit and bluster in the world won't change that.

Well i have spent most of my adult life living in Asia and have contributed a few shabbily written articles to the wrestling observer on the fall of PRIDE.


On the subject of influence of the Yakuza in the entertainment business in Japan, i know a tad more than you do.

Forgive me if I dont believe you KG - your status as a flaky poster who relies on over blown statements to make an impact precedes you: boy who cried wolf and all that.

Still, if you would like to post one or two of your shabbily written articles I would be glad to read them - I am always open to new opinions/angles on a subject.

Something tells me you wont be able to locate the articles but there you go..

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:People, please remember the below forum rule:

5. No personal insults

Cut it out, or go to ESB.

Apologies, Emerson & Exittored.

it's funny reading posts from people on the payroll (or bandwagon jumpers) saying ufc is now mainstream - absolute rubbish.

football is mainstream in europe and nothing else comes close. how does ufc compare to baseball and gridiron in the states? not very well.

it's a minority sport followed in the states by young rednecks (oops sorry, white 18-30 demographic in blah blah blah). 20 years ago the karate choppers were ruling the world and now it's some fools rolling about on the floor.

and to those who love it - how much money filters down to the fighters? how is ufc not a cartel? doesnt that bother you?

lowersmiths wrote:it's funny reading posts from people on the payroll (or bandwagon jumpers) saying ufc is now mainstream - absolute rubbish.

football is mainstream in europe and nothing else comes close. how does ufc compare to baseball and gridiron in the states? not very well.

it's a minority sport followed in the states by young rednecks (oops sorry, white 18-30 demographic in blah blah blah). 20 years ago the karate choppers were ruling the world and now it's some fools rolling about on the floor.

and to those who love it - how much money filters down to the fighters? how is ufc not a cartel? doesnt that bother you?

Extracts from the Business section of MSNBC:

"The enterprise, if sold today, would be worth about $1 billion, Forbes estimates.

The key is UFC’s popularity among young males, a desirable demographic for advertisers. According to Tony Ponturo, Anheuser-Busch vice president of global media and sports marketing, its research shows 76 percent of male beer drinkers between the ages of 21-27 are fans of the UFC. Within that group, UFC is second in popularity among pro sports only to the NFL. Result? A-B struck a three-year sponsorship agreement with the mixed martial arts association earlier this year.

It isn’t the only well-known name to embrace UFC. Harley-Davidson inked a pact with the group earlier this year, and Visa introduced a UFC card in June. The Octagon, the UFC’s version of a boxing ring, boasts advertisements on the mat from Toyota, Burger King and others. Fighter’s trunks are bedecked with sponsors such as Fry’s.

And what, exactly, is luring young males and others to follow the UFC, to the extent where the league sold more than 5 million pay-per-view events in 2007? The barefoot behemoths (UFC fighters, not the audience) punch, kick, and tackle to try to best their opponent. In other words, they must be well-versed in a number of disciplines, from boxing to karate to wrestling.

Despite what can seem like chaos, there are a few strict rules, such as: No head-butting or kicking the downed opponent, and no strikes to the spine or the back of the head. Eye-gouging, a primitive practice once allowed, has been eliminated.

The U.S. audience is only one group that has been enraptured by the quick-paced battles. UFC broadcasts into more than 150 countries.

After looking to gain acceptance for years, UFC has finally entered the mainstream."

Good to know that the likes of MSNBC are also stating "rubbish"

Good to know that the likes of MSNBC are also stating "rubbish"

Actually Deserter, with your post, you've pretty much validated what lowersmiths was saying UFC is just the Ratners of the mma world, good on paper but not the bottom line which is profit and like Ratners it will one day go bust and dissapear!

exittored wrote:

Good to know that the likes of MSNBC are also stating "rubbish"

Actually Deserter, with your post, you've pretty much validated what lowersmiths was saying UFC is just the Ratners of the mma world, good on paper but not the bottom line which is profit and like Ratners it will one day go bust and dissapear!

You should be a politician given that rather appalling attempt at 'spin'. So the likes of Forbes give it a valuation of $1 billion because they don't perceive it as having any profitable potential then?
What are the circumstances surrounding UFC's operational structure that make you so sure it will go bust and disappear, as given the way it's increasing its PPV numbers, its merchandising and its ability to attract mainstream commercial sponsors I'm really struggling to understand your rationale?
As for the Ratners reference, it's a terrible one for you to choose as prior to Ratner's inappropriate public statement his business was in a robust, profitable state - it was purely his appalling PR in the wake of that stupid remark that damaged the company. How is that in any way comparable to the UFC?

Lowersmiths raises a far more valid point regarding the 'cartel' reference - if the fighters reach the stage where they are marketable brands in their own right then the temptation to become free agents will be huge and will place the UFC's business model under stress. But that's the sole serious legitimate threat to the model that I can perceive at the moment, and even that can be appeased if fighters are able to generate independent revenue streams through sponsors etc.

RE: fighters as 'marketable brands', i thought Chuck Liddell kindof self-marketed... or at least had his own range of dvd's/t-shirts etc?

I take it, from what i am reading, these are all basically UFC branded products then and he just earns a small pice of it>?

in that case I can see what you mean about problem for the business model being that fighters may want to control all their own image rights, etc.....

One worrying thing along the lines of image rights etc, was a couple of weeks ago (discussed on the off-topic board) - the Jon Fitch, Josh Koscheck business with image rights for computer games. Basically, Jon Fitch + Co wouldn't sign away their image rights for an indefinate period of time - so Dana White cut their contracts with the ufc. It's all been sorted out now, but apparently there were some pretty strong armed tactics being used by the UFC towards the fighters...

Some interesting comments here:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/ufc-sp ... ey-403312/

The Valuation of 1 billion dosent actually mean jack to be honest as lots of companies in the past with those kind of valuations and have gone bust!

Ratners was not in a robust, profitable state before his appalling PR gaffe, that mearly put the final nail in the coffin for the company. Why will the ufc soon go bust? very easily as once the growth of the company stops which will happen in 2009 and increased overheads i.e fighters wages, marketing; come into effect, they'll start having to borrow to maintain their business and than fall short on those payments and declare bankruptcy which will will happen by 2011 for sure

ufc is in its last years so i hope you enjoy it but dont worry there'll always be mma to watch in one form or another, just dont come to a boxing website to talk about it thank you very much

exittored wrote:
ufc is in its last years so i hope you enjoy it but dont worry there'll always be mma to watch in one form or another, just dont come to a boxing website to talk about it thank you very much

Again, who are you to tell people what they can and can't discuss?

The UFC is being discussed here in comparison to boxing - and the people here who are actually capable of having a discussion, are looking at what boxing can learn from a model which is undoubtedly successful and appealing to boxings main demographic.

If you are unwilling, or too naive, to see what boxing could learn from the UFC, that's fine - continue to bury your head in the sand and keep those fingers crossed that the fastest growing sport and promotion in the world goes bust next year.

If you don't want to read about it, again - don't enter the thread or discussion - but quit telling people what they should and shouldn't discuss.

I'm sure if the mods deem this thread "innapropriate" for the boxing forum, they'll move it.

Terry D wrote:Only one way to settle this. A unified rules, spandexed-up session of Greco-Roman wrestling, in a tub of KY Jelly, I suggest we send our women to fight this one for us.

I heartily agree, & would like to come forward to put forward my girlfriend for this, on the proviso that yours is in too.

Early rumours from my woman's training camp indicate that she may even be willing to ditch the spandex, if offered enough money.

Datsue wrote:

Terry D wrote:Only one way to settle this. A unified rules, spandexed-up session of Greco-Roman wrestling, in a tub of KY Jelly, I suggest we send our women to fight this one for us.

I heartily agree, & would like to come forward to put forward my girlfriend for this, on the proviso that yours is in too.

Early rumours from my woman's training camp indicate that she may even be willing to ditch the spandex, if offered enough money.

In which case, I would like to nominate my mother as referree. She's kind of like Herb Dean, only white, and with less hair.