BoxRec

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:12

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 05:35

He didn't fight Haye, so it's valid. The difference is, when Haye pulled out of a date he actually had a cut. Fury fought a cage fighter and pulled out of the Usyk date because of three cuts, he himself said he didn't have. Luke's a laughing stock.

“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:05

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:12
“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

He's got plenty to be ashamed of.

Getting banjoed by a novice
Homophobia
Misogyny
Half baked citations from bible
Steroid ban
Treating Peter Fury badly
Binning Hennessey and getting successfully sued for it

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:05

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

BigDoofus wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:12
“Luke’s a laughing stock” because Haye pulled out of two fights with him and Joshua turned down 2 fights with him in 9 months.

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

Alas, we musty disagree. Getting knocked down on the way to a split decision against a debutant with zero amateur experience is embarrassing IMO.

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:16

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:05

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

Alas, we musty disagree. Getting knocked down on the way to a split decision against a debutant with zero amateur experience is embarrassing IMO.

it is indeed

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:15

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:05

jwfg wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 06:15

No, he's a laughing stock because of what happened in the Ngannou fight, the constant lying and pulling out of the Usyk date.

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

He's got plenty to be ashamed of.

Getting banjoed by a novice
Homophobia
Misogyny
Half baked citations from bible
Steroid ban
Treating Peter Fury badly
Binning Hennessey and getting successfully sued for it

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

The Ngannou fight to me neither damaged nor enhanced his career.

If he had completely dominated Ngannou, you'd be saying how embarrassing it was that he even bothered with such an unqualified opponent. He couldn't win either way there.

Personally I'd say it worked out better for everybody that the fight was competitive. Made it something to talk about at least.

it probably did, fair point.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:37

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:15

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:05

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

He's got plenty to be ashamed of.

Getting banjoed by a novice
Homophobia
Misogyny
Half baked citations from bible
Steroid ban
Treating Peter Fury badly
Binning Hennessey and getting successfully sued for it

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

The Ngannou fight to me neither damaged nor enhanced his career.

If he had completely dominated Ngannou, you'd be saying how embarrassing it was that he even bothered with such an unqualified opponent. He couldn't win either way there.

Personally I'd say it worked out better for everybody that the fight was competitive. Made it something to talk about at least.

A terrible performance against a debutant doesn't effect his legacy? Mr Mesh, I have lots of respect for you as a poster, but you're going to have to explain this one to me.

Floyd Mayweather's fans still praise him to the moon for a fight he lost with Jose Luis Castillo. He's undefeated. The GOAT. TBE. All that sh*t.

Because at the end of the day the only thing people care about it is the result.

Floyd got the decision. Therefore the fact that he should've lost didn't affect his legacy.

Fury DESERVED the decision. He Won a fight with difficulty that people thought he should've won easily, but...HE WON. Legitimately.

If a guy getting a decision he didn't deserve in a fight he should've lost didn't hurt his legacy. Why would a guy getting a decision he DID deserve in a fight he legitimately won hurt his legacy?

It's not his shining moment obviously, but neither is it a detriment to his career.

If Ngannou winds up having modest success in the Boxing world it will look better with time. If Ngannou somehow upsets AJ it'll suddenly be viewed as a quality win.

Even if none of that happens though. What you have with Fury vs Ngannou, is a guy who fought a big, hard hitting guy, and outboxed him.

Ngannou was a Debutant in Pro Boxing, yes. He was not a Rank Amateur who had never fought before in his life. He was a UFC Champion. Becoming a Champion in any Combat Sport requires a lot of Dedication, and Training.

Ngannou if he were matched like a complete novice would probably mop the floor with most Heavyweights with less than 10 fights.

Hell let's just say as a Hypothetical question that AJ beats Ngannou, but he also struggles with Ngannou. Loses rounds. Gets hurt, and has what is considered to be a tough time in doing it.

Does Fury's performance still look bad then?

Ngannou would get up to possibly #5 in the WBC rankings then.

Um in this hypothetical situation where Ngannou, an MMA fighter in his pro debut gets a razor thin SD loss and drops the soon to be hypothetical undisputed champion Fury, and then follows it up by beating the guy with the best resume in the division...it is not a positive thing for Fury's legacy or for boxing.

Sure, Fury might get a slight bump in how his Ngannou "win" is viewed. However, the era as a whole would be severely diminished. Which, bringing it back to the question, would undermine Fury's attempts to enter the ATG top 10.

Hearts and minds: boxing would lose even more potential fans and athletes to MMA. All on Hypothetical Undisputed Lineal Inactive Champion, Tyson Fury's watch

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 15:53 Hell let's just say as a Hypothetical question that AJ beats Ngannou, but he also struggles with Ngannou. Loses rounds. Gets hurt, and has what is considered to be a tough time in doing it.

Does Fury's performance still look bad then?

No, not really, but boxing would !

That said, you'd think AJ will be dialled in and win fairly comfortably. Fury was clearly complacent and undercooked.

Finkel wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 17:16 Um in this hypothetical situation where Ngannou, an MMA fighter in his pro debut gets a razor thin SD loss and drops the soon to be hypothetical undisputed champion Fury, and then follows it up by beating the guy with the best resume in the division...it is not a positive thing for Fury's legacy or for boxing.

Sure, Fury might get a slight bump in how his Ngannou "win" is viewed. However, the era as a whole would be severely diminished. Which, bringing it back to the question, would undermine Fury's attempts to enter the ATG top 10.

Hearts and minds: boxing would lose even more potential fans and athletes to MMA. All on Hypothetical Undisputed Lineal Inactive Champion, Tyson Fury's watch

How much success would Ngannou have to have before he would simply be considered a good fighter in his own right, and not scoffed at as some sort of joke.

I mean if he's able to consistently have success with everyone he fights. It's possible that he's just a good fighter, and an exception to the rule. Is it not?

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

Hearts and minds play a big part in it sorry.

John L, Jeffries and Dempsey became practically folk lore in their reputation. They were still in a lot of 'experts' top 10 ATGs up until something like 40-50 years ago, even though their fight records were shockingly bad.

Louis and Ali made positive change on society. Foreman and Mike Tyson captured a generations attention with their personalities, Holyfield and Lewis grabbed it with fistic prowess.

But the likes of Fury's standing in boxing history is already being rubbished - in 5 or 10 years after he is retired he will be remembered no higher than Nik Valuev. He has done nothing positive for the sport - as mentioned above it's been consistently negative. His feeble minded attempts have back fired somewhat - the fake mental health advocate who makes nasty videos to name call opponents by typically insulting their appearance; donations and bets made to charity which he then doesn't honour.

It all adds up when people consider who was a great in the sport.

tonyevs wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 04:09

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

Hearts and minds play a big part in it sorry.

John L, Jeffries and Dempsey became practically folk lore in their reputation. They were still in a lot of 'experts' top 10 ATGs up until something like 40-50 years ago, even though their fight records were shockingly bad.

Louis and Ali made positive change on society. Foreman and Mike Tyson captured a generations attention with their personalities, Holyfield and Lewis grabbed it with fistic prowess.

But the likes of Fury's standing in boxing history is already being rubbished - in 5 or 10 years after he is retired he will be remembered no higher than Nik Valuev. He has done nothing positive for the sport - as mentioned above it's been consistently negative. His feeble minded attempts have back fired somewhat - the fake mental health advocate who makes nasty videos to name call opponents by typically insulting their appearance; donations and bets made to charity which he then doesn't honour.

It all adds up when people consider who was a great in the sport.

Hearts and minds?
You seem to have already forgotten about a rape conviction.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 06:23

tonyevs wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 04:09

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

Hearts and minds play a big part in it sorry.

John L, Jeffries and Dempsey became practically folk lore in their reputation. They were still in a lot of 'experts' top 10 ATGs up until something like 40-50 years ago, even though their fight records were shockingly bad.

Louis and Ali made positive change on society. Foreman and Mike Tyson captured a generations attention with their personalities, Holyfield and Lewis grabbed it with fistic prowess.

But the likes of Fury's standing in boxing history is already being rubbished - in 5 or 10 years after he is retired he will be remembered no higher than Nik Valuev. He has done nothing positive for the sport - as mentioned above it's been consistently negative. His feeble minded attempts have back fired somewhat - the fake mental health advocate who makes nasty videos to name call opponents by typically insulting their appearance; donations and bets made to charity which he then doesn't honour.

It all adds up when people consider who was a great in the sport.

Hearts and minds?
You seem to have already forgotten about a rape conviction.

I agree, imagine naming your son after a rapist.

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 16:12

BigDoofus wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 06:23

tonyevs wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 04:09

Hearts and minds play a big part in it sorry.

John L, Jeffries and Dempsey became practically folk lore in their reputation. They were still in a lot of 'experts' top 10 ATGs up until something like 40-50 years ago, even though their fight records were shockingly bad.

Louis and Ali made positive change on society. Foreman and Mike Tyson captured a generations attention with their personalities, Holyfield and Lewis grabbed it with fistic prowess.

But the likes of Fury's standing in boxing history is already being rubbished - in 5 or 10 years after he is retired he will be remembered no higher than Nik Valuev. He has done nothing positive for the sport - as mentioned above it's been consistently negative. His feeble minded attempts have back fired somewhat - the fake mental health advocate who makes nasty videos to name call opponents by typically insulting their appearance; donations and bets made to charity which he then doesn't honour.

It all adds up when people consider who was a great in the sport.

Hearts and minds?
You seem to have already forgotten about a rape conviction.

I agree, imagine naming your son after a rapist.

I think when you gouge people's eyes out you're not really a moral kinda child-namer....

But a nice guy though
Someone you can trust.

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 17:14

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 16:12

BigDoofus wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 06:23
Hearts and minds?
You seem to have already forgotten about a rape conviction.

I agree, imagine naming your son after a rapist.

I think when you gouge people's eyes out you're not really a moral kinda child-namer....

Very true

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 18:24

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 17:14

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 16:12

I agree, imagine naming your son after a rapist.

I think when you gouge people's eyes out you're not really a moral kinda child-namer....

Very true

Ironically his in-ring prowess made a viewer want to gouge their own eyes....

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:37

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:15

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jan 2024, 14:05

He won the Ngannou fight. If the most embarrassing thing he ever did to stain his career was win a fight. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.

He's got plenty to be ashamed of.

Getting banjoed by a novice
Homophobia
Misogyny
Half baked citations from bible
Steroid ban
Treating Peter Fury badly
Binning Hennessey and getting successfully sued for it

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

The Ngannou fight to me neither damaged nor enhanced his career.

If he had completely dominated Ngannou, you'd be saying how embarrassing it was that he even bothered with such an unqualified opponent. He couldn't win either way there.

Personally I'd say it worked out better for everybody that the fight was competitive. Made it something to talk about at least.

It isn’t the just the result, or the nature of it, that is going to effect his legacy.

It’s the fact he took the fight in the first place.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 06:23

tonyevs wrote: ↑07 Jan 2024, 04:09

His personal behavior isn't going to affect the way he's ranked in Boxing history I'm afraid.

Hearts and minds play a big part in it sorry.

Hearts and minds?
You seem to have already forgotten about a rape conviction.

That kinda makes the point too.
Mike Tyson has a rape conviction yet is still boxing royalty.

Tyson Fury has proved to be nothing but a Pound Shop Tyson .. Mike Tyson conjures up an image of menace, power and destruction. Tyson Fury conjures up an image of idiocy, sloth and obesity .. the only comparisons is that both have funny voices.

tonyevs wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:57 But Wilder actually did bear a very good resemblance to the guy who Fury beat. I suggest you take a look at pretty much any of the 3 fights they had.
Wilder looked as shlt in all of those too. If Wilder had managed to land that big punch in the 10th round on Parker and folded him, most would be saying he was back to his best too.

Usyk was a large part of tainting Joshuas standing. 2 consecutive defeats can do that to a fighter some considered the best.
That leaves Usyk as being seen as the top guy in his division for most.

I’m no expert Tony but wasn’t Wilder’s timing hopelessly off against Parker compared to the Fury fights ? And I know he’s not famed for his output but he seemed to barely throw a punch against Parker

CaptainSpacerod wrote: ↑08 Jan 2024, 14:17

tonyevs wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 02:57 But Wilder actually did bear a very good resemblance to the guy who Fury beat. I suggest you take a look at pretty much any of the 3 fights they had.
Wilder looked as shlt in all of those too. If Wilder had managed to land that big punch in the 10th round on Parker and folded him, most would be saying he was back to his best too.

Usyk was a large part of tainting Joshuas standing. 2 consecutive defeats can do that to a fighter some considered the best.
That leaves Usyk as being seen as the top guy in his division for most.

I’m no expert Tony but wasn’t Wilder’s timing hopelessly off against Parker compared to the Fury fights ? And I know he’s not famed for his output but he seemed to barely throw a punch against Parker

I've never seen the fight where Wilder was constantly on the attack. He puts all of his hopes on 1 shot at a time. Always has.

I can't think of any time I've seen him throw an effective combination.

Yeah fair comment