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Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 12:51
by Ambling Alp II
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 11:12
Do you have any idea how it's possible that Buster, who beat Tyson, didn't achieve even a small fraction of what he did? Tyson won 12 title fights and Buster 1, Tyson won 3 fights that Buster lost to, even before their fight the odds were 42-1 for Tyson, are people blind or did Douglas only wake up for that one night?
Obviously, Tyson had the better overall career. However, Douglas did have other decent wins. He beat Berbick, McCall and Page. He had a lot of ability, but seldom put it all together like he did against Tyson.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 13:41
by apollo creed
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 12:39
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑11 Mar 2024, 23:20
Nobody did what he did to larry holmes and spinks, two atg fighters
He was inconsistent and yes marketing always helps but those 2 wins are incredible
Plenty of big hitting heavyweights could have kayoed Spinks but never had the chance. Spinks had very few fights at heavyweight. Certainly a Lewis, Ruddock. Tua, Wlad Klitschko, etc could have stopped him early given the opportunity.
You're spot on. He was a small hw coming up from lhw. Buster would've stopped him too.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 13:45
by apollo creed
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 11:12
Do you have any idea how it's possible that Buster, who beat Tyson, didn't achieve even a small fraction of what he did? Tyson won 12 title fights and Buster 1, Tyson won 3 fights that Buster lost to, even before their fight the odds were 42-1 for Tyson, are people blind or did Douglas only wake up for that one night?
Tyson beat over the hill, mediocre fighters. Buster stopped a young Tyson. End of discussion.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 14:03
by gilgamesh
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 13:45
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 11:12
Do you have any idea how it's possible that Buster, who beat Tyson, didn't achieve even a small fraction of what he did? Tyson won 12 title fights and Buster 1, Tyson won 3 fights that Buster lost to, even before their fight the odds were 42-1 for Tyson, are people blind or did Douglas only wake up for that one night?
Tyson beat over the hill, mediocre fighters. Buster stopped a young Tyson. End of discussion.
Buster also lost to Tony Tucker who Mike Tyson beat, and was smashed way easier by Holyfield than Tyson was.
I wonder if Tyson's management would've ever went for a Buster rematch or if they would've just been content to write him off as a bad style matchup for their guy?
Boxing history is funny like that. Where a guy can have a win over someone, but not necessarily be regarded by history as the better fighter.
That is definitely the case with Buster Douglas beating Mike Tyson.
He definitely beat the sh*t out of Mike. No one can take that away.
But I think very, very few would rate him ahead of Mike on an all time list.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 15:46
by Jakub079
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 13:41
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 12:39
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑11 Mar 2024, 23:20
Nobody did what he did to larry holmes and spinks, two atg fighters
He was inconsistent and yes marketing always helps but those 2 wins are incredible
Plenty of big hitting heavyweights could have kayoed Spinks but never had the chance. Spinks had very few fights at heavyweight. Certainly a Lewis, Ruddock. Tua, Wlad Klitschko, etc could have stopped him early given the opportunity.
You're spot on. He was a small hw coming up from lhw. Buster would've stopped him too.
This probably puts Larry Holmes in a very bad place, doesn't it? he lost to a small LHW and he was only 35 years old and a long-lived champion. How is it possible that at the age of 42 he gave such a difficult fight to Mercer and Holyfield and Oliver McCall, who fought twice with prime Lennox Lewis, said that 45-year-old Holmes was his toughest rival... damn
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 16:29
by apollo creed
gilgamesh wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 14:03
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 13:45
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 11:12
Do you have any idea how it's possible that Buster, who beat Tyson, didn't achieve even a small fraction of what he did? Tyson won 12 title fights and Buster 1, Tyson won 3 fights that Buster lost to, even before their fight the odds were 42-1 for Tyson, are people blind or did Douglas only wake up for that one night?
Tyson beat over the hill, mediocre fighters. Buster stopped a young Tyson. End of discussion.
Buster also lost to Tony Tucker who Mike Tyson beat, and was smashed way easier by Holyfield than Tyson was.
I wonder if Tyson's management would've ever went for a Buster rematch or if they would've just been content to write him off as a bad style matchup for their guy?
Boxing history is funny like that. Where a guy can have a win over someone, but not necessarily be regarded by history as the better fighter.
That is definitely the case with Buster Douglas beating Mike Tyson.
He definitely beat the sh*t out of Mike. No one can take that away.
But I think very, very few would rate him ahead of Mike on an all time list.
They guided Mike through other route to rebuild his ko artist profile with some facile but well ranked opponents as the plan to build up a big money fight with Holyfield. Of course that guys like Tua, Bowe, Ike or Foreman were out of the question.
Indeed its funny. Buster made history in boxing by beating Iron Mike Tyson.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 16:36
by apollo creed
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 15:46
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 13:41
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 12:39
Plenty of big hitting heavyweights could have kayoed Spinks but never had the chance. Spinks had very few fights at heavyweight. Certainly a Lewis, Ruddock. Tua, Wlad Klitschko, etc could have stopped him early given the opportunity.
You're spot on. He was a small hw coming up from lhw. Buster would've stopped him too.
This probably puts Larry Holmes in a very bad place, doesn't it? he lost to a small LHW and he was only 35 years old and a long-lived champion. How is it possible that at the age of 42 he gave such a difficult fight to Mercer and Holyfield and Oliver McCall, who fought twice with prime Lennox Lewis, said that 45-year-old Holmes was his toughest rival... damn
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 16:40
by apollo creed
I think Holy fought one of the best versions of Mike in their first fight. Most probably Mike was training very serious bc he wanted so bad to redeem himself. That was a more mature&experienced version of Mike.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 18:21
by Jakub079
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 16:36
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 15:46
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 13:41
You're spot on. He was a small hw coming up from lhw. Buster would've stopped him too.
This probably puts Larry Holmes in a very bad place, doesn't it? he lost to a small LHW and he was only 35 years old and a long-lived champion. How is it possible that at the age of 42 he gave such a difficult fight to Mercer and Holyfield and Oliver McCall, who fought twice with prime Lennox Lewis, said that 45-year-old Holmes was his toughest rival... damn
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it since he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 19:44
by elmersalsa
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 18:21
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 16:36
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 15:46
This probably puts Larry Holmes in a very bad place, doesn't it? he lost to a small LHW and he was only 35 years old and a long-lived champion. How is it possible that at the age of 42 he gave such a difficult fight to Mercer and Holyfield and Oliver McCall, who fought twice with prime Lennox Lewis, said that 45-year-old Holmes was his toughest rival... damn
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it since
he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
Mike Tyson beat 10 fighters that were better than Buster Douglas? I don't see it.
Still, Iron Mike is an all time top 10 or 15 at heavyweight rankings and a great pound per pound all time top 100 great fighter.
To win a world title at 20 years old at heavyweight requires lot of maturity. It's a very great achievement in my estimation.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 21:07
by Jakub079
elmersalsa wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 19:44
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 18:21
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 16:36
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it since
he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
Mike Tyson beat 10 fighters that were better than Buster Douglas? I don't see it.
Still, Iron Mike is an all time top 10 or 15 at heavyweight rankings and a great pound per pound all time top 100 great fighter.
To win a world title at 20 years old at heavyweight requires lot of maturity. It's a very great achievement in my estimation.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 22 Mar 2024, 21:07
by Jakub079
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 21:07
elmersalsa wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 19:44
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 18:21
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it since
he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
Mike Tyson beat 10 fighters that were better than Buster Douglas? I don't see it.
Still, Iron Mike is an all time top 10 or 15 at heavyweight rankings and a great pound per pound all time top 100 great fighter.
To win a world title at 20 years old at heavyweight requires lot of maturity. It's a very great achievement in my estimation.
think he was actually weaker than Tucker, Berbick, Holmes, Biggs, Thomas, Ruddock, Ferguson, Williams, Smith, Tubbs but you can check where he was in 1989 before the fight with Tyson and where they were. You can also check if anyone was a bigger underdog than Douglas.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 04:29
by apollo creed
lol at Mike's fan girls trying somehow to justify the loss against Buster by saying the other opponents of Mike were better than Buster.
The reality is that a prime Mike got whooped by a contender who was very motivated to win that fight and that Mike didn't avenge that loss in a big money rematch.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 08:40
by Jakub079
apollo creed wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 04:29
lol at Mike's fan girls trying somehow to justify the loss against Buster by saying the other opponents of Mike were better than Buster.
The reality is that a prime Mike got whooped by a contender who was very motivated to win that fight and that Mike didn't avenge that loss in a big money rematch.
you know, Kirklaing Laing also won against prime Duran and Iran Brakley beat Hearns twice. I don't remember Sonny Liston getting back at Leotis Martin, didn't Roy Jones lose every time he went out to Glenn Johnson who was the same age or older? Did you know that Wlad Klitschko never took a revenge on Ross Purritty and Corrie Sanders? and yet I still think that Duran, Hearns, Liston, Jones, Klitschko and others mean more in the history of boxing, but if you want, you can think that Buster, Holy, Lewis were better than the always disciplined acset Mike who was always 100% professional and was proud of it famous and even that if Danny Williams was born in the same year as Mike, he would be the youngest world champion if only he had better marketing :) I really don't have a problem with it, hate can be funny
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 08:59
by apollo creed
Jakub079 wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 08:40
apollo creed wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 04:29
lol at Mike's fan girls trying somehow to justify the loss against Buster by saying the other opponents of Mike were better than Buster.
The reality is that a prime Mike got whooped by a contender who was very motivated to win that fight and that Mike didn't avenge that loss in a big money rematch.
you know, Kirklaing Laing also won against prime Duran and Iran Brakley beat Hearns twice. I don't remember Sonny Liston getting back at Leotis Martin, didn't Roy Jones lose every time he went out to Glenn Johnson who was the same age or older? Did you know that Wlad Klitschko never took a revenge on Ross Purritty and Corrie Sanders? and yet I still think that Duran, Hearns, Liston, Jones, Klitschko and others mean more in the history of boxing, but if you want, you can think that Buster, Holy, Lewis were better than the always disciplined acset Mike who was always 100% professional and was proud of it famous and even that if Danny Williams was born in the same year as Mike, he would be the youngest world champion if only he had better marketing :) I really don't have a problem with it, hate can be funny
nahh, wrong comparison. the hype of Mike was very, very big like "the baddest man on the planet" , so the man was marketed as invincible, once in a lifetime boxing prodigy but when he got whooped by Buster many people were shocked and could not accept that their hero/ golden goose got "cooked". They tried so hard to find silly excuses like Mike didn't trained enough, he was partying too much, long count, he wasn't focused enough, jet lag, he wasn't sleeping well, etc, etc. lol
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 10:35
by Jakub079
apollo creed wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 08:59
Jakub079 wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 08:40
apollo creed wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 04:29
lol at Mike's fan girls trying somehow to justify the loss against Buster by saying the other opponents of Mike were better than Buster.
The reality is that a prime Mike got whooped by a contender who was very motivated to win that fight and that Mike didn't avenge that loss in a big money rematch.
you know, Kirklaing Laing also won against prime Duran and Iran Brakley beat Hearns twice. I don't remember Sonny Liston getting back at Leotis Martin, didn't Roy Jones lose every time he went out to Glenn Johnson who was the same age or older? Did you know that Wlad Klitschko never took a revenge on Ross Purritty and Corrie Sanders? and yet I still think that Duran, Hearns, Liston, Jones, Klitschko and others mean more in the history of boxing, but if you want, you can think that Buster, Holy, Lewis were better than the always disciplined acset Mike who was always 100% professional and was proud of it famous and even that if Danny Williams was born in the same year as Mike, he would be the youngest world champion if only he had better marketing :) I really don't have a problem with it, hate can be funny
nahh, wrong comparison. the hype of Mike was very, very big like "the baddest man on the planet" , so the man was marketed as invincible, once in a lifetime boxing prodigy but when he got whooped by Buster many people were shocked and could not accept that their hero/ golden goose got "cooked". They tried so hard to find silly excuses like Mike didn't trained enough, he was partying too much, long count, he wasn't focused enough, jet lag, he wasn't sleeping well, etc, etc. lol
but I have no problem with you considering Buster worthy of this marketing and stating that if Buster was born in the same year as Mike, he should have become the youngest world champion and won 11 championship fights in a row until Holyfield. You can even say that the 42-1 favoritism was someone's fake and people fell for it, and the experts who claimed it was a mismatch were not experts but disguisers, then you would surely become a millionaire by betting on Buster and not falling for the hype.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 11:05
by apollo creed
Btw of the Holy fight. Imo the best version of Mike was against Holy I fight bc Mike was more mature, focused and experienced. Many people get caught in that nostalgia hype when Mike was a younger fighter that he was invincible. Holy was the real deal measurement stick to see how really good Mike is. Imo the version of Mike from the 1st Holy fight would've beaten Buster Douglas from the Japan match.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 12:52
by Jakub079
apollo creed wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 11:05
Btw of the Holy fight. Imo the best version of Mike was against Holy I fight bc Mike was more mature, focused and experienced. Many people get caught in that nostalgia hype when Mike was a younger fighter that he was invincible. Holy was the real deal measurement stick to see how really good Mike is. Imo the version of Mike from the 1st Holy fight would've beaten Buster Douglas from the Japan match.
as logical as the fact that Larry Holmes was better at the age of 42 than when he was 38 and Holyfield beat him better than Tyson ;) Tyson had a 20-minute fight with Holyfield in 5 years and the only real one was the one with McNelley because only he wanted to fight . It's easy to fool you my friend, someone like you will believe that before Danny Williams Tyson was the best in his career because he quickly won against Cliffrd Etienne
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 13:03
by gilgamesh
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 18:21
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 16:36
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 15:46
This probably puts Larry Holmes in a very bad place, doesn't it? he lost to a small LHW and he was only 35 years old and a long-lived champion. How is it possible that at the age of 42 he gave such a difficult fight to Mercer and Holyfield and Oliver McCall, who fought twice with prime Lennox Lewis, said that 45-year-old Holmes was his toughest rival... damn
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it
since he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
I'm not sure he beat 1 fighter better than Buster.
Buster vs the Larry Holmes of 1988 and Buster vs Michael Spinks don't seem like unwinnable bouts for Douglas to me.
Buster did lose to Tony Tucker. Him against James "Bonecrusher" Smith would've been interesting. It may have happened, but I'm not sure.
Buster could've beaten Trevor Berbick I think.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 13:35
by Jakub079
gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 13:03
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 18:21
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 16:36
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it
since he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
I'm not sure he beat 1 fighter better than Buster.
Buster vs the Larry Holmes of 1988 and Buster vs Michael Spinks don't seem like unwinnable bouts for Douglas to me.
Buster did lose to Tony Tucker. Him against James "Bonecrusher" Smith would've been interesting. It may have happened, but I'm not sure.
Buster could've beaten Trevor Berbick I think.
Tyson's top 5 wins - Biggs, Berbick, Frazier, Spinks, Holmes. What will you get from Buster? If you replace Douglas at any point in his career with Tyson standing in front of Berbick, do you think he will go down this path in the same style? someone who couldn't clearly win against Jesse Ferguson?
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 24 Mar 2024, 03:11
by gilgamesh
Yeah Douglas could've beat all those guys. I can't believe you'd even think he couldn't beat Berbick or Marvis Frazier.
Frank Bruno or Razor Ruddock might've been more of a problem for him.
Bottom line though I think Buster is one of those guys who's best success in Boxing would always be temporary because he just wouldn't stay motivated to keep doing it past a few big paydays. Which he didn't.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 24 Mar 2024, 04:48
by apollo creed
gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Mar 2024, 13:03
Jakub079 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 18:21
apollo creed wrote: ↑22 Mar 2024, 16:36
Not that bad as Mike getting stopped by Buster and not avenging that bad, bad loss, Styles make fights.
yes yes, I wonder at what point he should do it. If Buster retired with money, maybe he would get a break from prison? but I don't have a problem with it
since he beat about 10 fighters better than Buster.
I'm not sure he beat 1 fighter better than Buster.
Buster vs the Larry Holmes of 1988 and Buster vs Michael Spinks don't seem like unwinnable bouts for Douglas to me.
Buster did lose to Tony Tucker. Him against James "Bonecrusher" Smith would've been interesting. It may have happened, but I'm not sure.
Buster could've beaten Trevor Berbick I think.
If we talk about the version of Buster that beat Tyson in Japan then I think Buster would've beaten/gave a tough fight to the same versions of Tucker, Smith, Holmes, Spinks, Ruddock that Mike has fought.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 24 Mar 2024, 04:57
by apollo creed
gilgamesh wrote: ↑24 Mar 2024, 03:11
Yeah Douglas could've beat all those guys. I can't believe you'd even think he couldn't beat Berbick or Marvis Frazier.
Frank Bruno or Razor Ruddock might've been more of a problem for him.
Bottom line though I think Buster is one of those guys who's best success in Boxing would always be temporary because he just wouldn't stay motivated to keep doing it past a few big paydays. Which he didn't.
Motivated Buster from Japan was a tough customer to defeat. But of course that Mike's gullible fangirls would find any excuse to defend their hero.
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 24 Mar 2024, 13:40
by Jakub079
gilgamesh wrote: ↑24 Mar 2024, 03:11
Yeah Douglas could've beat all those guys. I can't believe you'd even think he couldn't beat Berbick or Marvis Frazier.
Frank Bruno or Razor Ruddock might've been more of a problem for him.
Bottom line though I think Buster is one of those guys who's best success in Boxing would always be temporary because he just wouldn't stay motivated to keep doing it past a few big paydays. Which he didn't.
of course he could beat anyone since he beat Tyson. He certainly could have beaten Lewis or Holyfield since McCall or Moorer did it, but he was considered Tyson's weakest challenger and apart from the fight in Tokyo, everything indicates that he was weaker, but I think he was greatly underestimated
Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype
Posted: 24 Mar 2024, 17:16
by elmersalsa
I have always said that the Buster Douglas that beat the great Mike Tyson in Tokyo in February 1990, could have beaten any other heavyweight, past or present, that night. He had the tools. He was tall (6'4") with the right weight (231lbs), with a terrific fast jab, mobility, ring general ship, with vicious right hand and upper cuts.
Tyson couldn't cope with that speed of feet and hands. Plus, Everytime that Tyson tried to rush in, Douglas smothered him up beautifully and tied him up. It was a sensational performance. His best win ever.
I thought that he was going to do the same thing against the great Evander Holyfield, but, he let a lot of people down. Especially, at weigh in at 246lbs. That was the beginning of that downfall.