No Mas: 45 Years Later. What Really Did Happened in New Orleans?

[elmersalsa]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

[Ambling Alp II]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

His performance didn't look as good because he was facing a better version of Leonard than he did in the first fight. Duran could not cope with that version. He never would have beaten Leonard again. which is why he ducked Leonard after the second fight.

[gilgamesh]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

His performance didn't look as good because he was facing a better version of Leonard than he did in the first fight. Duran could not cope with that version. He never would have beaten Leonard again. which is why he ducked Leonard after the second fight.

And I'll say this.

If the Duran of 1st bout meets the Leonard of the 2nd bout, and Leonard is determined to stick to the strategy that he stuck to in New Orleans. Then Leonard wins in my opinion.

Maybe Duran doesn't quit, but he doesn't win either.

[catalin714]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

His performance didn't look as good because he was facing a better version of Leonard than he did in the first fight. Duran could not cope with that version. He never would have beaten Leonard again. which is why he ducked Leonard after the second fight.

Correct,but at the same time he wasnt as good.It simply was there to see,he couldnt cut the ring off,he didnt have reactions or reflexes and easily quit mentally.He want at his best.
Even using the eye test his body wasnt as trim or fit as first fight.
I’m not taking credit away from Leonard I love him,it was on Duran if he wasnt at his best.
How did he duck him though?Duran retired after New Orleans and by the time he was relevant again Leonaed was retired himself.

[gilgamesh]

Duran throughout the 1980's and the 1990's. He certainly did not retire after the rematch with Leonard or at least if he did, it didn't last.

Leonard retired in 1982 and again in 1984 and those didn't last neither.

Duran had WAY more fights between their 2nd bout and 3rd bout than Leonard did.

[Ambling Alp II]

Leonard's career was derailed because of the detached retina. He retired It did not look like he would ever fight again. He had one fight a couple years later, and then not again for three more years before he fought Hagler.

[Ambling Alp II]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

His performance didn't look as good because he was facing a better version of Leonard than he did in the first fight. Duran could not cope with that version. He never would have beaten Leonard again. which is why he ducked Leonard after the second fight.

Correct,but at the same time he wasnt as good.It simply was there to see,he couldnt cut the ring off,he didnt have reactions or reflexes and easily quit mentally.He want at his best.
Even using the eye test his body wasnt as trim or fit as first fight.
I’m not taking credit away from Leonard I love him,it was on Duran if he wasnt at his best.
How did he duck him though?Duran retired after New Orleans and by the time he was relevant again Leonaed was retired himself.

Duran didn't look as good because Leonard fought a completely different fight in the rematch. He moved around a lot more. Duran always had a lot of trouble against quality opponents that did that. He had enough trouble beating Leonard when they fought to tot toe in the first fight. He was screwed when Leonard moved around a lot.
Duran had 5 months for the Leonard rematch. More time than he needed. The out of shape crap is about as lame as it gets as far as excuses get. And he always looked the same to me as far as the eye test in the 2nd Leonard fight. It is a crybaby excuse and nothing more.

As for ducking Leonard, why didn't Duran just stay at welterweight after the 2nd Leonard fight? He would have been the #1 contender and got a shot at Leonard within a year. Instead, he ducked Leonard by moving up to Jr Middleweight. If he really wanted a third shot at Leonard, in 1982, it would have happened.

[catalin714]

His performance didn't look as good because he was facing a better version of Leonard than he did in the first fight. Duran could not cope with that version. He never would have beaten Leonard again. which is why he ducked Leonard after the second fight.

Correct,but at the same time he wasnt as good.It simply was there to see,he couldnt cut the ring off,he didnt have reactions or reflexes and easily quit mentally.He want at his best.
Even using the eye test his body wasnt as trim or fit as first fight.
I’m not taking credit away from Leonard I love him,it was on Duran if he wasnt at his best.
How did he duck him though?Duran retired after New Orleans and by the time he was relevant again Leonaed was retired himself.

Duran didn't look as good because Leonard fought a completely different fight in the rematch. He moved around a lot more. Duran always had a lot of trouble against quality opponents that did that. He had enough trouble beating Leonard when they fought to tot toe in the first fight. He was screwed when Leonard moved around a lot.
Duran had 5 months for the Leonard rematch. More time than he needed. The out of shape crap is about as lame as it gets as far as excuses get. And he always looked the same to me as far as the eye test in the 2nd Leonard fight. It is a crybaby excuse and nothing more.

As for ducking Leonard, why didn't Duran just stay at welterweight after the 2nd Leonard fight? He would have been the #1 contender and got a shot at Leonard within a year. Instead, he ducked Leonard by moving up to Jr Middleweight. If he really wanted a third shot at Leonard, in 1982, it would have happened.

I agree with that.However if he was in top shape he would have done better that much is clear.
Quitting like that when he wasnt even remotely in trouble shows us he knew he wasnt coming back in it because he couldnt push a pace in his current shape.
Its not an excuse but a reality.Again that s on him though like it is on Toney when he fough Roy and any other similar example.
His body is different though in the 2 fights,put them side by side and see.
As for staying at welterweight?The answer is obvious,he couldnt make the weight safely anymore so he moved up.
How can it be a duck if you cant make the weight anymore?That s like saying Ryan ducked a Tank rematch at lightweight.

[elmersalsa]

Roberto Duran was BETRAYED by his own manager. He wasn't prepared mentally nor physically for the fight. He quit because he was gassed out and out of stamina in a fast-paced fight. He asked for more time for training and Don King, his own promoter since 1975, declined the postponement. Plus, he saw the BULLSHIT BETWEEN THE LINES and he quit because nothing was on his favor. He was totally disrespected by his own people.

Duran was betrayed, humiliated, screwed and hoodwinked by his own people. That's the bottom line. He was the champion and didn't get the respect that he should. It was a miracle that he lasted 8 rounds.

[gilgamesh]

In this thread.

We have all been Sylvester to elmer's Porky Pig

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Always interesting when professionals use weight gainas an excuse. Why not just be a pro and not be a fat ass? I dont find it all that hard to maintain Weight. These tough guys cant say no to a donut?

[keithmoonhangover]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

It clearly shows that Leonard fought a completely different fight and Duran couldn't cope with it.

Rewatch the first round of both fights, watching only Leonard's footwoork.

[elmersalsa]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

It clearly shows that Leonard fought a completely different fight and Duran couldn't cope with it.

Rewatch the first round of both fights, watching only Leonard's footwoork.

You don't want to give credit to Roberto Duran for nothing in Montreal. You don't want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sugar Ray Leonard fought different. That's all it was. He wasn't schooling, dominating nor giving Duran a beating. That's a FALSE NARRATIVE.

What happened was that he got betrayed when his manager and promoter were needed the most. Eight million dollars and the greedy old bastard, Carlos Eleta, took it.

It was a betrayal never seen in boxing history.

[keithmoonhangover]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

It clearly shows that Leonard fought a completely different fight and Duran couldn't cope with it.

Rewatch the first round of both fights, watching only Leonard's footwoork.

You don't want to give credit to Roberto Duran for nothing in Montreal. You don't want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sugar Ray Leonard fought different. That's all it was. He wasn't schooling, dominating nor giving Duran a beating. That's a FALSE NARRATIVE.

What happened was that he got betrayed when his manager and promoter were needed the most. Eight million dollars and the greedy old bastard, Carlos Eleta, took it.

It was a betrayal never seen in boxing history.

I give Duran lots of credit for the first fight. He fought a great fight and won a close fight by beating Sugar Ray Leonard. When I rewatch both fights, I look at Leonard's footwork in the first fight and he fought a great deal of the first fight flat footed. In the rematch he changed his strategy and won easily. I know it's the acme of foolishness to ask you to rewatch both rounds, look just at Leonard's footwork and report back.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It clearly shows that Leonard fought a completely different fight and Duran couldn't cope with it.

Rewatch the first round of both fights, watching only Leonard's footwoork.

You don't want to give credit to Roberto Duran for nothing in Montreal. You don't want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sugar Ray Leonard fought different. That's all it was. He wasn't schooling, dominating nor giving Duran a beating. That's a FALSE NARRATIVE.

What happened was that he got betrayed when his manager and promoter were needed the most. Eight million dollars and the greedy old bastard, Carlos Eleta, took it.

It was a betrayal never seen in boxing history.

I give Duran lots of credit for the first fight. He fought a great fight and won a close fight by beating Sugar Ray Leonard. When I rewatch both fights, I look at Leonard's footwork in the first fight and he fought a great deal of the first fight flat footed. In the rematch he changed his strategy and won easily. I know it's the acme of foolishness to ask you to rewatch both rounds, look just at Leonard's footwork and report back.

- What grade wuz you guys in then?

Obviously not old enough to read Leonard's first autobio where he explains early on Duran caught him with a left hook that had him sleepwalking going through useless motions the rest of the fight, ie Ray got the tarballs beat out of him. Leonard was so ashamed that he was ready to announce his retirement when his mgr gave him the dossier on Duran's current shape after months of nonstop partying, approx 200lb.

Bingo!!! Propose a record Duran purse with a short timeline guaranteed to cause problems making weight. Not just Duran, Leonard and his mgr were notorious for putting egregious conditions in place guaranteed to allow him to fight a fighter not at his best. Ray retired after Marvin beat him up and lost a bogus decision. Marv waited a year to coax Ray back in the ring, so when Marv announced his retirement, The next day Ray announces his comeback like the little jerk he was.

Yes, it's Duran's fault for blowing up between fights because he's freaking Duran who broke all the rules for mortals like you and Ray.

And it's your fault and those like you that boxing operates in the shadows of what is a legal criminal enterprise as the FBI concluded the last time they investigated boxing.

IBRO ALL-TIME RATINGS
December 31, 2019
Pound For Pound Results

1. Ray Robinson (602)
2. Henry Armstrong (536)
3. Harry Greb (499)
4. Sam Langford (395)
5. Roberto Duran (376)
6. Wille Pep (371)
7. Muhammad Ali (368)
8. Joe Louis (351)
9. Benny Leonard (335)
10. Ray Leonard (265)

[catalin714]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

It clearly shows that Leonard fought a completely different fight and Duran couldn't cope with it.

Rewatch the first round of both fights, watching only Leonard's footwoork.

Correct,in part.
It takes two to tango.
Duran would have been able to at least moderately have some success in shape cutting the ring off,countering,making SRL miss,etc.
He did none of those.He was flat.

[Ambling Alp II]

This whining about not having enough time is just so lame. We can make an excuse for any fighter who lost a fight if we buy into this. Everyone has personal problems. Everyone has things to overcome. Sometimes your favorite fighter (or team in other sports) loses. People need to grow up and deal with it.

[gilgamesh]

Making excuses for yourself when you f*ck up, is a really bad habit, and a bad personality trait because it leads to one never accepting their own faults, and never correcting their mistakes.

Making excuses for someone else is just pathetic.

Roberto Duran lived the exact same amount of days between the 1st fight and 2nd fight that Leonard did. If Leonard prepared for a rematch and Duran didn't, then Leonard was the better man because he prepared to be, and all the whining, complaining, and excuse making in the World won't ever change it. So why don't we all just move on to a different topic.

[elmersalsa]

Making excuses for yourself when you f*ck up, is a really bad habit, and a bad personality trait because it leads to one never accepting their own faults, and never correcting their mistakes.

Making excuses for someone else is just pathetic.

Roberto Duran lived the exact same amount of days between the 1st fight and 2nd fight that Leonard did. If Leonard prepared for a rematch and Duran didn't, then Leonard was the better man because he prepared to be, and all the whining, complaining, and excuse making in the World won't ever change it. So why don't we all just move on to a different topic.

Because you don't understand that it wasn't done on even terms. It was done to accommodate Sugar Ray Leonard. That's all it was. He had to be The Face of Boxing at any cost. And his management team led by Mike Trainer went as low as going to another country to pay another manager money that he wasn't going to refuse.

Leonard was training waaaayyyy before Duran knew that there was a rematch. It was Duran's greedy manager that screwed him. And also Don King. Duran never got the respect he deserved. How in the world you are the world champion, The Face of Boxing, the #1 fighter in the world, and you don't get the respect? Why he didn't get his petition to postpone for another date? That would be EVEN TERMS. Not that BEAUTIFUL STRATEGY set by Sugar Ray and his team.

But, all that worked because A RAT was in the kitchen. And that was Eleta and pretty much King.

[elmersalsa]

IBRO ALL-TIME RATINGS
December 31, 2019
Pound For Pound Results

1. Ray Robinson (602)
2. Henry Armstrong (536)
3. Harry Greb (499)
4. Sam Langford (395)
5. Roberto Duran (376)
6. Wille Pep (371)
7. Muhammad Ali (368)
8. Joe Louis (351)
9. Benny Leonard (335)
10. Ray Leonard (265)

Hey, that's a great list. The only problem I have is that Muhammad Ali should be top 5. To me, any list that Ali and Roberto Duran are top 5 is a great one. I would switch Ali and Greb. Greb to me was overrated.

[Expug]

There have always been two kinds of fighters in this gig.
Those that stay in the gym between fights keeping in shape. Because this is their profession and they know another fight is on the horizon. And those that Don’t. They party and get out of shape.
This goes for four round fighters right on up to world champions. That’s my observation. Seen it firsthand

[Ezzard]

The fact that he made weight doesnt mean he was in tip top shape.
His performance vs what he did in Montreal clearly shows this.

It clearly shows that Leonard fought a completely different fight and Duran couldn't cope with it.

Rewatch the first round of both fights, watching only Leonard's footwoork.

Correct,in part.
It takes two to tango.
Duran would have been able to at least moderately have some success in shape cutting the ring off,countering,making SRL miss,etc.
He did none of those.He was flat.

I agree. It's also clear that Duran's reflexes in the first fight match or even surpass Leonard's in the second fight Duran is not at that level and never was again. It's inconclusive as to what happens with the imagined match up.

[keithmoonhangover]

I've learnt a few things in this thread.

1. Duran didn't sign a contract for this fight.
2. Carlos Eleta got paid $8,000,000 for the fight. Duran got $0.
3. Duran had no choice but to fight Leonard on that date.
4. Duran was lying when he said.... "He (Leonard) is the best I have fought… I was never in bad shape.”

[Ambling Alp II]

Lets not forget that somehow 5 months was too soon for Duran to make his first tltle defense.
Even though, Leonard, Benitez, Cuevas, Palomino, Hearns, and Hagler all made their first title defenses in less time.

[Tony1244]

Duran had to lose too much weight too fast. Whose fault was that? Duran's obviously. Leonard took advantage of Duran's lack of discipline.