BoxRec

It was lose - lose for Holmes in many ways. The public wanted him to
fight Ali, and he did so. Then when he beat them, like you said he
was hated for it.

It would have been hard to deal with hitting Ali, especially when you
could see he was so shut out as he was against Holmes. You can
see in that fight, Holmes reluctance to 'open up'.

It is one of the few Holmes fights that i do not like to watch.

It amazes me all of the boxing experts and media types that hyped the
fight up and legitimised it. Only to condemn it soon after the outcome.
I suppose these are the same guys that call contenders bums, after
they lose their title bid.

ThatOne wrote:

Robinson wrote: I feel bad for Larry...Beating Ali in that condition is one of the reasons a lot of fans never embraced him.

Well, that and being an asshole didn't help him either. When I look up "class act" in the dictionary I find an inverse picture of Holmes.

Robinson wrote: Weaver is a nasty match up for Ali, though I doubt he would have
gotten the stoppage. Though perhaps it would have played out in
some ways like his Berbick fight, where he was more competitive,
though never the winner.

I really don't see how Ali could have survived 15 rounds with Weaver in 1980. I also doubt he would have lasted 5 more rounds against Berbick in their fight, a fight where he lost every round imo.

Ali's 'gift' decisions at the end of his career have been discussed endlessly here.

Many believe he lost the fights with Young, Norton III and Shavers. It might have been a better thing all round if he had lost one of those fights and retired back then. He was making somebody a lot of money though and I guess the sport and Ali himself didn't want to say goodbye.

just watched the show.
my thoughts-
1) ali sure spent alot of time on the massage table
2) i was surprised that even the 2009 footage showed holmes as a down to earth guy.
3) angelo dundee may be a beloved sweetheart in the boxing media, but he (and others for sure) came off as a powerless follower. (yelling "im the chief second" when the fight was stopped no thanks to him, and not having a clue what Ali was ingesting etc)
4) there must be alot of 1980's footage on the cutting room floor, as this show hit 60 minutes with commercials and the 2009 footage included.
5) pacheco may have a past of coming off as pompous and overly dramatic, but he did have the balls to leave in 77, so that gives him free licence to talk about those who did not.

all in all, a nice trip back to 1980 when I believed Ali would beat Holmes. (i was very young)

turn2stone wrote:just watched the show.
my thoughts-
1) ali sure spent alot of time on the massage table
2) i was surprised that even the 2009 footage showed holmes as a down to earth guy.
3) angelo dundee may be a beloved sweetheart in the boxing media, but he (and others for sure) came off as a powerless follower. (yelling "im the chief second" when the fight was stopped no thanks to him, and not having a clue what Ali was ingesting etc)
4) there must be alot of 1980's footage on the cutting room floor, as this show hit 60 minutes with commercials and the 2009 footage included.
5) pacheco may have a past of coming off as pompous and overly dramatic, but he did have the balls to leave in 77, so that gives him free licence to talk about those who did not.

all in all, a nice trip back to 1980 when I believed Ali would beat Holmes. (i was very young)

I was a huge a fan of The GOAT and still am. I never thought he would beat Holmes at that stage of his career and only hoped he wouldn't be embarrassed which he obviously was.

That being said I believe Ali had enough tools to beat any version of Holmes up until Zaire and possibly Manilla. Ali would have to have been at least eighty percent to beat Holmes and the last time he was at eighty percent was in Zaire though he never showed as a much resiliency as he did in Manilla.

I don't think there's an oddsmaker anywhere who wouldn't make Ali at least even money against any boxer who put on a a pair of gloves.



As for Angie and Ferdie nobody told Ali what to do not even the Nation Of Islam which he eventually leftt.

ThatOne wrote:

turn2stone wrote:just watched the show.
my thoughts-
1) ali sure spent alot of time on the massage table
2) i was surprised that even the 2009 footage showed holmes as a down to earth guy.
3) angelo dundee may be a beloved sweetheart in the boxing media, but he (and others for sure) came off as a powerless follower. (yelling "im the chief second" when the fight was stopped no thanks to him, and not having a clue what Ali was ingesting etc)
4) there must be alot of 1980's footage on the cutting room floor, as this show hit 60 minutes with commercials and the 2009 footage included.
5) pacheco may have a past of coming off as pompous and overly dramatic, but he did have the balls to leave in 77, so that gives him free licence to talk about those who did not.

all in all, a nice trip back to 1980 when I believed Ali would beat Holmes. (i was very young)

I was a huge a fan of The GOAT and still am. I never thought he would beat Holmes at that stage of his career and only hoped he wouldn't be embarrassed which he obviously was.

That being said I believe Ali had enough tools to beat any version of Holmes up until Zaire and possibly Manilla. Ali would have to have been at least eighty percent to beat Holmes and the last time he was at eighty percent was in Zaire though he never showed as a much resiliency as he did in Manilla.

I don't think there's an oddsmaker anywhere who wouldn't make Ali at least even money against any boxer who put on a a pair of gloves.



As for Angie and Ferdie nobody told Ali what to do not even the Nation Of Islam which he eventually leftt.

no but ferdie did the next best thing, and walked away.
as far as watching and soaking up everything Ali at that exact moment in time, i came in at the end of the Ali train. i was born in the early 60's. ali beating foreman when i was 12 really made no impression on me. but that still didn't stop the hype machine (tv and print media) from gushing about his chances against holmes.
i had front row seats at the closed circuit show to watch what was the equivalent of someone pulling the wings off a fly. if dundee had one brain in his head he would have stopped the fight 2 or 3 rounds earlier. that was the time to pull the self righteous "IM THE CHIEF SECOND HERE !!!" act, not after Herbert M gives the okay to pull the cash cow from being pulverized. ultimately Ali was his own worst enemy, but i have no problem spreading some of the guilt around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw-RRjxmrRA

is it only because i know how he looked later on or does ali
already show early stage of parkinson syndrome in this clip?
i can't really tell, but it seems to me he is not really present
even before the bell ... look at 6:52 to 6:54 - to me it looks
like he is off balance even before the bout.

man wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw-RRjxmrRA

is it only because i know how he looked later on or does ali
already show early stage of parkinson syndrome in this clip?
i can't really tell, but it seems to me he is not really present
even before the bell ... look at 6:52 to 6:54 - to me it looks
like he is off balance even before the bout.

He showed the early stages of Parkinson's in the whole film if you ask me.

hhaehre wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Robinson wrote: I feel bad for Larry...Beating Ali in that condition is one of the reasons a lot of fans never embraced him.

Well, that and being an asshole didn't help him either. When I look up "class act" in the dictionary I find an inverse picture of Holmes.

Holmes was only an asshole because he did things "his way" & did not bow down to the powers that be! No one gave Larry a prayer of becoming champ. Don King did not think Holmes would become champ. Larry was probably THE only person who truly believed in himself 100%!

Only when it became apparent Holmes was the best HW in the world did guys like King suddenly want to work with him! Even when Holmes was a contender, guys were hoping & expecting him to lose, but it did not turn out that way! Larry Holmes is probably the most underrated HW of all time!

He is right up there with the very best, top-five imo! Larry did not help himself at times & his relationship with the media is well documented, but a lor of that was because he was never given the credit or praise such a fighter of his calibre deserved! At that time, people were still fascinated by Ali, but he was shot to bits & only people's ignorance stopped them from seeing that!

What was Holmes meant to do, decline such a fight with Ali? Larry was a fighter, had a family to support, so of course he was going to take the fight! No doubt he was rewarded financially very well! Larry showed mercy to Ali because I do feel he could have socred a TKO rather than Ali not coming off his stool!

tzyuforever wrote:

man wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw-RRjxmrRA

is it only because i know how he looked later on or does ali
already show early stage of parkinson syndrome in this clip?
i can't really tell, but it seems to me he is not really present
even before the bell ... look at 6:52 to 6:54 - to me it looks
like he is off balance even before the bout.

He showed the early stages of Parkinson's in the whole film if you ask me.

it is really sad that he was still allowed to compete.
i guess brain damage is detectable before a layman
can see it ... whatever ...

man wrote:it is really sad that he was still allowed to compete.
i guess brain damage is detectable before a layman
can see it ... whatever ...

Oh, I'm sure it was evident to those close to him. But there was still some money to be milked from him, and that was enough to turn a blind eye.

tzyuforever wrote:

man wrote:it is really sad that he was still allowed to compete.
i guess brain damage is detectable before a layman
can see it ... whatever ...

Oh, I'm sure it was evident to those close to him. But there was still some money to be milked from him, and that was enough to turn a blind eye.

it was a crime nevertheless ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7p7WBiu ... re=related

Ali wanted to fight. Ali made the decision. Ali believed
in himself and so did ALOT of people.
Ali was able and still is able to make decisions for himself
and I doubt he regrets any of them.

Robinson wrote:Ali wanted to fight. Ali made the decision. Ali believed
in himself and so did ALOT of people.
Ali was able and still is able to make decisions for himself
and I doubt he regrets any of them.

& people keep forgetting that.

Nobody's forgetting that, but do you really think the people close to him had no inkling? Hell, even Holmes correctly diagnosed it during the film.

Fair play though, as it was his choice.

Robinson wrote:Ali wanted to fight. Ali made the decision. Ali believed
in himself and so did ALOT of people.
Ali was able and still is able to make decisions for himself
and I doubt he regrets any of them.

don't know. there are decisions which have to be taken
out of the hands of those who cannot judge any longer
as well as out of those with monetary interests. i would
say that he had given "the world", if you will, so much
that this world could have cared better about him when
he was not able to judge for himself anymore ...

fighters have to be protected from their own bravery
and pride at times ... this is why trainers throw towels
and referees stop fights. in my book ali was clearly and
visibly reduced.

and there is something in addition. people die in rings.
people with preexisting brain damage, well, i guess their
risk increases. ali could as well have died in that ring. with
holmes being the one doing the lethal shot. not fair against
him either. just imagine for a moment that picture. would
have probably been the greatest sports nightmare pic of
all time with holmes being the tragic executioner.

I don't hear too many of you saying what a tragedy it was when a young Ali mercilessly pummelled the over-the-hill and sitting ducks Archie Moore, Floyd Paterson and Cleve Williams.

According to you scum, it's only a tragedy when Ali is on the receiving end of it. When it's Ali dishing it out, it's a display of majesty.

Personally I loved watching the Holmes fight. Ali got what he deserved.

Knucklez wrote:I don't hear too many of you saying what a tragedy it was when a young Ali mercilessly pummelled the over-the-hill and sitting ducks Archie Moore, Floyd Paterson and Cleve Williams.

According to you scum, it's only a tragedy when Ali is on the receiving end of it. When it's Ali dishing it out, it's a display of majesty.

Personally I loved watching the Holmes fight. Ali got what he deserved.

Nether Ali or Archie Moore wanted the fight but Archie needed the money. Everybody agrees Archie was done by then but he wasn't a sick man; big difference to impartial observers.

As for Cleveland Williams he had been shot but at the time he fought Ali he won his last four fights after being shot and would fight another six years after losing to Ali..

How was Floyd Patterson over the hill when he fought Ali in 65. He was only 30.

When they fought again in 72 he was coming off a nice win against Ringo.

Ali had the nascent symptome of Parkinson's Syndrome in that fight. That's all anybody needs to know.

I don't think Ali's victory over the faded Archie Moore was majestic. Arche was a nice man. The victoy was what it was; a defeat of a faded great at the hands of an up and coming star.

The Cleveland Williams victory is harder to categorize. To Ali's detractors Ali beat a dead man walking yet he fought well before and after the fight. That fight is famous for what Ali did; not what the Cat did or didn't do.

I like the Floyd Patterson fight because it shows how athleticism trumps fundamentals.

I don't see what these fights have in common with beating a man with a brain injury.

But maybe you have a point. We shouldn't feel sorry for Muhummad Ali. He doesn't feel sorry for himself. He has his faith and his accomplishments to fall back on. Without boxing we would have never heard of him and the history of sports would have been a little less complete.

Knucklez wrote:I don't hear too many of you saying what a tragedy it was when a young Ali mercilessly pummelled the over-the-hill and sitting ducks Archie Moore, Floyd Paterson and Cleve Williams.

According to you scum, it's only a tragedy when Ali is on the receiving end of it. When it's Ali dishing it out, it's a display of majesty.

Personally I loved watching the Holmes fight. Ali got what he deserved.

i guess if i knew what "scum" means i would not answer,
but since i don't ...

it is not about being shot as a fighter or over the top or
past one's prime, it is about being shot as a human being.
ali was ... ill.

the whole issue has nothing to do with ali as being majestic.
i guess he is the only hw championship contender so obviously
handicapped who was ever allowed to fight since TV was invented.
in fact him being ali is probably the sole reason why the thing
happened in the first place.

IMOP,the first time I noticed when you can possibly see the symptoms already was in the 1977 movie
THE GREATEST,toward the last part when he is in the locker room
talking to the press.
That movie was released in May 1977,I think Ali had started filming it just before the third fight with Ken Norton and finished filming the rest afterward.
I didnt noticed it when I first saw the movie back then,but I only noticed this when I saw the movie again some 10 years ago,and wondered.

ThatOne wrote: I like the Floyd Patterson fight because it shows how athleticism trumps fundamentals.

Interested to know how you reached this conclusion?

Ezzard wrote:

ThatOne wrote: I like the Floyd Patterson fight because it shows how athleticism trumps fundamentals.

Interested to know how you reached this conclusion?

Floyd was the superior boxer but he wasn't as nearly naturally gifted as Ali.

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

ThatOne wrote: I like the Floyd Patterson fight because it shows how athleticism trumps fundamentals.

Interested to know how you reached this conclusion?

Floyd was the superior boxer but he wasn't as nearly naturally gifted as Ali.

But there are countless examples where skill beats athleticism?!?!?