BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:And overall?

I, like just about everybody else, rate Ali as the greater fighter.

Certainly Frazier was the better fighter that night.[/quote]


And overall?

[/quote]

Ali won two out of three, the last by KO. If Ali had not been forced out of boxing for three of his peak years, who knows what would have happened?

Collins2000 wrote:

The Great John L wrote:
Certainly Frazier was the better fighter that night.

And overall?

Ali had the greater career, no doubt but head to head I'd say it was very little between them. Ali won the series 2-1 but the second fight could easily have been scored a draw or even a win for Frazier.

hhaehre wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

The Great John L wrote:
Certainly Frazier was the better fighter that night.

And overall?

Ali had the greater career, no doubt but head to head I'd say it was very little between them. Ali won the series 2-1 but the second fight could easily have been scored a draw or even a win for Frazier.

Fair assessment, of course Nut Job will disagree.

Well count me as a nut job that finds it hard to give the second fight to Joe. I just don't see the Frazier production in terms of rounds won. It's the classic skilled boxer plays it safe and out scores the (potentially more dangerous) opponent IMHO.

Some just have a hard time scoring a fight for a back peddling opponent. But that blindness has given us all some real genius gems of judgment like the Whitaker Chavez truly pitiful travesty. If that second fight had gone to Joe it could have been counted in that category. (OK not quite)


Here's a litmus test, If you watch the DLH Tito fight IN REVERSE in terms of rounds and DLH pulls his foolish nonsense in the first rounds and takes care of business toward the end, do you score it different? If you do shame on you the same fighter SHOULD win it either way. IMHO.

My guess? If the rounds ran backwards the judges would have awarded the damn thing to DLH.....does that make sense to anyone here?

BoxBuzz wrote:Well count me as a nut job that finds it hard to give the second fight to Joe. I just don't see the Frazier production in terms of rounds won. It's the classic skilled boxer plays it safe and out scores the (potentially more dangerous) opponent IMHO.

Some just have a hard time scoring a fight for a back peddling opponent. But that blindness has given us all some real genius gems of judgment like the Whitaker Chavez truly pitiful travesty. If that second fight had gone to Joe it could have been counted in that category. (OK not quite)


Here's a litmus test, If you watch the DLH Tito fight IN REVERSE in terms of rounds and DLH pulls his foolish nonsense in the first rounds and takes care of business toward the end, do you score it different? If you do shame on you the same fighter SHOULD win it either way. IMHO.

My guess? If the rounds ran backwards the judges would have awarded the damn thing to DLH.....does that make sense to anyone here?

The second Frazier fight was close imo, just like the second Norton fight. I have no problem giving fights to back peddlers if they land effective and clean punches, with Ali I feel he often got points for dancing around and flicking a jab that was often short or blocked.

Just for the record and so that I am not buried by the Ali crowd, I believe Ali was gifted only two decisions in his career, Norton III and Young. I have no problem with the Doug Jones, Norton II, Frazier II or Shavers decisions but they were all pretty close fights.

I felt Ali's win was pretty decisive, in the 8-4, 116-112 region.

I don't know anyone who thinks Norton won his second fight with Ali so convincingly, it could be called a robbery --- except Elmer who, inexplicably, has stated he feels that way.

The only really clear result on points (with my three scorecards) in the entire Ali-Norton trilogy was the third fight, won by Norton (9-6, 144-141).

The Great John L wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:And overall?

I, like just about everybody else, rate Ali as the greater fighter.

You just gave Collins some cleaning to do...

They were very evenly matched but Ali had the greater career.

Few people thought the second fight was controversial at the time.

yancey wrote:bleat

You haven't told us which one you rate higher.

Come on, you can say Frazier.

And as Frazier's #1 nut-hugger, I expect no less from you!

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The only really clear result on points (with my three scorecards) in the entire Ali-Norton trilogy was the third fight, won by Norton (9-6, 144-141).

Interesting. You scored the first fight close?

Yes. I thought Ali was quite competitive --- one reason I doubt the story his jaw was broken very early on. Dundee, Pacheco & company have a history of making sh!t up as they go along when they tell their boys' story. I thought Ali ran Norton fairly close in the first fight.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Yes. I thought Ali was quite competitive --- one reason I doubt the story his jaw was broken very early on. Dundee, Pacheco & company have a history of making sh!t up as they go along when they tell their boys' story. I thought Ali ran Norton fairly close in the first fight.

I don't think his jaw was broken early either, but I don't think that was close fight at all.

Admittedly, it's been at least two years since I sat down with it.

Do you have your card? I remember mine as being a 7-5, 115-113 scoreline for Norton.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Admittedly, it's been at least two years since I sat down with it.

Do you have your card? I remember mine as being a 7-5, 115-113 scoreline for Norton.

No, but it was probably something like a 2 or 3 point spread. As I recall though, the difference with the first fight was that I thought most of the rounds were very easy to score, and the rounds Norton won were pretty decisive. AT least much more decisive than the subsequent fights.

First fight was a clear win for Norton.

Anyone who says otherwise either hasn't seen it or knows nothing about boxing.

I see Collins is so intent on his pursuit of me, he'll even launch an attack when I say something which could be interpreted as in Ali's favour. Talk about an axe to grind, eh? I suppose you can expect nothing less from someone so heart-broken by anonymous posts on an internet forum, he threatens to assault someone in person --- & is genuine, too. Such is the way of a disturbed individual

How can I win? I'm an Ali-hater, 100% genuine, certified by Collie, but Heaven help me if I go the other way. I just can't win --- or I can. Back to Ignore, Lap-dog. Hey, regarding knowing nothing of Boxing, at least I can sleep safe (sans Collins rapping at my window & hurling drunken obscenities, that is) in the knowledge I can recognise an image of Kid Azteca without declaring him as, "some random who has nothing to do with Boxing."

Genuflect, biznitch

Was Ali ahead of Frazier after ten rounds?

Nile4000 wrote:Was Ali ahead of Frazier after ten rounds?

The cards were 11-4, 8-6-1, and 9-6. Ali lost most of the later rounds especially he 11th and 15th.

300M people worldwide watched Ali-Frazier 1! At that time, that's an amazing figure, considering not many people would have a television in their household & not many could probably have afforded to pay to go the closed-circuit viewings!

Norton-Ali I was not close at all. Being extremely generous to Ali he won 4 rounds at most. Norton dominated that fight. Watching the fight is not even entertaining in that it's so one-sided.

Nile4000 wrote:Was Ali ahead of Frazier after ten rounds?

Dunno about officially off-hand, but I had him in front I think, but losing traction fast by the tenth. I haven't scored it in more than two years, but it's one fight which, probably due to the magnitude, I've always remembered my scorecard from in detail. I had Ali sweeping the opening five rounds, then losing eight of the next ten (though I don't recall which two I gave him in the second two-thirds of the bout). I remember having it dead-even going into the last stanza, so a one-round, two-point victory for Frazier. All three judges had it wider in the champ's favour than did I.