BoxRec

twenty six wrote:Where did I say the bond was payable more than once ?
Have you ever put on a boxing show ?
Have you ever booked the York Hall, and do you know how much they charge ?
I have every sympathy with Promotors trying to run a successful business without a TV contract.
Only recently Dave Coldwell ran a brilliant show at Magna Rotherham where there were tickets at £60 and £30 and he packed the place out.
Without being specific I can tell you Dave did not make a spanking profit.
I've been around boxing far too long to worry about people calling me a pleb.
I am a masterful mathematician.
Like I said have a go at it and put on an 8 fight card that will draw a crowd of 1500 at £20 a head and make a profit.
If you do then you need to offer your services to numerous small hall Promotors.

In what way are you involved in boxing may I ask? Curious of what capacity you have operated in genuine question.

I dont think the statements that I have made are deluded. Not saying that there is a ton of money to be made from these sort of shows but I dont think its an unfeasible business model. Ultimately the big paydays will always come in bigger fights if they progress that far. This is all about getting fighters prepared,getting fights under their belt, getting a following and putting local boxing back on the map.

Going back 50-60years there used to be 10's of shows every weekend in Britain now there are 1 or 2. These shows used to be local shows with local fighters and promoters would make money off of these shows and get a good decent regular crowd. Local shows happen every week all over the country but in the form of unlicensed boxing. These shows make money. There are bigger overheads for pro shows but in principal there is no reason why pro shows cant do the same. The difference that needs to be made is the transferring of lads buying tickets to see their mates to locals buying tickets to see their local favourite fighters. Knowing they will see a good night of scraps.

Simply the maths mate.
£20 a ticket to put on 16 fighters.
Just won't work.
Remember this thread started when it was suggested that 3 fights and a sit down meal was poor fare at £50 a head.
That's it in a nutshell.
Unsustainable.
Boxing doesn't attract people prepared to lose money - unlike football for example.
Like I said - have a go if you think it will work.

Unlicenced shows pay about 20 percent of the wage bill and thats done on tickets .They pay a lot less on overall costs and because they have no real plan for going forward title wise they put ticket sellers in against one another (a good thing to be fair).So they havea lot lower costing but charge the same for tickets.

i get the feeling people are starting to get a little bored of the unlicenced very much like mma has settled down now but who knows eh.

twenty six wrote:Simply the maths mate.
£20 a ticket to put on 16 fighters.
Just won't work.
Remember this thread started when it was suggested that 3 fights and a sit down meal was poor fare at £50 a head.
That's it in a nutshell.
Unsustainable.
Boxing doesn't attract people prepared to lose money - unlike football for example.
Like I said - have a go if you think it will work.

I think an 8 fight bill might be a bit ambitious but I dont think 4-5 fight bills would be unreasonable. I can only make rough estimations s I do not know all of the costs and dont pretend to but there are clearly some proble within boxing that make it both boring to watch as a spectacle and that it holds itself back at times due to being "stuckin its ways" Thats the done thing so thats how it can and should e done and always will be done. That sort of attitude.

I have spoken to promoters in the past with the possibility of shaking things up trying some different ideas because boxing in the state it is in at the moment is circling around the plughole.

Im throwing a few numbers out there its rough I will have missed out costs got some inaccurate but bear with me....

Small Hall show 5 fights

Income: 1250 x 20 = £25000 (£25) £31250 (£30) £37500
Sponsorship: £1000
Programmes: £500
Total: £26500/£32750/£39000

Purses: £13000
Venue hire £3k
Advertisement: £1k
Security: £1k
Ticket printing:£200
Ring £1k
Staff: £500
Programmes: £500
Refs/Judges:£500
Ring announcer: £200
Doctors: £500
Miscellaneous:£1k

Total: £22400

Profit: (£20) £2600 (£25) £10350 (£30) £15100

Granted these figures are extremely rough and largely estimated but even at £20 at those levels you could potentially make a profit. At these levels even with much larger than anticipated costs charging £30 entry still has the potential for a decent profit.

As a disclaimer these are all estimates im sure there are plenty who know more than myself but I still dont think its out of the realms of possibility. Regularity is the key build a following. Get sponsorship deals as the fight night becomes more popular. Negotiate better deals on the venue. Then other avenues for revenue such as merchandise may open themselves up.

Ok, how about if we change the slant of the question a little bit?

Here is the bill for 13th jan at York Hall; (Courtesy of Boxrec)



12x3 cruiserweight Leon Williams 9(4)-3(1)-0
SC Shane McPhilbin 7(4)-2-0

BBBofC British cruiserweight title
bout subject to change & commission approval

welterweight Bradley Skeete 5(2)-0-0
SC TBA

bout subject to change & commission approval

heavyweight Larry Olubamiwo 10(9)-2(1)-0
SC Sam Sexton 14(6)-2(2)-0

bout subject to change & commission approval

featherweight George Jupp 4(2)-2-0
SC TBA

bout subject to change & commission approval

division Charlie Hoy debut
SC TBA

bout subject to change & commission approval

welterweight John Wayne Hibbert 7(4)-1-0
SC TBA

bout subject to change & commission approval

division Darryll Williams debut
SC TBA

bout subject to change & commission approval

middleweight John Dignum debut
SC TBA

bout subject to change & commission approval

super bantamweight Michael Maguire 6(2)-0-0
SC Najah Ali 4(1)-2(1)-1

bout subject to change & commission approval

Tickets for this can be bought for £44. Does this reperesent better value for the punters than £50 for 3 bouts, two of those being 4 rounders? Also are the boxers on show here deriving more long term bebefit than being tucked away on a 3 bout bill dinner show on a Tuesday night?

I have no axe to grind by the way I am simply asking for comparison and opinions.

You don't get a three course meal at the York Hall !
To be honest the one you've picked is Double A Promotions - our very own boxingchat.
Maybe he can clarify the costs involved.
However as things stand there are only three fighters confirmed in the right hand column.
I assume this is a allegedly show, so a bad comparison anyway as it is a televised bill.
I assume allegedly have made a payment to Double A for the TV rights.
That you surely must understand makes a major difference to the balance sheet.
The one thing I will say is that I can't see there being 1500 paying customers through the door.

All I am asking is which one offers better value for money? As a paying boxing supporter which one would you rather attend? I can go to the local carvery and get a meal before I go to a show if I am hungry at £9.50 for 3 courses!!!!! Come on twenty-six, as a boxing fan tell me which one represents value for money. Are you a boxing fan?

At the moment only three fights are confirmed.
On that basis alone I wouldn't buy a ticket at £44 until I know more.
I would simply watch this on allegedly rather than buy a ticket - which defeats the object of what (I think) you were trying to achieve in the first place - which was to get fans to attend and build up a fan base.

ok. All comments appreciated. Back to the drawing board.

One of the thing with dinner shows is the ability to sit and relax with a drink where you cant in open shows.there is also usualy entertainment singer or comedian something like that.

I think the waitress service to table for the beer ,being allowed to drink that beer while watching the boxing and the whole suited and booted slant give it a diffrent slantto a open show.

Watching a show on sky is cheaper and a better veiw than getting a 40 pound seat at the back of the millenium stadium but people go with what entertains them not the most value for money.

Have to disagree with you John, I am pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of fight fans when purchasing ticxkets for a show are looking for value for money with exciting contests. I don't think that the genuine fight fans are bothered about having waitresses serve them beer, or a 3 course meal with a band or disco at the end. Just my opinion of course.

It would seem to me that £50.00 is not too bad for a sit down meal and three pro fights of varying distinction, when you consider that Local league one teams in Sheffield can charge near £30.00 for the best seats for watching pretty crap football. I suppose it's all down to the overheads for the venue and cost of the fighters. The question to be asked is whether Fighters are getting too much money for each fight or should they fight more often for less money or are the overheads in terms of the venue, security, financial bonds etc etc way beyond what they should be.

This is all relative of course, because it all depends on what the venue is or what calibre of fighter is on the show, but as twenty said, the recent event at the Magna attracted big crowds an was a popular night with the prices around £50.00, but Dave didn't make much of a profit that night. I suppose it's a fine balancing line between set up costs, pricing and eventual profit margins, that will depend upon the type of venue used and the qulity of fighters on the bill. The promoter has to make money, it's not a charity and the fighters have to make a living and i doubt you can make events work for much less than £30.00 a ticket.

Quixall wrote:It would seem to me that £50.00 is not too bad for a sit down meal and three pro fights of varying distinction, when you consider that Local league one teams in Sheffield can charge near £30.00 for the best seats for watching pretty crap football.

"Pretty crap" is your own subjective opinion - the attendances would indicate that there are at least several thousand people who disagree !!

Either way, remember that when you watch a football match you are watching 2 evenly (ish) matched teams who are both trying to win the game - definitely not always the case with boxing.

wrimc wrote:

twenty six wrote:Simply the maths mate.
£20 a ticket to put on 16 fighters.
Just won't work.
Remember this thread started when it was suggested that 3 fights and a sit down meal was poor fare at £50 a head.
That's it in a nutshell.
Unsustainable.
Boxing doesn't attract people prepared to lose money - unlike football for example.
Like I said - have a go if you think it will work.

I think an 8 fight bill might be a bit ambitious but I dont think 4-5 fight bills would be unreasonable. I can only make rough estimations s I do not know all of the costs and dont pretend to but there are clearly some proble within boxing that make it both boring to watch as a spectacle and that it holds itself back at times due to being "stuckin its ways" Thats the done thing so thats how it can and should e done and always will be done. That sort of attitude.

I have spoken to promoters in the past with the possibility of shaking things up trying some different ideas because boxing in the state it is in at the moment is circling around the plughole.

Im throwing a few numbers out there its rough I will have missed out costs got some inaccurate but bear with me....

Small Hall show 5 fights

Income: 1250 x 20 = £25000 (£25) £31250 (£30) £37500
Sponsorship: £1000
Programmes: £500
Total: £26500/£32750/£39000

Purses: £13000
Venue hire £3k
Advertisement: £1k
Security: £1k
Ticket printing:£200
Ring £1k
Staff: £500
Programmes: £500
Refs/Judges:£500
Ring announcer: £200
Doctors: £500
Miscellaneous:£1k

Total: £22400

Profit: (£20) £2600 (£25) £10350 (£30) £15100

Granted these figures are extremely rough and largely estimated but even at £20 at those levels you could potentially make a profit. At these levels even with much larger than anticipated costs charging £30 entry still has the potential for a decent profit.

As a disclaimer these are all estimates im sure there are plenty who know more than myself but I still dont think its out of the realms of possibility. Regularity is the key build a following. Get sponsorship deals as the fight night becomes more popular. Negotiate better deals on the venue. Then other avenues for revenue such as merchandise may open themselves up.

You said you have a small hall show with 5 fights, but in your figures you have 1250 tickets sold, who are these 5 fighters that sell an average of 250 tickets each? giving that only the left hand side of your card will be selling any tickets.

Yours costs arnt a million miles away but you need to be expecting a good ticket seller to be doing 100, a really good one to be doing 150-200 and a normal ticket seller to be doing 80.

So even with 10 fights on a show, with normal ticket sellers you would be getting 800 in through the door.

Dont forget to add on your board tax to them costs and if your doing 2 shows a year or more you will need to be registering for VAT as your turnover will be over the threshold, so take that 20% off the top end.

I dont know any small hall promoters making money,the good ones are breaking even or losing a small amount per show but for most of us its about putting on home shows to help our own fighters progress to something bigger and not getting robbed with bad away results.

bripez wrote:

Quixall wrote:It would seem to me that £50.00 is not too bad for a sit down meal and three pro fights of varying distinction, when you consider that Local league one teams in Sheffield can charge near £30.00 for the best seats for watching pretty crap football.

"Pretty crap" is your own subjective opinion - the attendances would indicate that there are at least several thousand people who disagree !!

Either way, remember that when you watch a football match you are watching 2 evenly (ish) matched teams who are both trying to win the game - definitely not always the case with boxing.

Well all opinion is subjective isn't it ??

Sheffield United were getting on average 26,000 home gates when they won the fourth division championship back in the early 1980's, far more than they achieved when in the premiership under Dave Bassett. The difference between the teams in terms of standards of play and players was huge, which just proves that the Sheffield clubs are well supported whichever division they are in, suffice to say that the football turned out by both Sheffield clubs this season won't be a patch on your average premiership match, hence my comment. It's a fact that most football teams in the lower leagues are not as well supported because the teams produce a less attractive football, which is perhaps a clue as to why they aare in the lower leagues in the first place.

Boxing can't be compared to football in any way really, but all i was trying to point out was that third tier Football clubs charge supporters up to £30.00 for 90 minutes of football which is pretty "average" at best, to use more considerate language. In light of this a £50.00 ticket to watch three professional bouts of boxing plus a meal would seem reasonable.

markfightoptions wrote:

You said you have a small hall show with 5 fights, but in your figures you have 1250 tickets sold, who are these 5 fighters that sell an average of 250 tickets each? giving that only the left hand side of your card will be selling any tickets.

Yours costs arnt a million miles away but you need to be expecting a good ticket seller to be doing 100, a really good one to be doing 150-200 and a normal ticket seller to be doing 80.

So even with 10 fights on a show, with normal ticket sellers you would be getting 800 in through the door.

Dont forget to add on your board tax to them costs and if your doing 2 shows a year or more you will need to be registering for VAT as your turnover will be over the threshold, so take that 20% off the top end.

I dont know any small hall promoters making money,the good ones are breaking even or losing a small amount per show but for most of us its about putting on home shows to help our own fighters progress to something bigger and not getting robbed with bad away results.

Cheers for the reply What is your involvement with boxing promotion? Would love to chat to exchange ideas PM me if you would rather chat privately.

The part that I have highlighted in bold is one of the things that I see as a major problem in boxing. The reliance on the boxers being "ticket sellers" I do expect individual boxers to be able and help in the distribution and selling of tickets as they will have a local fanbase and they are the easiest way to access that. That said the actual boxing night as an event needs to be sold. it needs to get to a point where people just want to go to "the boxing" whatever that may be. this can only be achieved if they know that it:
A) Is A value for money night out
B) Is of a consistently good quality
C) Becomes a big enough brand that people are aware of the promotion being on every month and that the fighters become recognisable and build a local following wider than merely a friend/family fanbase.

I would be curious to know how many tickets are sold on the door/via other means apart from boxers?

wrimc wrote:

markfightoptions wrote:

You said you have a small hall show with 5 fights, but in your figures you have 1250 tickets sold, who are these 5 fighters that sell an average of 250 tickets each? giving that only the left hand side of your card will be selling any tickets.

Yours costs arnt a million miles away but you need to be expecting a good ticket seller to be doing 100, a really good one to be doing 150-200 and a normal ticket seller to be doing 80.

So even with 10 fights on a show, with normal ticket sellers you would be getting 800 in through the door.

Dont forget to add on your board tax to them costs and if your doing 2 shows a year or more you will need to be registering for VAT as your turnover will be over the threshold, so take that 20% off the top end.

I dont know any small hall promoters making money,the good ones are breaking even or losing a small amount per show but for most of us its about putting on home shows to help our own fighters progress to something bigger and not getting robbed with bad away results.

Cheers for the reply What is your involvement with boxing promotion? Would love to chat to exchange ideas PM me if you would rather chat privately.

The part that I have highlighted in bold is one of the things that I see as a major problem in boxing. The reliance on the boxers being "ticket sellers" I do expect individual boxers to be able and help in the distribution and selling of tickets as they will have a local fanbase and they are the easiest way to access that. That said the actual boxing night as an event needs to be sold. it needs to get to a point where people just want to go to "the boxing" whatever that may be. this can only be achieved if they know that it:
A) Is A value for money night out
B) Is of a consistently good quality
C) Becomes a big enough brand that people are aware of the promotion being on every month and that the fighters become recognisable and build a local following wider than merely a friend/family fanbase.

I would be curious to know how many tickets are sold on the door/via other means apart from boxers?

My involvement is as a boxing promoter.

Im afraid boxers are ticket sellers, thats what promoters pay them for - to fill the halls and arenas with paying spectators, and its at all levels, david haye is a ticket seller; thats why they pay him so much - he sells out arenas and his product can be sold to television, he doesnt physically sell the tickets hand to hand but his name does, he sells sky subscriptions which enable sky to pay the promoter to pay haye.

Until boxers get "the name" then they have to sell them hand to hand. No matter how much promoting you do its very hard to sell tickets to joe public to watch boxers hes never heard off in small hall shows, its mostly friends, family and people who dislike you and want to see you get knocked out.

On the door, expect to do 10-100, mostly people who are friends with one of the boxers who made a last minute decision to come along, dont expect any more than 5% of your crowed to be people who dont personally know at least one of the boxers on the show.

BM (i think it was) did a bit with Miranda Carter a little while ago and she said she made (or sometimes lost) a few hundred quid per show - so its a tight margin there.

@matt___s wrote:BM (i think it was) did a bit with Miranda Carter a little while ago and she said she made (or sometimes lost) a few hundred quid per show - so its a tight margin there.

Boxing News, they did a different promoter every 3-4 weeks. Very interesting reading.

twenty six wrote:Looks ok to me.
Max Maxwell top of bill clearly needing a fight with his English title fight in March coming up.
Max should have been in line before Brian Rose for the British against Prince Arron.
£50 with the meal is about right.
Also was this a charity show ? I know "fighting fit" do some good work down there, so maybe the price covered a donation ?

I signed up to fighting for in October, but are yet to do a class due to a combination of a recent motorbike accident, and new job. Very friendly place. It's is a white collar gym with some pro's coaching and sparring down there.