BoxRec

Id have to pick Marciano or Frazier in a race to the bottom as the least likely, IMO.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I ask the question --- which of the legendary HW swarmers would have stood the best chance to beat the Foreman of this milestone event in his career, and what would you rate that chance to be?

The candidates...

Jeffries (1899)

Dempsey (1919)

Marciano (1952)

Frazier (1971)

Tyson (1988)

Tremendous imaginative thread.....lets keep this one burning for a long time....

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Id have to pick Marciano or Frazier in a race to the bottom as the least likely, IMO.

Agreed, Marciano would take an ugly, ugly beating.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Not everyones seeing it that way, I notice.

IF....

D'Amato had not said what he said about no swarmer type ever beating Foreman.....

+

Frazier had been counted out after the 2nd knockdown in Jamaica instead of getting bounced around all over the ring in such one-sided fashion, which I'm sure sticks out in everyone's mind....

would most of you still be so certain that '73 Foreman always smashes every swarmer in history?

Just wondering. Humor me.

Hard to say on the D'Amato quote.

As far as Frazier getting KO'd on the second knockdown, would he be Frazier if that were the case?

I suppose Im not opposed to the idea completely...its just that when I look at the great swarmers (as above), they simply arent good enough. To beat Foreman, you have to be WAY up and over the top if youre a swarmer, because the style disadvantage really is that severe.

But, by all means, if a swarmer comes along with Dempsey's explosiveness, Tyson's handspeed, Jeffries' conditioning, Frazier's heart, and Marciano's filthy tactics, I'll concede Foreman has his work cut out for him!

Not to get off topic, but your adjective describing Marciano's tactics is spot on.

That is my core problem with him, though I sincerely believe he rates a little below the other great swarmers anyway.

That fight with the game Don Cockell sickened me.

I haven't watched Frazier-Foreman I for a while, but one thing that stood out to me was how huge Foreman looked compared to Joe.

I know he probably had 10-15 pounds + maybe 4 inches in height on Joe, but the size difference just seemed greater to me.

Interesting you say that, because the weight difference for that fight, believe it or not, was just three pounds! Foreman was 217 (dehydrating in those days), and Frazier 214.

Of course, Foreman still had big edges in height and reach.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I havent, "gone after you," Yance, but you did mention me by name, whereas Elmer didnt.

Besides, you should consider it for what it is...Elmer is beyond help, while you remain among our more respected contributors.

PHYSICALLY, I agree with every word on Tyson. He, like Lennox Lewis, possesses some of the more vital tools to beat Foreman, but again like Lewis, I would expect him to come unstuck. I take the view Tyson would be crippled by Foreman's ring aura, and I cite his clear fear of the old Foreman as proof. That and the style and range deficits evaporate Tyson's chances, and in a way its a shame, because in a way, I consider Tyson a more gifted guy. I certainly agree he has the power, speed and finishing instincts to KO Foreman on paper...the reality would fall down, however.

For a quick guy who had a monster punch, good whiskers (another Tyson attribute) and first-class finishing ability, Dempsey is a better pick against Foreman, IMO (Would Dempsey be intimidated by Foreman? Im not sure...he did once remark from ringside Foreman was the heaviest puncher he had EVER seen. At the least, Id consider him LESS likely to feel or fight scared than the more fragile Tyson).

The young Tyson, the "I heard him make noises like a woman" Tyson...the " I made him pay for his actions with his health" Tyson would not be intimidated out of it or fight scared... you're forgetting this Foreman also felt intense fear before fighting Frazier.....but both these men in fact all the guys on this list are men, who knew how to ignore fear and none of them ever fought intimidated even if they felt that way.

mugabi wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I havent, "gone after you," Yance, but you did mention me by name, whereas Elmer didnt.

Besides, you should consider it for what it is...Elmer is beyond help, while you remain among our more respected contributors.

PHYSICALLY, I agree with every word on Tyson. He, like Lennox Lewis, possesses some of the more vital tools to beat Foreman, but again like Lewis, I would expect him to come unstuck. I take the view Tyson would be crippled by Foreman's ring aura, and I cite his clear fear of the old Foreman as proof. That and the style and range deficits evaporate Tyson's chances, and in a way its a shame, because in a way, I consider Tyson a more gifted guy. I certainly agree he has the power, speed and finishing instincts to KO Foreman on paper...the reality would fall down, however.

For a quick guy who had a monster punch, good whiskers (another Tyson attribute) and first-class finishing ability, Dempsey is a better pick against Foreman, IMO (Would Dempsey be intimidated by Foreman? Im not sure...he did once remark from ringside Foreman was the heaviest puncher he had EVER seen. At the least, Id consider him LESS likely to feel or fight scared than the more fragile Tyson).

The young Tyson, the "I heard him make noises like a woman" Tyson...the " I made him pay for his actions with his health" Tyson would not be intimidated out of it or fight scared... you're forgetting this Foreman also felt intense fear before fighting Frazier.....but both these men in fact all the guys on this list are men, who knew how to ignore fear and none of them ever fought intimidated even if they felt that way.

Tyson was quite obviously intimidated by Holyfield for their rematch. Foreman responded to his fear of Frazier much differently. Tyson had a great chin, but in all of his losses there is a point where he just accepts that he can't win and takes his beating like a man while winging an occasional prayer. That was Mike's plan B.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

mugabi wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I havent, "gone after you," Yance, but you did mention me by name, whereas Elmer didnt.

Besides, you should consider it for what it is...Elmer is beyond help, while you remain among our more respected contributors.

PHYSICALLY, I agree with every word on Tyson. He, like Lennox Lewis, possesses some of the more vital tools to beat Foreman, but again like Lewis, I would expect him to come unstuck. I take the view Tyson would be crippled by Foreman's ring aura, and I cite his clear fear of the old Foreman as proof. That and the style and range deficits evaporate Tyson's chances, and in a way its a shame, because in a way, I consider Tyson a more gifted guy. I certainly agree he has the power, speed and finishing instincts to KO Foreman on paper...the reality would fall down, however.

For a quick guy who had a monster punch, good whiskers (another Tyson attribute) and first-class finishing ability, Dempsey is a better pick against Foreman, IMO (Would Dempsey be intimidated by Foreman? Im not sure...he did once remark from ringside Foreman was the heaviest puncher he had EVER seen. At the least, Id consider him LESS likely to feel or fight scared than the more fragile Tyson).

The young Tyson, the "I heard him make noises like a woman" Tyson...the " I made him pay for his actions with his health" Tyson would not be intimidated out of it or fight scared... you're forgetting this Foreman also felt intense fear before fighting Frazier.....but both these men in fact all the guys on this list are men, who knew how to ignore fear and none of them ever fought intimidated even if they felt that way.

Tyson was quite obviously intimidated by Holyfield for their rematch. Foreman responded to his fear of Frazier much differently. Tyson had a great chin, but in all of his losses there is a point where he just accepts that he can't win and takes his beating like a man while winging an occasional prayer. That was Mike's plan B.

Im talking about the Tyson of the late 80's thats who I assume is being considered here against the Foreman of the early 70's. There's a world of difference between the bloodthirsty, hungry, iron chinned tyson of 1986-91 and the almost meek,going through the motions, rusty as hell, and living off his past Tyson of post prison that we saw in 95-97........ The man who traded freely with powerpunchers like bonecrusher and ruddock and who another puncher Frank Bruno complained "was on me like a harbour shark".In all three of those fights Tyson took shots that would have kayoed many other top level heavyweights of the 1980s and his reaction was to always fire back with ferocity each time look at the 12th round with bonecrusher or the first with Bruno. Obviously none of those men are anywhere close to the power of Foreman, but my fundamental point is the Tyson of his early incarnation the one who sat watching tapes all night of Gunboat Smith, Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson....that man even if he had felt intimidated facing Foreman he would not have fought like that...when he tasted Foremans power he would have fought back.....even if eventually he was overcome which he would be like every other man on this list

There are some problems one must sort out here before offering up an opinion.

But I would say top form Frazier or Dempsey, in no order.

I.M.H.O. You can't "extract" the fact that Tyson was wary of Foreman, and once that is in the equation, I see one inevitable outcome. Foreman by KO. Maybe Tyson was the most physically capable maybe not. But he was "pre psyched" and that is a fact that has been rather well documented ...so all my cash goes on Foreman. I understand it would have some risk, but not enough to persuede me not to put some money on this fight, and go ahead and order my Lexus with a sense of confidence.

I would refrain from betting on the Dempsy, or Prime Frazier fights. I would be mildly surprised if either of them pulled it off, but to me it is close to even money, so why take the chance.

mugabi wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

mugabi wrote: The young Tyson, the "I heard him make noises like a woman" Tyson...the " I made him pay for his actions with his health" Tyson would not be intimidated out of it or fight scared... you're forgetting this Foreman also felt intense fear before fighting Frazier.....but both these men in fact all the guys on this list are men, who knew how to ignore fear and none of them ever fought intimidated even if they felt that way.

Tyson was quite obviously intimidated by Holyfield for their rematch. Foreman responded to his fear of Frazier much differently. Tyson had a great chin, but in all of his losses there is a point where he just accepts that he can't win and takes his beating like a man while winging an occasional prayer. That was Mike's plan B.

Im talking about the Tyson of the late 80's thats who I assume is being considered here against the Foreman of the early 70's. There's a world of difference between the bloodthirsty, hungry, iron chinned tyson of 1986-91 and the almost meek,going through the motions, rusty as hell, and living off his past Tyson of post prison that we saw in 95-97........ The man who traded freely with powerpunchers like bonecrusher and ruddock and who another puncher Frank Bruno complained "was on me like a harbour shark".In all three of those fights Tyson took shots that would have kayoed many other top level heavyweights of the 1980s and his reaction was to always fire back with ferocity each time look at the 12th round with bonecrusher or the first with Bruno. Obviously none of those men are anywhere close to the power of Foreman, but my fundamental point is the Tyson of his early incarnation the one who sat watching tapes all night of Gunboat Smith, Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson....that man even if he had felt intimidated facing Foreman he would not have fought like that...when he tasted Foremans power he would have fought back.....even if eventually he was overcome which he would be like every other man on this list

Yes, that is the Tyson I'm talking about, too. The bloodthirsty one with very serious power.

IF that Tyson got in the first hard punch against '73 Foreman, he (Tyson) could possibly go wildly aggressive and land a few more bombs and have George out of there before you knew it. It is not like George was some defensive master + Tyson was a super fast starter, unlike Smokin' Joe.

p.s. Not surprising to me that Frazier is getting the least votes in the poll. Goes to show you how Joe being manhandled in Jamaica sticks out in people's minds when it reality truly prime Frazier would stand a better chance of overcoming the style match-up problem than Rocky and very possibly Dempsey ever could.

mugabi wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

mugabi wrote: The young Tyson, the "I heard him make noises like a woman" Tyson...the " I made him pay for his actions with his health" Tyson would not be intimidated out of it or fight scared... you're forgetting this Foreman also felt intense fear before fighting Frazier.....but both these men in fact all the guys on this list are men, who knew how to ignore fear and none of them ever fought intimidated even if they felt that way.

Tyson was quite obviously intimidated by Holyfield for their rematch. Foreman responded to his fear of Frazier much differently. Tyson had a great chin, but in all of his losses there is a point where he just accepts that he can't win and takes his beating like a man while winging an occasional prayer. That was Mike's plan B.

Im talking about the Tyson of the late 80's thats who I assume is being considered here against the Foreman of the early 70's. There's a world of difference between the bloodthirsty, hungry, iron chinned tyson of 1986-91 and the almost meek,going through the motions, rusty as hell, and living off his past Tyson of post prison that we saw in 95-97........ The man who traded freely with powerpunchers like bonecrusher and ruddock and who another puncher Frank Bruno complained "was on me like a harbour shark".In all three of those fights Tyson took shots that would have kayoed many other top level heavyweights of the 1980s and his reaction was to always fire back with ferocity each time look at the 12th round with bonecrusher or the first with Bruno. Obviously none of those men are anywhere close to the power of Foreman, but my fundamental point is the Tyson of his early incarnation the one who sat watching tapes all night of Gunboat Smith, Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson....that man even if he had felt intimidated facing Foreman he would not have fought like that...when he tasted Foremans power he would have fought back.....even if eventually he was overcome which he would be like every other man on this list

Tyson and Bonecrusher traded hugs. He struggled mightily with James Tillis. And in his prime he was mutilated by Buster Douglas. There wasn't an invincible machine there, his same issues would have came out if he wasn't in charge. Mike is an historian of the sport, but he is clueless in the ring past the seek and destroy program in his head. That would always hurt him in a fight like this, where he is facing a stronger man that could consistently back him up. Tyson wanted nothing to do with old man Foreman, and it was the richest fight in the sport.

BoxBuzz wrote:There are some problems one must sort out here before offering up an opinion.

But I would say top form Frazier or Dempsey, in no order.

I.M.H.O. You can't "extract" the fact that Tyson was wary of Foreman, and once that is in the equation, I see one inevitable outcome. Foreman by KO. Maybe Tyson was the most physically capable maybe not. But he was "pre psyched" and that is a fact that has been rather well documented ...so all my cash goes on Foreman. I understand it would have some risk, but not enough to persuede me not to put some money on this fight, and go ahead and order my Lexus with a sense of confidence.

I would refrain from betting on the Dempsy, or Prime Frazier fights. I would be mildly surprised if either of them pulled it off, but to me it is close to even money, so why take the chance.

Interesting thoughts and I'm glad another one can see a possible Frazier victory.

As far as being mentally psyched, yes, understood, but isn't it possible if a beast like Tyson started fast and happened to get in the first telling lick against George, then all mental inhibitions get cast aside and Tyson really turns it up and with his punching power gets George out of there before George can recover?

Afterall, I've always heard that Foreman was quite leary against Frazier, but that outlook suddenly changed when he saw Joe quickly on the floor.

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:There are some problems one must sort out here before offering up an opinion.

But I would say top form Frazier or Dempsey, in no order.

I.M.H.O. You can't "extract" the fact that Tyson was wary of Foreman, and once that is in the equation, I see one inevitable outcome. Foreman by KO. Maybe Tyson was the most physically capable maybe not. But he was "pre psyched" and that is a fact that has been rather well documented ...so all my cash goes on Foreman. I understand it would have some risk, but not enough to persuede me not to put some money on this fight, and go ahead and order my Lexus with a sense of confidence.

I would refrain from betting on the Dempsy, or Prime Frazier fights. I would be mildly surprised if either of them pulled it off, but to me it is close to even money, so why take the chance.

Interesting thoughts and I'm glad another one can see a possible Frazier victory.

As far as being mentally psyched, yes, understood, but isn't it possible if a beast like Tyson started fast and happened to get in the first telling lick against George, then all mental inhibitions get cast aside and Tyson really turns it up and with his punching power gets George out of there before George can recover?

Afterall, I've always heard that Foreman was quite leary against Frazier, but that outlook suddenly changed when he saw Joe quickly on the floor.

Tyson has some chance of stopping most anyone early.

Mugabi, if youre talking about Tyson 86-91 and how he wouldnt be intimidated by prime Foreman, please explain how he was so terrified of even the ancient Foreman that he flat refused King's advances to make the bout, telling King Foreman was an animal, and, "you fight him."

Hes suddenly going to get BRAVER for the young Foreman?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:There are some problems one must sort out here before offering up an opinion.

But I would say top form Frazier or Dempsey, in no order.

I.M.H.O. You can't "extract" the fact that Tyson was wary of Foreman, and once that is in the equation, I see one inevitable outcome. Foreman by KO. Maybe Tyson was the most physically capable maybe not. But he was "pre psyched" and that is a fact that has been rather well documented ...so all my cash goes on Foreman. I understand it would have some risk, but not enough to persuede me not to put some money on this fight, and go ahead and order my Lexus with a sense of confidence.

I would refrain from betting on the Dempsy, or Prime Frazier fights. I would be mildly surprised if either of them pulled it off, but to me it is close to even money, so why take the chance.

Interesting thoughts and I'm glad another one can see a possible Frazier victory.

As far as being mentally psyched, yes, understood, but isn't it possible if a beast like Tyson started fast and happened to get in the first telling lick against George, then all mental inhibitions get cast aside and Tyson really turns it up and with his punching power gets George out of there before George can recover?

Afterall, I've always heard that Foreman was quite leary against Frazier, but that outlook suddenly changed when he saw Joe quickly on the floor.

Tyson has some chance of stopping most anyone early.

Yes, that is why he got my vote in this poll.

Frazier and Dempsey would be close after that.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:There are some problems one must sort out here before offering up an opinion.

But I would say top form Frazier or Dempsey, in no order.

I.M.H.O. You can't "extract" the fact that Tyson was wary of Foreman, and once that is in the equation, I see one inevitable outcome. Foreman by KO. Maybe Tyson was the most physically capable maybe not. But he was "pre psyched" and that is a fact that has been rather well documented ...so all my cash goes on Foreman. I understand it would have some risk, but not enough to persuede me not to put some money on this fight, and go ahead and order my Lexus with a sense of confidence.

I would refrain from betting on the Dempsy, or Prime Frazier fights. I would be mildly surprised if either of them pulled it off, but to me it is close to even money, so why take the chance.

Interesting thoughts and I'm glad another one can see a possible Frazier victory.

As far as being mentally psyched, yes, understood, but isn't it possible if a beast like Tyson started fast and happened to get in the first telling lick against George, then all mental inhibitions get cast aside and Tyson really turns it up and with his punching power gets George out of there before George can recover?

Afterall, I've always heard that Foreman was quite leary against Frazier, but that outlook suddenly changed when he saw Joe quickly on the floor.

Tyson has some chance of stopping most anyone early.

Agreed with that and Yance --- the thing is, guys like Foreman and Ali showed they could turn fear on its head. Tyson only ever met fear with surrender.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Mugabi, if youre talking about Tyson 86-91 and how he wouldnt be intimidated by prime Foreman, please explain how he was so terrified of even the ancient Foreman that he flat refused King's advances to make the bout, telling King Foreman was an animal, and, "you fight him."

Hes suddenly going to get BRAVER for the young Foreman?

It would be a younger Tyson too, with less mental scar tissue.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

yancey wrote:
Interesting thoughts and I'm glad another one can see a possible Frazier victory.

As far as being mentally psyched, yes, understood, but isn't it possible if a beast like Tyson started fast and happened to get in the first telling lick against George, then all mental inhibitions get cast aside and Tyson really turns it up and with his punching power gets George out of there before George can recover?

Afterall, I've always heard that Foreman was quite leary against Frazier, but that outlook suddenly changed when he saw Joe quickly on the floor.

Tyson has some chance of stopping most anyone early.

Agreed with that and Yance --- the thing is, guys like Foreman and Ali showed they could turn fear on its head. Tyson only ever met fear with surrender.

Yes, and maybe I'm not making sense, but what if he happened to get in the first damaging blow BEFORE he mentally surrendered and the negative thoughts disappear and he turns into a real beast?

I guess your point is that he mentally quits before the first bell rings and therefore he never has a chance to get in the first telling blow, right?

That is my position, yes. That Tyson enters handicapped and fights accordingly.

Honestly though, I consider Tyson a BETTER fighter than Foreman on paper (paper only, mind), sn the chance is there regardless. Physically, Tyson should be my pick, his gifts were scary, and exceed Foreman's talents, IMO. He just happens to be rather fragile mentally (relative to rival greats) in a sport where that REALLY counts.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

yancey wrote:
Interesting thoughts and I'm glad another one can see a possible Frazier victory.

As far as being mentally psyched, yes, understood, but isn't it possible if a beast like Tyson started fast and happened to get in the first telling lick against George, then all mental inhibitions get cast aside and Tyson really turns it up and with his punching power gets George out of there before George can recover?

Afterall, I've always heard that Foreman was quite leary against Frazier, but that outlook suddenly changed when he saw Joe quickly on the floor.

Tyson has some chance of stopping most anyone early.

Agreed with that and Yance --- the thing is, guys like Foreman and Ali showed they could turn fear on its head. Tyson only ever met fear with surrender.

Agreed, Mike was afraid of Holyfield. People confuse Tyson's ability to absorb punishment with not giving up in there. And relax, I'm not calling him a quitter. But he was content to just walk in and take punishment until it was over in dire situations. I'm not blaming him, he didn't know any other way to fight. But going backwards is something he can't do effectively, and unless he lands a bomb in about 5 seconds that is exactly what he is going to be doing.

None would last but i reckon Tyson the best chance to last the longest. His early output and strenght would earn Georges respect. Just like Lyle and Ali's ealry attack had George more cautious than usual; Tyson would make a bigger impression. But as soon as Foreman is hurt, he'll go ape shit and finish Tyson. Foreman should definitely stay away from humid 100 degee temps for this one.
Marciano, Jeffeires and Dempsey get obliterated early, no question in my mind.

Does anyone else see Frazier go down from a phantom punch with that first knockdown? I could SWEAR Foreman misses cold and Frazier seems to just drop. It always struck me as odd.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Does anyone else see Frazier go down from a phantom punch with that first knockdown? I could SWEAR Foreman misses cold and Frazier seems to just drop. It always struck me as odd.

Moments before the first knockdown, Angelo Dundee from ringside exclaimed that Frazier was hurt. Maybe it was an earlier punch that did it and the right hand just kind of clipped Joe and helped the first knockdown along. I remember it was kind of a sidearm right, wasn't it? Not quite an uppercut, if I remember right.

I hesitate to go to youtube and see that fight. It always kind of saddens me and I always thought that uppercut for the 2nd knockdown was freaking brutal. Hated to see my man get hit like that.

I get you --- just watch the first KD. Frazier isnt hit AT ALL!?!?!?