On The Anniversary Of Foreman-Frazier I...

[Goodnight, Irene]

I ask the question --- which of the legendary HW swarmers would have stood the best chance to beat the Foreman of this milestone event in his career, and what would you rate that chance to be?

The candidates...

Jeffries (1899)

Dempsey (1919)

Marciano (1952)

Frazier (1971)

Tyson (1988)

[yancey]

Ah, January 22, Irene's big day.

To answer the question, '69-'70 Frazier (his real prime) stands a little under a 4 in 10 chance, assuming a referee that strictly enforces the rules and strongly talks to Foreman and his corner the first time they pull the pushing-shoving crap.

If I'm Yank Durham, I absolutely have Frazier well warmed up to go from the start....the first 4 rounds in this affair are everything, imo. IF Frazier weathers the early Foreman offensive and stays tight, the tide will turn.

Tyson may be slightly better than 4 in 10. I noticed in some of his films that he could come in even lower than Joe. Coming in real low may just be a key in that fight. Tyson also had a stronger punch than Frazier and he may just be able to get one in that hurts Foreman bad real early.

Marciano has much less chance, imo. I think '73 Foreman brutalizes him.

Dempsey probably gets tossed around, too, but I would definitely give him a better chance than Rocky. I perceive him as quicker and fiercer to the target than Rocky.

Jeffries, I don't know enough about the old-time fighters to have an opinion.

So, to answer your question, Tyson at his best probably stands the best chance, with '69-'70 Frazier not too far behind.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't like any of their chances. If forced to pick I'd probably go with Dempsey or Tyson because of their hand speed. But being honest, all 5 of them get smashed.

I missed the poll, I voted for Jack.

[elmersalsa]

It gotta be the great Smokin Joe of the late 60s and early 70s. Not that Frazier that fought in Jamaica.

I have never believed that Foreman beats that Frazier of the fight of the century. No matter how great Big George was.

[Techno89]

I think Marciano or Tyson but it will be close

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ah, January 22, Irene's big day.

To answer the question, '69-'70 Frazier (his real prime) stands a little under a 4 in 10 chance, assuming a referee that strictly enforces the rules and strongly talks to Foreman and his corner the first time they pull the pushing-shoving crap.

If I'm Yank Durham, I absolutely have Frazier well warmed up to go from the start....the first 4 rounds in this affair are everything, imo. IF Frazier weathers the early Foreman offensive and stays tight, the tide will turn.

Tyson may be slightly better than 4 in 10. I noticed in some of his films that he could come in even lower than Joe. Coming in real low may just be a key in that fight. Tyson also had a stronger punch than Frazier and he may just be able to get one in that hurts Foreman bad real early.

Marciano has much less chance, imo. I think '73 Foreman brutalizes him.

Dempsey probably gets tossed around, too, but I would definitely give him a better chance than Rocky. I perceive him as quicker and fiercer to the target than Rocky.

Jeffries, I don't know enough about the old-time fighters to have an opinion.

So, to answer your question, Tyson at his best probably stands the best chance, with '69-'70 Frazier not too far behind.

Now dont go getting worked up Yance --- most Ali fans dont begrudge you a thread for the FOTC, and I dont carry on about witch doctors and loose ropes in a RITJ thread! Settle back and lets talk Boxing.

My pick is Dempsey --- he and Tyson were the most capable of ending a fight early, whereas the others were more attrition-oriented. Tyson, though, lacks the mental equipment to deal with Foreman, whereas Dempsey would just go for it, backing himself all the way. His chances would be slim, but theyd be better than the rest. Marciano and a younger Frazier, I cant really see cases for.

However, my wildcard in all of this is Jeffries --- its too hard to see for sure how he'd fare, but I consider him very much a bigger, better Marciano, and hes the only one of the five who may be able to refuse being physically overpowered up-close. Too difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt all told, but Id be interested to see it.

[yancey]

Ah, January 22, Irene's big day.

To answer the question, '69-'70 Frazier (his real prime) stands a little under a 4 in 10 chance, assuming a referee that strictly enforces the rules and strongly talks to Foreman and his corner the first time they pull the pushing-shoving crap.

If I'm Yank Durham, I absolutely have Frazier well warmed up to go from the start....the first 4 rounds in this affair are everything, imo. IF Frazier weathers the early Foreman offensive and stays tight, the tide will turn.

Tyson may be slightly better than 4 in 10. I noticed in some of his films that he could come in even lower than Joe. Coming in real low may just be a key in that fight. Tyson also had a stronger punch than Frazier and he may just be able to get one in that hurts Foreman bad real early.

Marciano has much less chance, imo. I think '73 Foreman brutalizes him.

Dempsey probably gets tossed around, too, but I would definitely give him a better chance than Rocky. I perceive him as quicker and fiercer to the target than Rocky.

Jeffries, I don't know enough about the old-time fighters to have an opinion.

So, to answer your question, Tyson at his best probably stands the best chance, with '69-'70 Frazier not too far behind.

Now dont go getting worked up Yance --- most Ali fans dont begrudge you a thread for the FOTC, and I dont carry on about witch doctors and loose ropes in a RITJ thread! Settle back and lets talk Boxing.

My pick is Dempsey --- he and Tyson were the most capable of ending a fight early, whereas the others were more attrition-oriented. Tyson, though, lacks the mental equipment to deal with Foreman, whereas Dempsey would just go for it, backing himself all the way. His chances would be slim, but theyd be better than the rest. Marciano and a younger Frazier, I cant really see cases for.

However, my wildcard in all of this is Jeffries --- its too hard to see for sure how he'd fare, but I consider him very much a bigger, better Marciano, and hes the only one of the five who may be able to refuse being physically overpowered up-close. Too difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt all told, but Id be interested to see it.

As far as Jeffries goes, I just don't know how really good he was. I've never really learned much about fighters that far back.

And I actually agree that Tyson would probably lack the mental equipment to stay in a match with Foreman IF things went bad, but I picked Tyson as having the best chance against '73 Foreman because Tyson could start real fast, had a big punch, and could possibly get to George real quick and then really go wild and finish him. It is not like '73 George was real experienced at knowing what to do when hurt. I still give this scenario less than 50/50, but that is why I picked Tyson. Have you ever noticed how low Tyson could get in the ring? Maybe not often, but I did see him get real low once in a while. Maybe so low to where a big uppercut from George might not be as potent. I could see Tyson coming in real low, exploding a big one on George and finishing him quick.

Agree that Marciano doesn't have much chance, but I still say the best version of Frazier had a viable chance of getting tight and staying there, inside George's punching radius, probably getting pushed around the ring for a few rounds (like Quarry did him in their first round of their first fight when they were glued to each other) but slowly coming on and turning the tide aided by George's stamina issues. Again, a less than 50/50 scenario, but I really could see it happening.

p.s. Hey Irene, I think I'm being quite reasonable by giving these scenarios less than 50/50.

Another fellow on this thread is calling it a Frazier win.

Go after him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I havent, "gone after you," Yance, but you did mention me by name, whereas Elmer didnt.

Besides, you should consider it for what it is...Elmer is beyond help, while you remain among our more respected contributors.

PHYSICALLY, I agree with every word on Tyson. He, like Lennox Lewis, possesses some of the more vital tools to beat Foreman, but again like Lewis, I would expect him to come unstuck. I take the view Tyson would be crippled by Foreman's ring aura, and I cite his clear fear of the old Foreman as proof. That and the style and range deficits evaporate Tyson's chances, and in a way its a shame, because in a way, I consider Tyson a more gifted guy. I certainly agree he has the power, speed and finishing instincts to KO Foreman on paper...the reality would fall down, however.

For a quick guy who had a monster punch, good whiskers (another Tyson attribute) and first-class finishing ability, Dempsey is a better pick against Foreman, IMO (Would Dempsey be intimidated by Foreman? Im not sure...he did once remark from ringside Foreman was the heaviest puncher he had EVER seen. At the least, Id consider him LESS likely to feel or fight scared than the more fragile Tyson).

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Lets just call it for what it would be. Foreman would smash all these guys.

[jrc26]

Lets just call it for what it would be. Foreman would smash all these guys.

I feel like Dempsey survives this one. The others end up about the same as Joe give or take. Of course by survives I mean he doesn't get knocked down six times and lifted into the air by a punch. Win...not so much.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It was never a question of who WOULD get it done, to me anyway (Elmer favours Frazier, unfathomably), but just who had the best chance, and what that chance would be.

Dempsey and slim, IMO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It was never a question of who WOULD get it done, to me anyway (Elmer favours Frazier, unfathomably), but just who had the best chance, and what that chance would be.

Dempsey and slim, IMO.

I know, and I voted Dempsey as well. I'm just pointing out that they all are huge underdogs, and I know you made the post with that in mind, so a big argument on who gets smashed less isn't really warranted.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not everyones seeing it that way, I notice.

[yancey]

Not everyones seeing it that way, I notice.

IF....

D'Amato had not said what he said about no swarmer type ever beating Foreman.....

+

Frazier had been counted out after the 2nd knockdown in Jamaica instead of getting bounced around all over the ring in such one-sided fashion, which I'm sure sticks out in everyone's mind....

would most of you still be so certain that '73 Foreman always smashes every swarmer in history?

Just wondering. Humor me.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm not going by swarmers, just taking George over a group of fighters that were inferior to Frazier. You had to have some major Boxing skills to overcome George, balls and power just weren't enough.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not everyones seeing it that way, I notice.

IF....

D'Amato had not said what he said about no swarmer type ever beating Foreman.....

+

Frazier had been counted out after the 2nd knockdown in Jamaica instead of getting bounced around all over the ring in such one-sided fashion, which I'm sure sticks out in everyone's mind....

would most of you still be so certain that '73 Foreman always smashes every swarmer in history?

Just wondering. Humor me.

Hard to say on the D'Amato quote.

As far as Frazier getting KO'd on the second knockdown, would he be Frazier if that were the case?

I suppose Im not opposed to the idea completely...its just that when I look at the great swarmers (as above), they simply arent good enough. To beat Foreman, you have to be WAY up and over the top if youre a swarmer, because the style disadvantage really is that severe.

But, by all means, if a swarmer comes along with Dempsey's explosiveness, Tyson's handspeed, Jeffries' conditioning, Frazier's heart, and Marciano's filthy tactics, I'll concede Foreman has his work cut out for him!

[Crease]

No Jack Johnson option? I'm surprised at that, wasn't he a pressure fighter?

[Crease]

D'Amato had not said what he said about no swarmer type ever beating Foreman.

I wasn't even aware that Cus said that, it's a good quote. But I tend to agree with him on that.

[Crease]

would most of you still be so certain that '73 Foreman always smashes every swarmer in history?

I think so. I wouldn't bet against Big George anyway.

[Crease]

I'm not going by swarmers, just taking George over a group of fighters that were inferior to Frazier.

That is certainly debatable.

[Counter-puncher]

No Jack Johnson option? I'm surprised at that, wasn't he a pressure fighter?

no, not at all from what i have seen, quite the opposite.

[Crease]

As I've said, I put pick Foreman to beat them all, but if I had to pick one from that list it would be: Rocky Marciano.

The Rock had the punch-power to hurt Foreman, that much is for sure. But more than anything, Rocky would need to rely on his incredible stamina to get him through this.

I would tend to rate Marciano's stamina higher than Dempsey, Tyson or Frazier's and as such I think he stands the best chance of beating Foreman.

If Rocky could take the beating of the first 6-7 rounds, and overload Foreman with a barrage of power punches when Foreman is tired later in the fight, then I think he could do it. It's not inconceivable.

[Crease]

no, not at all from what i have seen, quite the opposite.

I know that he was a very skilled boxer but couldn't he pressure and stalk his opponent when he needed to?

[Goodnight, Irene]

No Jack Johnson option? I'm surprised at that, wasn't he a pressure fighter?

I was going to include him, along with Ali, Holmes and Lewis, but I wanted to keep the poll to a reasonable number.

[Techno89]

As I've said, I put pick Foreman to beat them all, but if I had to pick one from that list it would be: Rocky Marciano.

The Rock had the punch-power to hurt Foreman, that much is for sure. But more than anything, Rocky would need to rely on his incredible stamina to get him through this.

I would tend to rate Marciano's stamina higher than Dempsey, Tyson or Frazier's and as such I think he stands the best chance of beating Foreman.

If Rocky could take the beating of the first 6-7 rounds, and overload Foreman with a barrage of power punches when Foreman is tired later in the fight, then I think he could do it. It's not inconceivable.

Agreed