BoxRec

I solid list Crease, but I think it neglects the pre-Louis era. I do agree that Jack Johnson was probably the best from this time.

No WAY is Walcott E-grade.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:No WAY is Walcott E-grade.

I have 22 fighters there who I think had a better time as a heavyweight. Everyone has to miss a few out. But nobody else has the bottle

In a sense, he certainly could be top 20. Maybe a little ruthless, he wouldn't be far away

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It is not REMOTELY comparable to Ali in the 80's.

If we're judging fighters historically on their, "best," Im going to evaluate Foreman on his bouts with Frazier and Norton. Best Heavy ever!!!

My point was merely an extension of your own. You speak of Tyson when he wasn't at his best and so I spoke of Ali when he wasn't at his best.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The reality is Tyson in 1990-91, and from 95-97 was still a young man

And yet when we speak of 1995-97, we are talking about a Mike Tyson 10 YEARS after he initally won the WBC Title. So that is a big stretch of time.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Bowe, Mercer , Moorer and Foreman were better than Tucker, Tubbs & Berbick.

You do realise that Tucker, Tubbs and Berbick were all World Champions and amongst the top guys of the weight back in the late 1980s Heavyweight division?

And yet you besmirch Tyson for defeating them? Tyson boldly went out and unified three of the titles - and there aren't many fighters who have ever doen that in history... It's a truly remarkable achievement.

JDC wrote:Added

Grade A
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Frazier Joe

Grade B
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Foreman George
Liston Sonny
James Jefferies
Sam Langford

Grade C
Holyfield Evander
Dempsey Jack
Holmes Larry
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike
Joe Jeannette
Harry Wills

Grade D
Schmeling Max
Charles Ezzard
Patterson Floyd
Ingemar Johansson
Sam McVea

Grade E - I don't think these did enough
Baer Max
Norton Ken
Moore Archie
Walcott Jersey Joe

Thanks for adding a few more fighters to your list.


It's always interesting to see how fighters are viewed without reverting to the "who would win between x and y" arguments which inevitably always spark off.

Not so bold or remarkable when you consider who he did it against.

Good, cerainly. Not great.

Another thing to consider that should be considered if how exactly people rate Heavyweights?
Usually it's between a head-to-head basis or an achievement measurement.
Mine if partially both.

JDC wrote:Crease, do you not have James Jefferies or Sam Langford on your list..?
...I'd have them both in or close to my top ten, but if that's how you see it.

I know that you rate Langford very highly. But out of that 20 fighters I mentioned, I thought that James Jeffries was the notable ommission.
Jim Jeffries nearly always makes people's top 20s.

JDC wrote:In a sense, he certainly could be top 20. Maybe a little ruthless, he wouldn't be far away

I don't see how he isn't. He is closer to top 10 than outside 20 for me.

Crease wrote:[quote="SaadOffTheDeck"Bowe, Mercer , Moorer and Foreman were better than Tucker, Tubbs & Berbick.

You do realise that Tucker, Tubbs and Berbick were all World Champions and amongst the top guys of the weight back in the late 1980s Heavyweight division?

And yet you besmirch Tyson for defeating them? Tyson boldly went out and unified three of the titles - and there aren't many fighters who have ever doen that in history... It's a truly remarkable achievement.
[/quote]

There is nothing I don't realize about the 80's. I'm not besmirching anything, just stating facts that you're conveniently ignoring in your ode to Mike Tyson. Your list as a whole isn't terrible, Tyson by leaps and bounds over the guy who made a botch out of him is. No need to carry on any further, your mind is made up even with no rational basis behind you. Think what you will, we will just have to agree that you're wrong and get on with life.

Edit: With domination being your top criteria, you might want to reevaluate where you have Holmes.

Crease wrote:

JDC wrote:Added

Grade A
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Frazier Joe

Grade B
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Foreman George
Liston Sonny
James Jefferies
Sam Langford

Grade C
Holyfield Evander
Dempsey Jack
Holmes Larry
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike
Joe Jeannette
Harry Wills

Grade D
Schmeling Max
Charles Ezzard
Patterson Floyd
Ingemar Johansson
Sam McVea

Grade E - I don't think these did enough
Baer Max
Norton Ken
Moore Archie
Walcott Jersey Joe

Thanks for adding a few more fighters to your list.


It's always interesting to see how fighters are viewed without reverting to the "who would win between x and y" arguments which inevitably always spark off.

Overall, a decent list. I guess my biggest quibble with this would be Johannson. He didn't do as much as Baer, Norton, and Walcott. You could atleast argue for them being in the top 20. What kind of arguement could you make for Johannson?
Some of the Level C guys you could argue for level B. Still, a solid list for the most part.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Edit: With domination being your top criteria, you might want to reevaluate where you have Holmes.

Because I concur with what another guy said a few weeks back:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Tyson sure as eff wasn't getting draws or losing on points to MWs and LHWs like several other Champs. His "tepid" opposition early on was basically the same types of guys Larry Holmes gets his dick sucked for out pointing and Mike massacred them like a bear catching fish.

Crease wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Edit: With domination being your top criteria, you might want to reevaluate where you have Holmes.

Because I concur with what another guy said a few weeks back:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Tyson sure as eff wasn't getting draws or losing on points to MWs and LHWs like several other Champs. His "tepid" opposition early on was basically the same types of guys Larry Holmes gets his dick sucked for out pointing and Mike massacred them like a bear catching fish.

That's just silly, domination is domination. Though it's a stupid criteria to hold over opposition anyway. So I can't say I expect much from you.

Ali Muhammad- A
Baer Max- D
Charles Ezzard- C
Dempsey Jack- B
Foreman George- B
Frazier Joe- A
Holmes Larry- A
Holyfield Evander- B
Johnson Jack- B
Lewis Lennox- B
Liston Sonny- B
Louis Joe- A
Marciano Rocky- A
Moore Archie- D
Norton Ken- D
Patterson Floyd- C
Schmeling Max- C
Tunney Gene- D
Tyson Mike- A
Walcott Jersey Joe- c

Tyson is an A, but Foremans a B? I gotta hear how that works.

Carlos is an unabashed Tyson lover. He might even rate him over the mighty John Conteh.

Ambling Alp wrote:

Crease wrote:

JDC wrote:Added

Grade A
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Frazier Joe

Grade B
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Foreman George
Liston Sonny
James Jefferies
Sam Langford

Grade C
Holyfield Evander
Dempsey Jack
Holmes Larry
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike
Joe Jeannette
Harry Wills

Grade D
Schmeling Max
Charles Ezzard
Patterson Floyd
Ingemar Johansson
Sam McVea

Grade E - I don't think these did enough
Baer Max
Norton Ken
Moore Archie
Walcott Jersey Joe

Thanks for adding a few more fighters to your list.


It's always interesting to see how fighters are viewed without reverting to the "who would win between x and y" arguments which inevitably always spark off.

Overall, a decent list. I guess my biggest quibble with this would be Johannson. He didn't do as much as Baer, Norton, and Walcott. You could atleast argue for them being in the top 20. What kind of arguement could you make for Johannson?
Some of the Level C guys you could argue for level B. Still, a solid list for the most part.

I'd be happy to move many of them through 1 category . Continental European fighters often get underrated (Baer, Schmeling and Johansson all have their merits and they're a little difficult to separate imo)

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

JDC wrote:In a sense, he certainly could be top 20. Maybe a little ruthless, he wouldn't be far away

I don't see how he isn't. He is closer to top 10 than outside 20 for me.

Walcott is closer to being outside the top 20, than Moore is to being in the top 20.

I have others names and I didn't want to stick everyone in D. He isn't far away, but he isn't in my 20. This is considering I haven't mentioned the names Corbett & Sharkey. I rate Walcott similar to these and a cut above the likes of Bowe and Vitali. Top 25, for me, but possibly higher.

Lists are subjective, his resume is quite impressive. I rate good losses very highly and he has two of the highest regard. If a guy that virtually schooled Marciano for 12 rounds, knocked out Ezzard Charles and beat Joe Louis isn't in the top 20, I don't know who is.

Grade A
Definitely a top 10 HW and should be on everyone's list
Ali
Foreman
Frazier
Holmes
Louis

Grade B - Has a good shout being a top 10 - but could be outside it.
Dempsey
Johnson
Lewis
Liston
Marciano
Holyfield

Grade C - Not in the top 10, but definitely top 20
Charles
Tunney
Tyson
Walcott

Grade D - Proabably is in top 20 - but could be outside it.
Norton
Patterson
Schmeling

Grade E - Are you serious? He shouldn't even be mentioned!
Baer (not the above comment, but I think he's just out of the top 20)
Moore (P4P great, but not at heavyweight)

Any big arguements?

Dempsey and Liston in the B category I cannot really see, but its sound beyond that.

JDC wrote:I solid list Crease, but I think it neglects the pre-Louis era.

You know mate, I didn't even realise that I was doing it, if that's even possible.

JDC wrote:Crease, do you not have James Jefferies or Sam Langford on your list..?
...I'd have them both in or close to my top ten, but if that's how you see it.

There's a few I'd have above Baer Max, Walcott & Norton Ken also. I feel this trio is being overrated, but I can understand why in their regard. Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills, Sam McVea and Ingemar Johansson are a few who I have higher.

I have probably excluded Wills, McVea, Jeffries and Langford because I have not seen much of them fighting. And some of the coverage I have seen from them can be scratchy and jumpy and of a poor quality.

But from all accounts that I haveread Langford was a monster... Burt Sugar speaks highly of him.

jezzamundo wrote:Grade A
Definitely a top 10 HW and should be on everyone's list
Ali
Foreman
Frazier
Holmes
Louis

Grade B - Has a good shout being a top 10 - but could be outside it.
Dempsey
Johnson
Lewis
Liston
Marciano
Holyfield

Grade C - Not in the top 10, but definitely top 20
Charles
Tunney
Tyson
Walcott

Grade D - Proabably is in top 20 - but could be outside it.
Norton
Patterson
Schmeling

Grade E - Are you serious? He shouldn't even be mentioned!
Baer (not the above comment, but I think he's just out of the top 20)
Moore (P4P great, but not at heavyweight)

Any big arguements?

No big arguements.
I do think Johnson has to be in the Top 10.
I don't think Charles and Walcott are definetly in the top 20. They among several guys that you could go with, but I have no problem with someone having them just outside of it.
I wouldn't quite Tyson in the top 10, but it is arguable.
Wouldn't put Baer in the top 20, but you could argue for it.

Below is a list of perhaps the 20 greatest Heavyweights in history and five classification groups:
(feel free to include others if you so wish)
Ali Muhammad A
Baer Max E
Charles Ezzard D
Dempsey Jack B
Foreman George A
Frazier Joe A
Holmes Larry C
Holyfield Evander C
Johnson Jack D
Lewis Lennox B
Liston Sonny B
Louis Joe A
Marciano Rocky A
Moore Archie D
Norton Ken E
Patterson Floyd D
Schmeling Max E
Tunney Gene C
Tyson Mike A
Walcott Jersey Joe D