Top 20 Heavyweights: Categories

[Crease]

Below is a list of perhaps the 20 greatest Heavyweights in history and five classification groups:
(feel free to include others if you so wish)

Grade A - Definitely a top 10 HW and should be on everyone's list
Grade B - Has a good shout being a top 10 - but could be outside it.
Grade C - Not in the top 10, but definitely top 20
Grade D - Proabably is in top 20 - but could be outside it.
Grade E - Are you serious? He shouldn't even be mentioned!

Let's see how you got it.

And here come the fighters:
Ali Muhammad
Baer Max
Charles Ezzard
Dempsey Jack
Foreman George
Frazier Joe
Holmes Larry
Holyfield Evander
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Liston Sonny
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Moore Archie
Norton Ken
Patterson Floyd
Schmeling Max
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike
Walcott Jersey Joe

[JDC]

Grade A
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Frazier Joe

Grade B
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Foreman George
Liston Sonny

Grade C
Holyfield Evander
Dempsey Jack
Holmes Larry
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike

Grade D
Schmeling Max
Charles Ezzard
Patterson Floyd

Grade E - I don't think these did enough
Baer Max
Norton Ken
Moore Archie
Walcott Jersey Joe

[Ezzard]

A-Class
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Johnson Jack
Dempsey Jack
Frazier Joe
Holmes Larry
Holyfield Evander

B-Class
Foreman George
Lewis Lennox
Liston Sonny
Marciano Rocky
Tyson Mike
Tunney Gene

C-Class
Walcott Jersey Joe
Charles Ezzard
Schmeling Max

D-Class
Baer Max
Moore Archie
Norton Ken
Patterson Floyd

[Techno89]

Class A:
Marciano Rocky
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Foreman George
Tyson Mike
Frazier Joe

Class B:
Johnson Jack
Liston Sonny
Tunney Gene
Holyfield Evander
Dempsey Jack
Walcott Jersey Joe

Class C:
Charles Ezzard
Holmes Larry
Schmeling Max
Lewis Lennox

Class D:
Baer Max
Moore Archie
Norton Ken
Patterson Floyd

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali Muhammad- A
Baer Max- D
Charles Ezzard- B
Dempsey Jack- B
Foreman George- A
Frazier Joe- A
Holmes Larry- A
Holyfield Evander- A
Johnson Jack- B
Lewis Lennox- B
Liston Sonny- B
Louis Joe- A
Marciano Rocky- B
Moore Archie- D
Norton Ken- D
Patterson Floyd- D
Schmeling Max- C
Tunney Gene- D
Tyson Mike- B
Walcott Jersey Joe- B

[Goodnight, Irene]

Below is a list of perhaps the 20 greatest Heavyweights in history and five classification groups:
(feel free to include others if you so wish)

Grade A - Definitely a top 10 HW and should be on everyone's list
Grade B - Has a good shout being a top 10 - but could be outside it.
Grade C - Not in the top 10, but definitely top 20
Grade D - Proabably is in top 20 - but could be outside it.
Grade E - Are you serious? He shouldn't even be mentioned!

Let's see how you got it.

And here come the fighters:
Ali Muhammad
Baer Max
Charles Ezzard
Dempsey Jack
Foreman George
Frazier Joe
Holmes Larry
Holyfield Evander
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Liston Sonny
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Moore Archie
Norton Ken
Patterson Floyd
Schmeling Max
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike
Walcott Jersey Joe

A-Grade:

Ali
Dempsey
Foreman
Frazier
Holmes
Liston
Louis

B-Grade:

Holyfield
Lewis
Tunney
Tyson

C-Grade:

Charles
Johnson
Marciano
Walcott

D-Grade:

Baer
Norton
Patterson
Schmeling

E-Grade:

None

My top-10 of all-time...

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Foreman
4. Dempsey
5. Liston
6. Frazier
7. Holmes
8. Lewis
9. Holyfield
10. Tyson

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You had Dempsey rated 8th a couple weeks ago. What brought on such a drastic change?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yeah, as I was saying, Ive been revising the list a bit lately, and the two things Im least comfortable with ATM are Tyson in the top-10, and Dempsey as high as that --- but that may just be a result of him not typically being so high in most peoples' lists. Ive usually had Holmes and Liston above him in the past, sometimes Lewis and Holyfield, too --- but his head-to-head ability (IMO, of course) and achievements are such that #4 is plausible enough, though as I say, that and Tyson's inclusion are probably the most contentious points in my list.

[yancey]

Ali Muhammad- A
Baer Max- D
Charles Ezzard- C
Dempsey Jack- B
Foreman George- A
Frazier Joe- A
Holmes Larry- A
Holyfield Evander- A
Johnson Jack- B
Lewis Lennox- B
Liston Sonny- B
Louis Joe- A
Marciano Rocky- B
Moore Archie- D
Norton Ken- D
Patterson Floyd- D
Schmeling Max- C
Tunney Gene- D
Tyson Mike- B
Walcott Jersey Joe- C

Can pretty much agree with this except Rocky is a "C" as he not a Top 10, but definitely inside a Top 20.

[Crease]

You had Dempsey rated 8th a couple weeks ago. What brought on such a drastic change?

Lets try and avoid psoting our top 10s, gents. Is is a universal certainty that everyone's top 10 is in a different order.

However this new way that I have devised, of measuring how people rate the top Heavyweights is a unique way of looking at things, because we are putting fighters into groups or "tiers" as it were.

Should be an intriguing read. But anyways, everyone opinion is different but equally valid.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Mine hasn't changed for a while, but I had many flip-flops through the years and I'm close to dropping Johnson. I don't have an issue with Mike at 8, 9 or 10. the real problem is that people who tend to have Tyson top 10 don't have Holyfield and there is no defending that. He owns him in every aspect of a career. Tyson & Tunney are the two guys given too much leeway on many lists for me.

I rate Charles & Walcott over Tyson. They and Dempsey are my next three.

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Frazier
Lewis
Johnson
Liston
Marciano

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You had Dempsey rated 8th a couple weeks ago. What brought on such a drastic change?

Lets try and avoid psoting our top 10s, gents. Is is a universal certainty that everyone's top 10 is in a different order.

However this new way that I have devised, of measuring how people rate the top Heavyweights is a unique way of looking at things, because we are putting fighters into groups or "tiers" as it were.

Should be an intriguing read. But anyways, everyone opinion is different but equally valid.

I had already typed up that post, no time to delete it. Threads always take their twists and turns. Rankings are inevitable in a thread like this, but I enjoyed the difference.

[Crease]

Grade A - Definitely a top 10 HW and should be on everyone's list
Muhammad Ali
Jack Dempsey
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Mike Tyson

Note: There's quite a few in that bracklet, but I rate these eight fighters as definitely being in the top 10 of all time.
Very few boxers (if any) have achieved what these guys have.


Grade B - Has a good shout being a top 10 - but could be outside it.
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Sonny Liston
Jersey Joe Walcott

Note 2: I do think that the two remaining slots in the top 10 should definitely be contested by any four of these guys.


Grade C - Not in the top 10, but definitely top 20
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Archie Moore
Floyd Patterson
Max Schmeling
Gene Tunney


Grade D - Proabably is in top 20 - but could be outside it.
Max Baer
Ken Norton


Grade E - Are you serious? He shouldn't even be mentioned!

Note 3: I didn't put any of these guys in my "E" class, because I highlighted my top own personal top 20 Heavyweights.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Evander accomplished more than Tyson in every way. Having Mike an A and him a C is indefensible.

[Crease]

Evander accomplished more than Tyson in every way. Having Mike an A and him a C is indefensible.

I respect your opinion mate, but I disagree. Allow me to explain my reasons why.

1. Mike Tyson dominated the Heavyweight Division (1987-89) in a way that Holyfield never did. Tyson unified the three World titles and was the standout, undisputed number one of the weight class. Could Holyfield ever be said to be the clear-cut number one?
I honestly don't think so.

2. Usually when talking about Tyson and Holyfield the fact that Evander defeated him twice is often brought up. But having watched both fight, in my opinion he was not the hungry and ferocious fighter that he was a half-decade before.

3. I tend to always rate Holyfield in my top 15 - I have no doubt that he deserves his place there, but I can't say that he goes in ahead of Liston or Holmes... But he should be ranked somewhere near Lennox Lewis.
If he's not a Grade C - and I only put him in there marginally, then he's definitely a Grade B.

Only my opinion anyway.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Have to agree with Saad. Holyfields gotta be over Tyson historically, IMO.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Evander accomplished more than Tyson in every way. Having Mike an A and him a C is indefensible.

I respect your opinion mate, but I disagree. Allow me to explain my reasons why.

1. Mike Tyson dominated the Heavyweight Division (1987-89) in a way that Holyfield never did. Tyson unified the three World titles and was the standout, undisputed number one of the weight class. Could Holyfield ever be said to be the clear-cut number one?
I honestly don't think so.

2. Usually when talking about Tyson and Holyfield the fact that Evander defeated him twice is often brought up. But having watched both fight, in my opinion he was not the hungry and ferocious fighter that he was a half-decade before.

3. I tend to always rate Holyfield in my top 15 - I have no doubt that he deserves his place there, but I can't say that he goes in ahead of Liston or Holmes... But he should be ranked somewhere near Lennox Lewis.
If he's not a Grade C - and I only put him in there marginally, then he's definitely a Grade B.

Only my opinion anyway.

Tyson doesnt deserve ranking over Liston and Holmes either, though.

Tyson never gets enough criticism for 1990-2005.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Evander accomplished more than Tyson in every way. Having Mike an A and him a C is indefensible.

I respect your opinion mate, but I disagree. Allow me to explain my reasons why.

1. Mike Tyson dominated the Heavyweight Division (1987-89) in a way that Holyfield never did. Tyson unified the three World titles and was the standout, undisputed number one of the weight class. Could Holyfield ever be said to be the clear-cut number one?
I honestly don't think so.

2. Usually when talking about Tyson and Holyfield the fact that Evander defeated him twice is often brought up. But having watched both fight, in my opinion he was not the hungry and ferocious fighter that he was a half-decade before.

3. I tend to always rate Holyfield in my top 15 - I have no doubt that he deserves his place there, but I can't say that he goes in ahead of Liston or Holmes... But he should be ranked somewhere near Lennox Lewis.
If he's not a Grade C - and I only put him in there marginally, then he's definitely a Grade B.

Only my opinion anyway.

Holyfield fought a much greater level of opposition than Tyson did, he was the #1 Heavyweight for a couple years and there was no doubt about it.

Your opinion is that Tyson could have done better earlier. They were at the same stage of their career's and there was no competition between them. Mike said he was jealous of how great a fighter Holyfield was. That is just way too much speculation over what actually transpired.

In any regard, Evander beat better fighters and dominated Tyson head to head. There is just no way to objectively have Mike ahead of him, and by miles is laughable. It's cool to have Holyfield 14th, as long as Tyson isn't any higher than 15.

[Crease]

Tyson never gets enough criticism for 1990-2005.

That's like saying: "Ali never gets enough criticism for hsi record in the '80s... Which is: 0 wins, 2 losses.

And we all know that it doesn't work like that - we judge fighters from at their best.

[Crease]

Holyfield fought a much greater level of opposition than Tyson did

I'm not I would accept that. Who are you referring to? The likes of Bowe, Mercer and McCall?
Are they so much better than Tucker, Tubbs and Berbick?

he was the #1 Heavyweight for a couple years and there was no doubt about it.

And yet the unified titles that he held between 1990-92, it was Tyson who unified them. People tend to forget that.

Mike said he was jealous of how great a fighter Holyfield was.

I don't doubt it whatsoever. Holyfield was a better all-around boxer that Mike. But he didn't achieve what Tyson did.
In the late 90s when Holyfield tried to reunify the titles he was ultimately beat by Lewis

There is just no way to objectively have Mike ahead of him, and by miles is laughable. It's cool to have Holyfield 14th, as long as Tyson isn't any higher than 15.

There's no reason for the attitude mate. You have your opinions and I have mine.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It is not REMOTELY comparable to Ali in the 80's.

If we're judging fighters historically on their, "best," Im going to evaluate Foreman on his bouts with Frazier and Norton. Best Heavy ever!!!

The reality is Tyson in 1990-91, and from 95-97 was still a young man and could have made serious noise any time between 1995-2000...almost ALL of that time was dedicated to circus acts and easy paydays. What hurts him for me is that he made ZERO effort to pursue his title during a long stretch...avoided Foreman, only fought Holyfield thinking it was a soft touch, and Lewis purely for the money...didnt want to know anything about Tua, Ibeabuchi, Byrd, Grant, or any of the top guys to restore his credibility...

No, to me, there is far too little focus on viable periods in Tyson's career he willingly squandered.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

First off, I haven't offered any attitude. You would know it if I was. However misguided your opinion may be, I'm just talking to you. It seems to me you're a giant Tyson fan. Nothing wrong with that, but I can't see any other explanation for these rankings.

Holyfield never faced McCall, but yes, Bowe, Mercer , Moorer and Foreman were better than Tucker, Tubbs & Berbick. He also faced Lewis before he was at a time when people would just gloss over the beating and not count it.

I don't know anyone who forgot that Tyson unified the titles. Good for him, that is a nice notch in his belt to make up for his low level wins.

If you listed their top 5 wins, Evander would have all of them. Two of them being over Tyson. Not only do you have Tyson ahead of Evander, many make that mistake, you don't even consider them to be in the same tier. It's all opinions on here, in this regard yours is wrong and I've seen no valid points from you to the contrary.

[dr_devious]

Ali Muhammad - A
Baer Max - D
Charles Ezzard - C
Dempsey Jack - A
Foreman George - A
Frazier Joe - A
Holmes Larry - A
Holyfield Evander - B
Johnson Jack - A
Lewis Lennox - A
Liston Sonny - A
Louis Joe - A
Marciano Rocky - B
Moore Archie - E
Norton Ken - D
Patterson Floyd - D
Schmeling Max - C
Tunney Gene - C
Tyson Mike - B
Walcott Jersey Joe - C

[Ambling Alp]

Grade A
Ali
Foreman
Frazier
Holmes
Johnson
Louis

Grade B
Dempsey
Liston
Marciano
Holyfield
Lewis

Grade C
Tunney

Grade D
Baer
Charles
Norton
Patterson
Schmeling
Walcott

Grade E
Moore

Out of these guys, Tunney is the line in the sand. He is behind a and B, ahead of everyone in D and E. He isn't top 10, but is certainly top 20.

All of the Class D guys you certainly could make a case for Top20, but you could make arguements for them being behind several fighters who aren't mentioned here. (Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Langford, Wills, Jeannette, McVey,Sharkey, and Bowe.)

You can make a good case that Moore was the best light heavyweight ever. As a heavyweight, he isn't remotely close to the Top 20.

[JDC]

Added

Grade A
Ali Muhammad
Louis Joe
Marciano Rocky
Frazier Joe

Grade B
Johnson Jack
Lewis Lennox
Foreman George
Liston Sonny
James Jefferies
Sam Langford

Grade C
Holyfield Evander
Dempsey Jack
Holmes Larry
Tunney Gene
Tyson Mike
Joe Jeannette
Harry Wills

Grade D
Schmeling Max
Charles Ezzard
Patterson Floyd
Ingemar Johansson
Sam McVea

Grade E - I don't think these did enough
Baer Max
Norton Ken
Moore Archie
Walcott Jersey Joe

Finally a few more people recognising that Archie Moore has no place on a list of top 20 heavyweights.

Crease, do you not have James Jefferies or Sam Langford on your list..?
...I'd have them both in or close to my top ten, but if that's how you see it.

There's a few I'd have above Baer Max, Walcott & Norton Ken also. I feel this trio is being overrated, but I can understand why in their regard. Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills, Sam McVea and Ingemar Johansson are a few who I have higher.

So, for me 4 of them are in my E category. (Archie Moore, Baer Max, Walcott & Norton Ken)

Jefferies and Langford are in B

Jeannette and Wills are in C

McVea and Johansson are in D