BoxRec

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:The man isnt that far off the mark in a way, there is always legit 'hang ups' in every match in every fighters career, whether that be a cold, broken toe, old age, etc. these things are all apart of the human element in determining someone's all around worth, the question is just how major is all the variables in considering how much it disabled an opponent.

So, Rufus, you agree with his contention that Ali was a fraud and we are all eejits who can't see the truth?

Or maybe you are just waffling shite yet again?

I am saying EVERY fighter has fought someone with some variable against them, or EVERY fight has fought and had something going against them that's more than meets the eye. Take Marciano, for instance. People point out that most his high profile opponents were older, but when you factor in the numbers Ali actually fought much older men than Marciano did. Then again, in Marciano's time men were burnt out by their mid 30's because they fought more often.

Here's a good modern example, Gerrie Coetzee. How often did Coetzee fight with an injured hand? He wasnt called the Bionic Hand for nothing, he had pins all over his right hand. That's just one variable that worked against him. Or how about his opponents? Leon Spinks was an admitted druggy, and Coetzee blew him away in one round. Just how much did the coke take away from Spinks. There really is more than what meets the eye in fights; kinda like Bob Foster as a heavyweight, in the gym he was kayoing the big men, but outside the gym he lost to Ali, Frazier, etc.

There's many questions that remain unanswered as to how much certain things effect someone's performance. And a bigger question of how much does something effect the man they are fighting. Take John L. Sullivan for example, had he not drank himself almost to death and almost died several months earlier prior to his fight with Jake Kilrain, just how quickly would he of dispatched of Kilrain had he been in tip top shape to begin with? Or what if Sugar Ray Robinson of fought Maxim in a cooler environment and not of gotten dehydrated? There's so many questions that remain unsettled.

Now, all you saw was me giving Ali some criticism, when that wasn't my point. The point is there is much to consider in determining just how monumental was someone's victories when there is evidence that someone was either old, sick, injured, etc.

Il Duce wrote:True or False,

Muhammad Ali opted out of a bout with Lorenzo Zanon, then Duane Bobick to take on Alfredo Evangelista.

Though contracts were signed, and money had already exchanged hands.

He can't back up his kook charges that a fight was fixed, so now he wants to start giving quizzes.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:The man isnt that far off the mark in a way, there is always legit 'hang ups' in every match in every fighters career, whether that be a cold, broken toe, old age, etc. these things are all apart of the human element in determining someone's all around worth, the question is just how major is all the variables in considering how much it disabled an opponent.

So, Rufus, you agree with his contention that Ali was a fraud and we are all eejits who can't see the truth?

Or maybe you are just waffling shite yet again?

Now, all you saw was me giving Ali some criticism, when that wasn't my point. The point is there is much to consider in determining just how monumental was someone's victories when there is evidence that someone was either old, sick, injured, etc.

No, Rufus, you started out saying that nutjob troll was making valid points. ie

"The man isnt that far off the mark in a way"

Il Duce wrote:True or False,

Muhammad Ali opted out of a bout with Lorenzo Zanon, then Duane Bobick to take on Alfredo Evangelista.

Though contracts were signed, and money had already exchanged hands.

From this we are supposed to deduce that Ali was afraid he'd be exposed by Legendary Lorenzo Zanon?

So he went for the less dangerous Deadly Duane Bobick, then realising that phenom was too much, he opted for Awful Alfredo Evangelista.

Yeah, works for me.

By the way, like you, I also believe the moon landings were faked, Prince Philip is a shape-shifting alien and Joe Fazier was a great singer.

Giancarlo wrote:

Il Duce wrote:True or False,

Muhammad Ali opted out of a bout with Lorenzo Zanon, then Duane Bobick to take on Alfredo Evangelista.

Though contracts were signed, and money had already exchanged hands.

From this we are supposed to deduce that Ali was afraid he'd be exposed by Legendary Lorenzo Zanon?

So he went for the less dangerous Deadly Duane Bobick, then realising that phenom was too much, he opted for Awful Alfredo Evangelista.

Yeah, works for me.

By the way, like you, I also believe the moon landings were faked, Prince Philip is a shape-shifting alien and Joe Fazier was a great singer.

Il Duce wrote:Facts are Facts,,,,,,,,

The 'Old and Slow' Muhammad Ali avoided 'chinny' Lorenzo and 'plodding' Duane in favor of
the Uruguayan Evengelista, who himself had a weight problem.

Wasn't that a great fight.....

Lorenzo would have been too fast for Fatso Ali, and right-jabbed him 'Italian Style', only to have
the Judges rally to steal the win for Mr. Ali.

Duane Bobick in late-1976/early-1977 would be too strong for the light-punching 'Evangelista Beater',
and would have mauled Fatso Ali, enroute to a dull Decision win.

So I've got this straight:
The judges would've robbed Zanon, but not Bobick?

Rover wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Facts are Facts,,,,,,,,

The 'Old and Slow' Muhammad Ali avoided 'chinny' Lorenzo and 'plodding' Duane in favor of
the Uruguayan Evengelista, who himself had a weight problem.

Wasn't that a great fight.....

Lorenzo would have been too fast for Fatso Ali, and right-jabbed him 'Italian Style', only to have
the Judges rally to steal the win for Mr. Ali.

Duane Bobick in late-1976/early-1977 would be too strong for the light-punching 'Evangelista Beater',
and would have mauled Fatso Ali, enroute to a dull Decision win.

So I've got this straight:
The judges would've robbed Zanon, but not Bobick?

Okay, You just don’t get it, do you?

Well, if you’re so sold on Ali then answer this… Why did he avoid Zanon? Refuse a rematch with Foreman? Quit on his stool against Holmes? Stay retired and duck Tyson? And we’re talking peak Tyson. He could have come out of retirement for that one. Instead he chose the safe option, at home with his wife and family. I think we all know why.

Later on where was he when Bowe won the title? Bowe wanted that fight. Where was Ali? You can’t answer, can you? Bowe even used to impersonate Ali.

Last week my neighbour posted a challenge to Ali on Facebook. So far he’s received no communication. Silence speaks volumes in this instance. That’s a fact. Ali couldn’t beat my neighbour who is on a 55 year lay off from the ring and can barely mow his lawn without putting his back out.

Ali’s too busy lighting Olympic torches. Total fraud.

Ezzard wrote:

Rover wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Facts are Facts,,,,,,,,

The 'Old and Slow' Muhammad Ali avoided 'chinny' Lorenzo and 'plodding' Duane in favor of
the Uruguayan Evengelista, who himself had a weight problem.

Wasn't that a great fight.....

Lorenzo would have been too fast for Fatso Ali, and right-jabbed him 'Italian Style', only to have
the Judges rally to steal the win for Mr. Ali.

Duane Bobick in late-1976/early-1977 would be too strong for the light-punching 'Evangelista Beater',
and would have mauled Fatso Ali, enroute to a dull Decision win.

So I've got this straight:
The judges would've robbed Zanon, but not Bobick?

Okay, You just don’t get it, do you?

Well, if you’re so sold on Ali then answer this… Why did he avoid Zanon? Refuse a rematch with Foreman? Quit on his stool against Holmes? Stay retired and duck Tyson? And we’re talking peak Tyson. He could have come out of retirement for that one. Instead he chose the safe option, at home with his wife and family. I think we all know why.

Later on where was he when Bowe won the title? Bowe wanted that fight. Where was Ali? You can’t answer, can you? Bowe even used to impersonate Ali.

Last week my neighbour posted a challenge to Ali on Facebook. So far he’s received no communication. Silence speaks volumes in this instance. That’s a fact. Ali couldn’t beat my neighbour who is on a 55 year lay off from the ring and can barely mow his lawn without putting his back out.

Ali’s too busy lighting Olympic torches. Total fraud.

Surprised the computer fight with Marciano hasn't come up yet.

The saddest and latest chapter of his ducking is that Ali has reportedly ignored offered contracts from both K Bros.

BoxBuzz wrote:The saddest and latest chapter of his ducking is that Ali has reportedly ignored offered contracts from both K Bros.

Didn't Wilder challenge him after that KO of ATG Price?

Il Duce wrote:Truth,,

Alfredo Evangelista won more rounds against Champion - Muhammad Ali than he did against Lorenzo Zanon.

Lorenzo Zanon, 'I beat the Spanish off of Alfredo, and won 7 of the 8 Rounds. And he gets a title fight verus Ali.
I was told, I looked too fast, and would embarrass the Champion. Mama mia.'

Evangelista lost both fights.
I assume Zanon successfully sued for breach of contract, correct?
Or was it one of those fights where the two of them signed a tentative agreement and Zanon wanted more money than King was willing to offer?

Not sure where you’re coming from Il Duce…but I like where it’s heading.

Really though, is your forum name not in bad taste?

Il Duce wrote:Computer Results (January 1977)

Lorenzo Zanon scores a Majority Decision over Champion - Muhammad Ali.

The southpaw style and fast-footwork of the tall Italian outspeeds a slow-footed and
lumbering aged Champion, who fought like his boxing shoes were filled with Italian Cement.

Zanon, using a snappy right jab, and quick left hand leads, bloodied Muhammad Ali's nose
in Round 4.

By Round 6, the Champion was pressing in an attempt to score a one-punch knockout, while
abandoning his box-and-move style.

But the slickster Zanan, kept on the move, and at times embarrassed the slow Champion
by landing quick right-lefts on Ali's nose. By Round 10, Muhammad Ali was still moving
forward, but was unable to land a telling-blow on the moving Challenger.

In Round 11, Zanon landed several snappy punches on the Champion, puffing up Ali's
left eye. At Rounds end, Zanon raised his hands over his head, letting the crowd know who
was in charge. A frustrated Champion then punched (cheap-shotted) Lorenzo in the back of the head.

Referee, Arthur Mercante then penalized the Champion 1-Point for an intentional foul.

After Round 11, Lorenzo Zanon leads on all 3-Scorecards
* 107-104
* 106-104
* 107-105

You actually rely on computer simulations?
Pathetic.

Rover wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Computer Results (January 1977)

Lorenzo Zanon scores a Majority Decision over Champion - Muhammad Ali.

The southpaw style and fast-footwork of the tall Italian outspeeds a slow-footed and
lumbering aged Champion, who fought like his boxing shoes were filled with Italian Cement.

Zanon, using a snappy right jab, and quick left hand leads, bloodied Muhammad Ali's nose
in Round 4.

By Round 6, the Champion was pressing in an attempt to score a one-punch knockout, while
abandoning his box-and-move style.

But the slickster Zanan, kept on the move, and at times embarrassed the slow Champion
by landing quick right-lefts on Ali's nose. By Round 10, Muhammad Ali was still moving
forward, but was unable to land a telling-blow on the moving Challenger.

In Round 11, Zanon landed several snappy punches on the Champion, puffing up Ali's
left eye. At Rounds end, Zanon raised his hands over his head, letting the crowd know who
was in charge. A frustrated Champion then punched (cheap-shotted) Lorenzo in the back of the head.

Referee, Arthur Mercante then penalized the Champion 1-Point for an intentional foul.

After Round 11, Lorenzo Zanon leads on all 3-Scorecards
* 107-104
* 106-104
* 107-105

You actually rely on computer simulatios?
Pathetic.

No.

Cool.

Il Duce wrote:Ezzard,

I guess the forum name could be miscontrued in the wrong way.

I regard 'Il Duce' (doo-chay) as more of a chief.

Getting back to the Computer - Muhammad Ali vs. Lorenzo Zanon.

Muhammad Ali would have his best round in the 12th, when he finally was able to land
several good right hands, which wobbled Lorenzo. It appeared that Zanon might tumble,
but the Italian had good legs, and scampered out of harms way, and even comes back
with a good 5-punch flurry near rounds end.

An exhausted Champion plods out for Round 13, and Zanon peppers Ali with quick right
jabs to the face, then moves out. Ali knowing he is behind, is loading up with the right,
and tries in vain to land a 'haymaker'. Zanon, keeps circling to his right, away from Ali's
right, and boxes smartly. At the 2:30 Mark, Ali misses badly with a right hand lead, and
Zanon counters with a picture-perfect hard left to Ali's jaw, which snaps his head sideways.

Ali backs up, apparently stunned, and goes to ropes with his gloves held high in front of his face.
Zanon moves in, and snaps off of a 9-punch flurry, then backs off, not wanting to burn up any
energy. Round Ends.

Didn't know fights were fought on a computer.

My friend, "keyboard warriors" are now the single greatest source of ferocity on the planet.

One keyboard warrior claims the ability to beat all the boxing greats in a single night. Who? The Mighty Zellenoff.

I hear He pounded out these words on his own computer, and then by himself with NO assistance posted it to this very forum.

Based on this, who can doubt his ability to make manifest his claim?

BoxBuzz wrote:My friend, "keyboard warriors" are now the single greatest source of ferocity on the planet.

One keyboard warrior claims the ability to beat all the boxing greats in a single night. Who? The Mighty Zellenoff.

I hear He pounded out these words on his own computer, and then by himself with NO assistance posted it to this very forum.

Based on this, who can doubt his ability to make manifest his claim?

You're on fire today.

Il Duce wrote:The 26 1/2 year-old Lorenzo Zanon,,,,,,,

Record of 18-2-1 (5 KO's)

Had everything that would bother an 'Old Man Ali',

* Youth (Age 26 1/2)
* Speed afoot
* Quick-hands
* Ring generalship
* In-and-Out movement
* Southpaw-stance
* Stamina
* Suprising strength (205 lbs.)
* Height 6' 2"
* Reach

Though Lorenzo's chin was not made of Italian Granite, Muhammad was 'too slow' and lacked
the 'one-punch power' to get Lorenzo out of there.

So Zanon didn't like King's money terms, or did he successfully sue for breach of contract?

Il Duce wrote:Muhammad Ali side-stepped over his Manager's wishes, and signed to fight Duane Bobick, and accepted a
$150,000 deposit in November 1976.

Lorenzo Zanon was signed up in October 1976, right after the Ali vs. Norton III 'controversy'.

Lorenzo got 'step-aside' money, with an 'honest contract' to fight on the undercard of the Ali-Bobick fight,
which was supposed to take place in Madison Square Garden in February 1977.

So in other words, he didn't sue.

Are we talking about the Lorenzo Zanon who was kayoed by John L. Gardner? And stopped by Dante Cane, the italian answer to Don Cockell?

Gift italian draw against Randy Stephens 8-20-1.

Oh yes, he would have been able to take out Ali in about three rounds. The fight would have to be stopped because of Ali having severe stomach cramps because of laughing too much.

Woller

Woller wrote:Are we talking about the Lorenzo Zanon who was kayoed by John L. Gardner? And stopped by Dante Cane, the italian answer to Don Cockell?

Gift italian draw against Randy Stephens 8-20-1.

Oh yes, he would have been able to take out Ali in about three rounds. The fight would have to be stopped because of Ali having severe stomach cramps because of laughing too much.

Woller

But...some computer said Zanon would've won a majority decision!
Those sims always crack me up; how could a computer know how human beings would score a fight?
It couldn't.

Il Duce wrote:Yes,,,,

That Lorenzo Zanon.

Speed frightened Muhammad Ali then, not slow hard-hitting plodders who got tired after a few rounds.

Round 14. Angelo Dundee tells his fighter, 'You're behind. You have to win one of these last 2-rounds big.
I need a knockdown Muhammad'

Ali comes out, and attacks quickly, hoping to catch Zanon off-guard. But the younger and leaner (205 lb.)
Challenger has good legs, and moves side-to-side, which baffles the plodding 234 lb. Fat Ali.
But Muhammad is determined to win the round, and slams wide right hands into the left side of Zanon's
side. Lorenzo continues to move, and not allow the Champion to get set. The Italian sends a few right
jabs out from long range, but Ali is not bothered by the light punching.

Ali lands a good left hook to Zanon's chin, which stuns Lorenzo, and the Italian clinches. Ali tries to throw
Zanon off, but the Italian has his arms wrapped around Ali like Fresh Scungili.

Muhammad is exhausted over the last 30-Seconds, and he has nothing left. Zanon pecks and pokes a few times,
but Muhammad has done enough to win the round.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, is this that magical computer who knows how human beings are going to score a fight even though we don't know what human beings will even be appointed as judges?

Il Duce wrote:The Computer Knows All.........

Entering Round 15, the scorecards
* 135 - 133 (Zanon)
* 134 - 134 (Even)
* 135 - 133 (Zanon)

All Lorenzo Zanon has to do is stay on his feet in Round 15, and the 7-1 Underdog will 'Upset'
the 'out-of-shape' Champion.

Muhammad Ali needs to have a 'big round 15', or score a knockdown to keep his Championship
by a 15-Round Draw. But, his corner advises the Champion to go out for a knockout, and
leave nothing in the tank.

The Round,

The Champion comes out stalking, trying to set the Challenger up for a wide left hook or big straight right hand
down Broadway. But Lorenzo is too smart, and moves side-to-side, then backs away. Ali presses, and starts
to wing from long range, but he has hardly anything left, as he is weary. Zanon easily picks off the wide punches,
and even counters back with a sharp left hand to the head.

Ali is able to back Zanon into the ropes, and wails away while Zanon keeps his gloves high, protecting his suspect
chin. The crowd goes wild, as they believe the Champion is going to do the unthinkable. Ali pounds away with lefts and
rights to the body, but after a 25-second assault, he is arm weary and completely exhausted.

Zanon spins out off the ropes, and Ali falls face first into the ropes. Zanon has an opportunity to finish off the
exhausted Champion, but backs off and allows Ali to re-adjust. Zanon moves in, and triples up on his right jab, then
drops in a straight left that splits Ali's lower lip wide open.

Zanon quickly fires off a one-two, but backs off when it is obvious that Ali is no threat to do any damage. Zanon
boxes from long range over the last 25-seconds, as the Champion slowly moves forward while looking for one-punch.

The Final Bell Rings.

The computer couldn't know all. More nonsense from you. It couldn't know how *humans* would score a fight given boxing's subjectivity.

Il Duce wrote:The computer knew that Muhammad Ali would be 'fat' in February 1977.

And he was......

You have to give the computer kudo's for that.

Uh, what's "fat"?
And Ali didn't have an actual professional boxing match in February 1977, correct?
And who knows what info was fed into that computer, and that post again has nothing to do with my point, which is that a computer couldn't know how human beings would score a fight in a subjective sport.

...what was the attendance?...