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Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 10:08
by stujones
I think the word great is used to readily, for me Ottke and Calzaghe needed each other before either could be labelled great.
However, Ottke vs Calzaghe a few years ago wouldn't have clear cut as people think. Ottke was a tricky costumer and awkard - not one of their common opponents (apart for Reid) have indicated that Calzaghe would walk through Ottke. Ottke does need to be respected a dual world champion, some people might not agree with all of his decisions but he wons those belts from the champions fair enough.
I think because Ottke continually fights in Germany he has been given a harsh deal with the neutrals. I actually think for the vast majority of his fights the judges have got it spot on (if anything a little harsh on Ottke). I think every time Ottke is in a close one people assume its been a robbery. For me, his performance vs Byron Mitchell was his finest hour and he won that one by a wide margin - yet because the official verdict was a SD people assume he was given a gift.
Same with the Robin Reid to some degree, I can't see how that fight was scored to Reid if you go by the referee's decisions. It was a close fight regardless of point deductions and non- knock downs. Watch that fight again with Duke and Jim moaning.
Ottke was a good champion that must be respect, great is a little higher - you need to fight the very best to be a great, Ottke didn't - neither did Calzaghe.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 10:21
by steve689
I don't think i made myself entirely clear in my last post, i predict that the Ottke that fought Reid would get beaten easily by Calzaghe, early Ottke would pose him more problems and last the distance but still lose on points, i think Ottke-Reid was maybe a draw although a case for both could have been argued. I believe Mundine is not pleased about the retirement, he was due for a rematch with Ottke, maybe Ottke had half an eye on that potential rematch when he retired. The underrated Mundine would have made no mistakes next time round imo and settled the score.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:32
by glittermonkey
OH MY GOD!!!
Ottke a great? Give us a break, this is surely the biggest wind up ever. I have to confess i did a double take when i saw the title of this thread.
Ottke just has too much controversy surrounding his career to be labled as a great fighter. There are too many wins on his record that could have been defeats, had the judges been a little more impartial.
Think how well he would have fared against other great fighters. I can't think of one true great that he might have beaten.
Good, maybe. Great, don't insult our intelligence!!
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:35
by Southpaw Stylist
If Ottke is great, what is Roy Jones?
Don't dare categorise them as the same either.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:38
by bennie
Southpaw Stylist wrote:If Ottke is great, what is Roy Jones?
Don't dare categorise them as the same either.
Stu Jones said the way to earn greatness is to beat greatness. I agree. So Roy Jones ain't a great fighter. Who has he beaten?
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:38
by Southpaw Stylist
Bernard Hopkins and James Toney.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:41
by bennie
Southpaw Stylist wrote:Bernard Hopkins and James Toney.
Is that supposed to impress me. Jones stunk the joint out against Hopkins - and please don't tell me Toney is a great fighter. His best wins are over a jailbird druggie (Nunn) and a southpaw plodder who's just lost to Joe Mesi (Jirov).
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:43
by Southpaw Stylist
Ok, you don't rate Jones and Toney, but you rate Ottke?
Real smart.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:44
by MightyWarrior
He'll go down as a great maybe, but only in Germany. I do admire him though, just for the way he always found a way to do just enough to get a win. Even if it was a bit dubious at times, I don't remember any truly outrageous rip-offs ( that I heard of anyway ) where the judges never worked again etc..
And he fought some pretty hard men in his time. If he's truly retired, it's ironic that he saved one of his best to last - which rarely happens in boxing.
I thought he looked as good as ever last night, completely controlled the other guy and did a lot of damage. Completely relaxed and seemed to enjoy himself in there: one of his best fights maybe.
But he did duck the best fighter in his weight class: Joe Calazghe.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:50
by bennie
Southpaw Stylist wrote:Ok, you don't rate Jones and Toney, but you rate Ottke?
Real smart.
I don't rate either in terms of boxing history. Jones wouldn't have lasted six minutes with Bob Foster - and Chris Eubank was a better super-middle than Ottke. But in today's muddled, diluted and ever-changing world title scene, I would call Ottke great, yes.
Think of how many times the WBC super-middleweight title changed hands while Ottke was IBF king.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:56
by Southpaw Stylist
The thing is, before Jones fought Ruiz, people were saying that he could lose and he shouldn't take this fight etc etc. As soon as he whipped him, people were criticising him again. I think the only thing to say is that boxing fans are just fickle as fornicate and there is no pleasing them. If any boxer can go into his career knowing this, they'll be better off in the long run.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I 've heard you (Bennie) criticise Ottke blind, but cos he's retired, you're getting all sentimental calling him a great fighter.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 16:59
by stujones
I have to say I'm quite shocked at Bennie here, Roy Jones not a great - he's beaten Bernard Hopkins and shut out Lights out.
Disagree with this view big style.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:00
by Southpaw Stylist
Not to mention he pussy whipped a legitimate heavyweight title holder.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:03
by bennie
Southpaw Stylist wrote:The thing is, before Jones fought Ruiz, people were saying that he could lose and he shouldn't take this fight etc etc. As soon as he whipped him, people were criticising him again. I think the only thing to say is that boxing fans are just fickle as fornicate and there is no pleasing them. If any boxer can go into his career knowing this, they'll be better off in the long run.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I 've heard you (Bennie) criticise Ottke blind, but cos he's retired, you're getting all sentimental calling him a great fighter.
Naturally. Retirement is the time to sit back and judge a man's overall career. He never lost a fight. He fought stiff opposition throughout his career. And, if a win was controversial, he offered opponents a second chance.
He didn't do bad for a guy who was nearly 30 when he turned pro.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:06
by bennie
stujones wrote:I have to say I'm quite shocked at Bennie here, Roy Jones not a great - he's beaten Bernard Hopkins and shut out Lights out.
Disagree with this view big style.
Roy Jones is a great all right. A great matchmaker.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:15
by TT
Sven Ottke: A medicore fighter with a Great record
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:16
by stujones
bennie wrote:stujones wrote:I have to say I'm quite shocked at Bennie here, Roy Jones not a great - he's beaten Bernard Hopkins and shut out Lights out.
Disagree with this view big style.
Roy Jones is a great all right. A great matchmaker.
Yeah he is - "I'll fight the best Middleweight of a generation, the best Super Middleweight of a generation, the dual light heavyweight world champion, a universally recognised top 5 heavyweight and then move back down and fight an opponent people have wanted to see me fight for years, when I'm not in tip top shape".
Thats a great to me.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:20
by bennie
stujones wrote:bennie wrote:stujones wrote:I have to say I'm quite shocked at Bennie here, Roy Jones not a great - he's beaten Bernard Hopkins and shut out Lights out.
Disagree with this view big style.
Roy Jones is a great all right. A great matchmaker.
Yeah he is - "I'll fight the best Middleweight of a generation, the best Super Middleweight of a generation, the dual light heavyweight world champion, a universally recognised top 5 heavyweight and then move back down and fight an opponent people have wanted to see me fight for years, when I'm not in tip top shape".
Thats a great to me.
Yeah, and he looked lousy every time.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:25
by stujones
bennie wrote:stujones wrote:bennie wrote:
Roy Jones is a great all right. A great matchmaker.
Yeah he is - "I'll fight the best Middleweight of a generation, the best Super Middleweight of a generation, the dual light heavyweight world champion, a universally recognised top 5 heavyweight and then move back down and fight an opponent people have wanted to see me fight for years, when I'm not in tip top shape".
Thats a great to me.
Yeah, and he looked lousy every time.
It looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one - the only time he looked lousy was against Tarver, who in reality isn't good enough to win a round against peak Jones.
Any win vs a fellow great like Hopkins is good performance in my book. Hopkins ran him pretty close, but Jones was always in "control". He was electric against James Toney and very impressive against Ruiz. Didn't see his performance against Johnston.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:31
by bish
A very medicore champion.The feather fisted one wouldnt have gone three rounds with Calzaghe!
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:32
by bennie
stujones wrote:bennie wrote:stujones wrote:
Yeah he is - "I'll fight the best Middleweight of a generation, the best Super Middleweight of a generation, the dual light heavyweight world champion, a universally recognised top 5 heavyweight and then move back down and fight an opponent people have wanted to see me fight for years, when I'm not in tip top shape".
Thats a great to me.
Yeah, and he looked lousy every time.
It looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one - the only time he looked lousy was against Tarver, who in reality isn't good enough to win a round against peak Jones.
Any win vs a fellow great like Hopkins is good performance in my book. Hopkins ran him pretty close, but Jones was always in "control". He was electric against James Toney and very impressive against Ruiz. Didn't see his performance against Johnston.
Yeah, but did he stop any of them? Did he really stamp his authority or settle for the points? I'll tell you. He did what Sven Ottke did and settled for the points. If Jones is great, I guess Ottke is as well.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:33
by beduff
bennie why dont you change your username to, i talk a lot of bollocks?
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:33
by Southpaw Stylist
Who did Ottke offer rematches against?
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:35
by bennie
beduff wrote:bennie why dont you change your username to, i talk a lot of bollocks?
Why don't you change yours to, 'I don't know enough about boxing to debate the sport intelligently'.
Posted: 28 Mar 2004, 17:36
by Southpaw Stylist
Southpaw Stylist wrote:Who did Ottke offer rematches against?