Cassius Clay vs. Ingemar Johansson

[klompton]

Awwww, another staged event just for the benefit of building the myth of Ali...

[Thunder and Lightning]

Im not an Ali die hard. Im just someone who sees things as they are. In 1961 Ingo was damaged goods and even at his best he was ordinary when you took away his right hand. If Ali could do this, which isnt out of the realm of possibility because yes, I grudgingly admit as a Frazier fan that he was special.

The initial post didnt specify when in 1961. If you are saying February when they sparred then lets get a couple facts straight. First everybody agreed that Ali made Johannson look ordinary. If you dont believe look it up, the papers were there and covered it. Ingemar was impressed with Ali and Ali stated exactly what I did, if you could stay away from his right he was nothing. Nothing I have seen mentioned anything about him being gassed and the film doesnt show it either. In fact it shows Ali as much MUCH faster, and repeatedly making Johannson miss and pay. By October 1961 Ali's people had offered Johannson 100,000 to face Ali and Johannson declined. First he stated he hadnt heard of the offer then he stated he was only interested in Liston. By February Ali was already trained for 8 rounders so its not a stretch that he could have gone a two extra rounds with a limited guy like Johannson. By October when the fight was being floated he had already been ten rounds and did so easily. Its silly to suggest he somehow had stamina problems at this point. Finally to call him only a skinny 190 pounder is pretty weak. The guy was weighed 190, 195, 192, 194 and stood 6' 2" at least. Which means he would have had height, reach, and speed advantages and would have weighed the same as Ingemar. You make it sound like he weighed 160 or something.

Klompton in other threads I have agreed with almost everything youve said but here i think you are very wrong.

Ingemar Johansson wasn't realy a one trick pony sure the big right was his best wepon and the left wasnt good at all but Ingo used it to the best of his ability probing with it looking for openings and he also had imo very underated speed and quick reflexes, pretty fast hands too.
Eddie Machen and Floyd Patterson aperently had problem taking away his right hand and they where alot more experinsed and probably better fighters than young Ali too, also Johansson wasn't impressed by Ali in their sparring he realy disliked him and said he was a horrible sparringpartner from everything i've heard but like previous posters said sparring and fighting are very diffrent things.

Like I said i think Ali is the best of alltime but pitting a 19year old kid (even if it is the greatest) against a just unseated champion isn't fair, he hadn't faced anyone even close to that level and asuming he would win is realy saying more about what you think about Johansson than about Ali.

[klompton]

That's true. Outside of his right hand I don't think much of Johannson. I think he was extremely ordinary and predictable. I think Patterson and Machen basically didn't know what to expect against him. Its doubtful either had seen him fight. In addition to that I think the bloom was off the rose after his loss to Patterson. I think his confidence wasn't the same, he was never one to put everything into his training and that got worse even after he won the title. I don't think its out of the question to suggest a young, fast, and skilled guy like Ali could upset Johannson in 10 rounds. I think you basically have to say that Johannson would have to knock Ali out. I don't see him winning on points. So if you believe that, as I do, its not a stretch to think that someone of Ali's ability, even then, could stay away from the one dimensional, standup European fighter and win a decision.

[Giancarlo]

To think that some people are so blind

You mean the guy who 'read' that article on the Ali - London fight and came away thinking Harold Macmillan was a sports journo?

That guy is as thick as pig sh1t.

That is the guy you are talking about, right?

[Thunder and Lightning]

That's true. Outside of his right hand I don't think much of Johannson. I think he was extremely ordinary and predictable. I think Patterson and Machen basically didn't know what to expect against him. Its doubtful either had seen him fight. In addition to that I think the bloom was off the rose after his loss to Patterson. I think his confidence wasn't the same, he was never one to put everything into his training and that got worse even after he won the title. I don't think its out of the question to suggest a young, fast, and skilled guy like Ali could upset Johannson in 10 rounds. I think you basically have to say that Johannson would have to knock Ali out. I don't see him winning on points. So if you believe that, as I do, its not a stretch to think that someone of Ali's ability, even then, could stay away from the one dimensional, standup European fighter and win a decision.

The third fight between Patterson and Johansson begs to differ though it was a competetive fight and Johansson dropped Patterson twice and had him hurt despite the fact that he came in more out of shape then ever.
I just cant see Johansson turning around from his third fight with Patterson were he did put on a good show against the champion of the world and lose to a 19 year old with 4 pro fights under his belt just because Ali was faster, I just think you are selling Johansson way too short no disrespect to Ali at all but there is a limit.

[klompton]

you might be right. im not denying it. but i dont think knocking down patterson is any indication of johanssens prowess. pete rademacher did it with zero pro bouts. patterson also later said, as did the press, that he wasnt at his best for johannsen 3 either hence the back and forth nature. im not saying ali was that good at the time, im saying johannsen wasnt. in my opinion he was never anything special at his best and he wasnt at his best here. his right hand might have been the best ever but he wasnt.