Cassius Clay vs. Ingemar Johansson

[Vladimir5555]

I'd take Ali.

[gilgamesh]

I'd take Clay because I think his speed and movement would be good enough to evade most of Ingo's big right hands. I don't doubt that Ingo would land his share and shake up Clay a few times, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if he dropped him either. Lesser punchers than him did it to a young Clay, but I think Clay's overall boxing skill and far superior speed and athleticism would allow him to scrape home a decision.

[Bobbyptsd]

I'd take Ali.

In 1961...............Ali didn't exist...........

Give a compelling reason why.....

Of course he did, what kind of pedantry is that?

We don't look up Emmanuel Augustus' record every time we discuss him to see if he was, in fact, Burton or Augustus at the time.

[Thunder and Lightning]

I dont see Ali making it through this fight, prime vs prime Ali deffinetly wins but this is a young olympic champion with less then 5 profights none of wich being 10 rounders against a former world champion in his prime and as long as Ingemar takes the fight seriously he wins.
Ali is in my opinion the greatest heavyweight of alltime but he wasn't at this time, Ingemar would be fast on his feet jabbing and trying to get close enough for the right eventually catching up with the retreating Ali maybe in the 5th or 6th round dropping him a couple of times before the ref steps in.

However Johansson didn't like Ali and could possibly take him to lightly and then it would be a very different fight, still think Ingo would take a descision though, just not enough experince for a young Ali to beat Ingemar.

[Bobbyptsd]

Bobbytsd,

If I said Cassius X, would you know who I was talking about in 1961.

Many people have multiple names, and will acknowledge people using a multiple choice
name without being offended.

He doesn't have multiple names though. He had a name and then changed it, his name is Muhammad Ali now, and we all know who that is. We all know it's the same man who used to be named Cassius Clay.

If your name is Jim and you change it to Max, I'm not going to look at a calendar anytime I want to refer to you to see "who" you were at the time. I'd know your name is now Max, so that's what I'd call you. I wouldn't say: "Well, people wouldn't know who I was talking about in 2009." That's a ridiculous line of reasoning, unless you have a time machine. It's 2013, everyone knows Jim is Max now.

Calling him Clay seems weird to me, but obviously people are going to call him what they want. I just wanted to point out the absurdity of saying Ali didn't "exist" in 1961. Of course he did.

[Bobbyptsd]

Muhammad Ali did not exist in 1961.

Cassius Clay had no idea of who or what a Muhammad Ali was in 1961.

No disrespect, just my opinion.

Of course he existed, unless you are suggesting he was disintegrated and a new person emerged as Ali. Whether or not he knew what his name was going to be later(which you don't know, of course) is irrelevant anyway.

Muhammad Ali is the same man as Cassius Clay, as we all know. Saying Ali didn't exist before 1961 is like saying Muhammad Ali was born in 1961.

Again, we don't go and look at Emmanuel Augustus' record when he's mentioned to see if he was Burton or Augustus, it's the same man.

This is getting ridiculous. If you want to call him Clay for the sake of going out of the way to disrespect him, whatever floats your boat. As far as I know, he wants to be called Ali, so that's been his name since.

Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali are the same man. Saying he didn't exist before 1961 is like saying Cassius Clay didn't exist after. But you wouldn't say that of course because it's absurd. It's the same man with a different name.

I only got involved in this, because klompton was being pedantic about it with vladimir anyway. I've made my point.

[Vladimir5555]

I'd take Ali.

In 1961...............Ali didn't exist...........

Give a compelling reason why.....

He is stronger,faster.

[evrenb]

I think it would have been a competitive match..ali winning closely on points..he had only just turned 19...
How would the 19 year old ingemar done against a one year from prime ali??

[klompton]

Its funny that Il Duce wants to denigrate Ali as much as possible but then gives him the backhanded compliment of saying hes so good that he is worth being mentioned in a mythical matchup at 19 against the recently deposed HW champion. The fact that so many here arent completely dismissive of it illustrates just how good Ali was.

How would Thad Spencer have done at 19 against Ingo? TIIIIIMMBEEEERRRRRRRR! After all, Thad was Eddie Machen's sparring partner and who he admired and patterned himself after and look what Ingo did to Eddie. Oh wait, that didnt happen in the USA so it doesnt count...

As for the matchup: On the hand you have to say that Ingo was a hell of a puncher. He might have had one of the best right hands in history. BUT, Ali wasnt really a sucker for a right hand. He had problems with hookers (the punches, not the women). Ingo's entire gameplan was devised around landing that right hand. He was pretty much a one trick pony. So if Ali could take that away from him I could actually see him winning the upset.

[HomicideHenry]

The Ali die hards are wearing rose colored glasses again. Apparently Ali immediately from the start was so gifted he could have won the heavyweight title in his pro debut, according to their thinking. Ali was only 4-0-0 at the time. There is no way, in a ten round fight, does he last against Johansson.

[klompton]

Im not an Ali die hard. Im just someone who sees things as they are. In 1961 Ingo was damaged goods and even at his best he was ordinary when you took away his right hand. If Ali could do this, which isnt out of the realm of possibility because yes, I grudgingly admit as a Frazier fan that he was special.

The initial post didnt specify when in 1961. If you are saying February when they sparred then lets get a couple facts straight. First everybody agreed that Ali made Johannson look ordinary. If you dont believe look it up, the papers were there and covered it. Ingemar was impressed with Ali and Ali stated exactly what I did, if you could stay away from his right he was nothing. Nothing I have seen mentioned anything about him being gassed and the film doesnt show it either. In fact it shows Ali as much MUCH faster, and repeatedly making Johannson miss and pay. By October 1961 Ali's people had offered Johannson 100,000 to face Ali and Johannson declined. First he stated he hadnt heard of the offer then he stated he was only interested in Liston. By February Ali was already trained for 8 rounders so its not a stretch that he could have gone a two extra rounds with a limited guy like Johannson. By October when the fight was being floated he had already been ten rounds and did so easily. Its silly to suggest he somehow had stamina problems at this point. Finally to call him only a skinny 190 pounder is pretty weak. The guy was weighed 190, 195, 192, 194 and stood 6' 2" at least. Which means he would have had height, reach, and speed advantages and would have weighed the same as Ingemar. You make it sound like he weighed 160 or something.

[HomicideHenry]

Sparring and fighting are two different things.

Greg Page dropped Tyson, that doesnt mean he could have actually beaten Tyson.

Shit Shaq looked awesome against Oliver McCall in sparring, but that dont mean anything either.

[klompton]

Awwww, another staged event just for the benefit of building the myth of Ali...

[Thunder and Lightning]

Im not an Ali die hard. Im just someone who sees things as they are. In 1961 Ingo was damaged goods and even at his best he was ordinary when you took away his right hand. If Ali could do this, which isnt out of the realm of possibility because yes, I grudgingly admit as a Frazier fan that he was special.

The initial post didnt specify when in 1961. If you are saying February when they sparred then lets get a couple facts straight. First everybody agreed that Ali made Johannson look ordinary. If you dont believe look it up, the papers were there and covered it. Ingemar was impressed with Ali and Ali stated exactly what I did, if you could stay away from his right he was nothing. Nothing I have seen mentioned anything about him being gassed and the film doesnt show it either. In fact it shows Ali as much MUCH faster, and repeatedly making Johannson miss and pay. By October 1961 Ali's people had offered Johannson 100,000 to face Ali and Johannson declined. First he stated he hadnt heard of the offer then he stated he was only interested in Liston. By February Ali was already trained for 8 rounders so its not a stretch that he could have gone a two extra rounds with a limited guy like Johannson. By October when the fight was being floated he had already been ten rounds and did so easily. Its silly to suggest he somehow had stamina problems at this point. Finally to call him only a skinny 190 pounder is pretty weak. The guy was weighed 190, 195, 192, 194 and stood 6' 2" at least. Which means he would have had height, reach, and speed advantages and would have weighed the same as Ingemar. You make it sound like he weighed 160 or something.

Klompton in other threads I have agreed with almost everything youve said but here i think you are very wrong.

Ingemar Johansson wasn't realy a one trick pony sure the big right was his best wepon and the left wasnt good at all but Ingo used it to the best of his ability probing with it looking for openings and he also had imo very underated speed and quick reflexes, pretty fast hands too.
Eddie Machen and Floyd Patterson aperently had problem taking away his right hand and they where alot more experinsed and probably better fighters than young Ali too, also Johansson wasn't impressed by Ali in their sparring he realy disliked him and said he was a horrible sparringpartner from everything i've heard but like previous posters said sparring and fighting are very diffrent things.

Like I said i think Ali is the best of alltime but pitting a 19year old kid (even if it is the greatest) against a just unseated champion isn't fair, he hadn't faced anyone even close to that level and asuming he would win is realy saying more about what you think about Johansson than about Ali.

[klompton]

That's true. Outside of his right hand I don't think much of Johannson. I think he was extremely ordinary and predictable. I think Patterson and Machen basically didn't know what to expect against him. Its doubtful either had seen him fight. In addition to that I think the bloom was off the rose after his loss to Patterson. I think his confidence wasn't the same, he was never one to put everything into his training and that got worse even after he won the title. I don't think its out of the question to suggest a young, fast, and skilled guy like Ali could upset Johannson in 10 rounds. I think you basically have to say that Johannson would have to knock Ali out. I don't see him winning on points. So if you believe that, as I do, its not a stretch to think that someone of Ali's ability, even then, could stay away from the one dimensional, standup European fighter and win a decision.

[Giancarlo]

To think that some people are so blind

You mean the guy who 'read' that article on the Ali - London fight and came away thinking Harold Macmillan was a sports journo?

That guy is as thick as pig sh1t.

That is the guy you are talking about, right?

[Thunder and Lightning]

That's true. Outside of his right hand I don't think much of Johannson. I think he was extremely ordinary and predictable. I think Patterson and Machen basically didn't know what to expect against him. Its doubtful either had seen him fight. In addition to that I think the bloom was off the rose after his loss to Patterson. I think his confidence wasn't the same, he was never one to put everything into his training and that got worse even after he won the title. I don't think its out of the question to suggest a young, fast, and skilled guy like Ali could upset Johannson in 10 rounds. I think you basically have to say that Johannson would have to knock Ali out. I don't see him winning on points. So if you believe that, as I do, its not a stretch to think that someone of Ali's ability, even then, could stay away from the one dimensional, standup European fighter and win a decision.

The third fight between Patterson and Johansson begs to differ though it was a competetive fight and Johansson dropped Patterson twice and had him hurt despite the fact that he came in more out of shape then ever.
I just cant see Johansson turning around from his third fight with Patterson were he did put on a good show against the champion of the world and lose to a 19 year old with 4 pro fights under his belt just because Ali was faster, I just think you are selling Johansson way too short no disrespect to Ali at all but there is a limit.

[klompton]

you might be right. im not denying it. but i dont think knocking down patterson is any indication of johanssens prowess. pete rademacher did it with zero pro bouts. patterson also later said, as did the press, that he wasnt at his best for johannsen 3 either hence the back and forth nature. im not saying ali was that good at the time, im saying johannsen wasnt. in my opinion he was never anything special at his best and he wasnt at his best here. his right hand might have been the best ever but he wasnt.