Prime Joe Louis vs. a prime Muhammad Ali?

[elmersalsa]

I also pick The Greatest to beat The Brown Bomber. Ali in his prime was too fast.

[Kalan]

I'm going to hedge my bets on this one. I am 54 and have been a boxing fan since my teens. For most of that time I would have predicted that Ali would have beaten Louis hands down by either a unanimous decision or a late round knock out. However, I have since changed my mind. The reason is simple: Youtube.

I was raised on Ali and watched most of his fights on free TV in the 70's. However, I just recently took a good, long look at a 30's era Joe Louis. Louis was a precise, methodical, and paralyzing puncher in his prime. The early Cassius Clay was great. No question about that, but I now see a lot of wasted motion in what he did.

I believe a young Joe Louis knocks out a young Cassius Clay with a precise right hand in the early rounds. Think Henry Cooper except with more time left in the round and a hell of a lot more power.

Post 1970 I would pick Ali to beat Louis by decision or a late knockout. The older, more filled out Ali was a true man. The man of Zaire and Manila was damn near unbeatable for any heavyweight in history including Joe Louis.

But extremely beatable for the Chinny-Chin-Chinned Ken Norton -- who shattered Ali's jaw and pasted the living crap out of the man... Also post 1970, little Joe Frazier nailed Ali's jaw with a great many quick left hooks and knocked Ali flat on his back... Ali was as easy to hit with hard left hooks as Max Baer... Louis knocked Baer down with a quick, shifty, and hard left hook that was more deceptive than anything Frazier threw.. Before Baer hit the canvas Louis tagged him with 2 more precision left hooks right on the button.. Louis was the fist man to stop Baer and did it very easily.. Billy Conn was a precision boxer with a strong body attack and orthodox defensive skills -- the kind of skills Ali lacked.. Eddie Futch knew more than you about Boxing. His man was Louis in this match-up.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

I'm going to hedge my bets on this one. I am 54 and have been a boxing fan since my teens. For most of that time I would have predicted that Ali would have beaten Louis hands down by either a unanimous decision or a late round knock out. However, I have since changed my mind. The reason is simple: Youtube.

I was raised on Ali and watched most of his fights on free TV in the 70's. However, I just recently took a good, long look at a 30's era Joe Louis. Louis was a precise, methodical, and paralyzing puncher in his prime. The early Cassius Clay was great. No question about that, but I now see a lot of wasted motion in what he did.

I believe a young Joe Louis knocks out a young Cassius Clay with a precise right hand in the early rounds. Think Henry Cooper except with more time left in the round and a hell of a lot more power.

Post 1970 I would pick Ali to beat Louis by decision or a late knockout. The older, more filled out Ali was a true man. The man of Zaire and Manila was damn near unbeatable for any heavyweight in history including Joe Louis.

But extremely beatable for the Chinny-Chin-Chinned Ken Norton -- who shattered Ali's jaw and pasted the living crap out of the man... Also post 1970, little Joe Frazier nailed Ali's jaw with a great many quick left hooks and knocked Ali flat on his back... Ali was as easy to hit with hard left hooks as Max Baer... Louis knocked Baer down with a quick, shifty, and hard left hook that was more deceptive than anything Frazier threw.. Before Baer hit the canvas Louis tagged him with 2 more precision left hooks right on the button.. Louis was the fist man to stop Baer and did it very easily.. Billy Conn was a precision boxer with a strong body attack and orthodox defensive skills -- the kind of skills Ali lacked.. Eddie Futch knew more than you about Boxing. His man was Louis in this match-up.

Put a sock in it WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRIME YOU ALWAYS DO THIS AYE Kalan ITS PRIME V PRIME NOTHING ELSE

[Kalan]

I'm going to hedge my bets on this one. I am 54 and have been a boxing fan since my teens. For most of that time I would have predicted that Ali would have beaten Louis hands down by either a unanimous decision or a late round knock out. However, I have since changed my mind. The reason is simple: Youtube.

I was raised on Ali and watched most of his fights on free TV in the 70's. However, I just recently took a good, long look at a 30's era Joe Louis. Louis was a precise, methodical, and paralyzing puncher in his prime. The early Cassius Clay was great. No question about that, but I now see a lot of wasted motion in what he did.

I believe a young Joe Louis knocks out a young Cassius Clay with a precise right hand in the early rounds. Think Henry Cooper except with more time left in the round and a hell of a lot more power.

Post 1970 I would pick Ali to beat Louis by decision or a late knockout. The older, more filled out Ali was a true man. The man of Zaire and Manila was damn near unbeatable for any heavyweight in history including Joe Louis.

But extremely beatable for the Chinny-Chin-Chinned Ken Norton -- who shattered Ali's jaw and pasted the living crap out of the man... Also post 1970, little Joe Frazier nailed Ali's jaw with a great many quick left hooks and knocked Ali flat on his back... Ali was as easy to hit with hard left hooks as Max Baer... Louis knocked Baer down with a quick, shifty, and hard left hook that was more deceptive than anything Frazier threw.. Before Baer hit the canvas Louis tagged him with 2 more precision left hooks right on the button.. Louis was the fist man to stop Baer and did it very easily.. Billy Conn was a precision boxer with a strong body attack and orthodox defensive skills -- the kind of skills Ali lacked.. Eddie Futch knew more than you about Boxing. His man was Louis in this match-up.

Put a sock in it WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRIME YOU ALWAYS DO THIS AYE Kalan ITS PRIME V PRIME NOTHING ELSE

The poster who I replied to said only the post 1970 more mature Ali would beat Louis.. My post was directed at him.. READ man, READ!!!

And 29 years old is prime man... Ali always got nailed with a flood of left hooks by anyone half skilled with that shot.

Such as Joe Louis who had a great left hook... Watch the Max Baer fight.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

But extremely beatable for the Chinny-Chin-Chinned Ken Norton -- who shattered Ali's jaw and pasted the living crap out of the man... Also post 1970, little Joe Frazier nailed Ali's jaw with a great many quick left hooks and knocked Ali flat on his back... Ali was as easy to hit with hard left hooks as Max Baer... Louis knocked Baer down with a quick, shifty, and hard left hook that was more deceptive than anything Frazier threw.. Before Baer hit the canvas Louis tagged him with 2 more precision left hooks right on the button.. Louis was the fist man to stop Baer and did it very easily.. Billy Conn was a precision boxer with a strong body attack and orthodox defensive skills -- the kind of skills Ali lacked.. Eddie Futch knew more than you about Boxing. His man was Louis in this match-up.

Put a sock in it WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRIME YOU ALWAYS DO THIS AYE Kalan ITS PRIME V PRIME NOTHING ELSE

The poster who I replied to said only the post 1970 more mature Ali would beat Louis.. My post was directed at him.. READ man, READ!!!

And 29 years old is prime man... Ali always got nailed with a flood of left hooks by anyone half skilled with that shot.

Such as Joe Louis who had a great left hook... Watch the Max Baer fight.

Ali prime was his first reign 9 defence's no one could touch him so Kalan make sure that's the one you comparing the greatest same with Sugar Ray Robinson and all the other legend's you bag its prime time baby never ko'd in his life Frazier got the best left hook couldn't stop the greatest.

[SteveO]

In my opinion 1967 Ali outpoints Louis 15 rounds to 0.

[Kalan]

Ali prime was his first reign 9 defence's no one could touch him so Kalan make sure that's the one you comparing the greatest same with Sugar Ray Robinson and all the other legend's you bag its prime time baby never ko'd in his life Frazier got the best left hook couldn't stop the greatest.

Hmmm... if “nobody could touch Ali” then it's incredible how many times Ali was punched by the slow, clumsy, inept, 194-pound Karl Mildenberger – who everyone thought he'd get rid of in 2 rounds. Funny how Dick Richardson – who didn't have the best right hand, and who Johansson made into a caricature of an iced fighter with one thunderous right – put Mildenberger out for a count of a thousand in the 1st round with one screaming right. Another short, little, inept punching bag named Oscar Bonavena knocked Mildenberger down 4 times and kicked his can by a million miles.

Another guy who punched Ali a lot was the 2nd rate, 185-pound Henry Cooper. If he weren’t the most notorious bleeder of all time with tissue paper skin, Cooper would have made a fight of it, because his left was finding Ali with regularity. Cooper was knocked out so easily by Patterson, Johansson, and Folley it was ridiculous. Ali couldn’t put him down.

As for the short little punching bag Frazier – who couldn’t get his left hook on the extremely punchable, but bigger, taller, and more powerful George Foreman (6’3” X 217) – the short little dude hit a fairly youthful Ali with a stream of left hooks that Ali couldn’t avoid... So when you talk about somebody with a stellar defense---cuz the untouchable boxer hasn’t arrived yet---talk about Mayweather, Sal Sanchez, Gene Tunney, or Willie Pep in his first 110 fights before he was nearly killed in a plane crash. Jack Johnson was also extremely difficult to hit at his best, .

Other than those 5 everybody has holes in their defense. You could drive a truck through Ali’s defense. Anthony Joshua—even with his extremely limited experience—already slips and ducks punches with greater technical sharpness than Ali had.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ali prime was his first reign 9 defence's no one could touch him so Kalan make sure that's the one you comparing the greatest same with Sugar Ray Robinson and all the other legend's you bag its prime time baby never ko'd in his life Frazier got the best left hook couldn't stop the greatest.

Hmmm... if “nobody could touch Ali” then it's incredible how many times Ali was punched by the slow, clumsy, inept, 194-pound Karl Mildenberger – who everyone thought he'd get rid of in 2 rounds. Funny how Dick Richardson – who didn't have the best right hand, and who Johansson made into a caricature of an iced fighter with one thunderous right – put Mildenberger out for a count of a thousand in the 1st round with one screaming right. Another short, little, inept punching bag named Oscar Bonavena knocked Mildenberger down 4 times and kicked his can by a million miles.

Another guy who punched Ali a lot was the 2nd rate, 185-pound Henry Cooper. If he weren’t the most notorious bleeder of all time with tissue paper skin, Cooper would have made a fight of it, because his left was finding Ali with regularity. Cooper was knocked out so easily by Patterson, Johansson, and Folley it was ridiculous. Ali couldn’t put him down.

As for the short little punching bag Frazier – who couldn’t get his left hook on the extremely punchable, but bigger, taller, and more powerful George Foreman (6’3” X 217) – the short little dude hit a fairly youthful Ali with a stream of left hooks that Ali couldn’t avoid... So when you talk about somebody with a stellar defense---cuz the untouchable boxer hasn’t arrived yet---talk about Mayweather, Sal Sanchez, Gene Tunney, or Willie Pep in his first 110 fights before he was nearly killed in a plane crash. Jack Johnson was also extremely difficult to hit at his best, .

Other than those 5 everybody has holes in their defense. You could drive a truck through Ali’s defense. Anthony Joshua—even with his extremely limited experience—already slips and ducks punches with greater technical sharpness than Ali had.

[Kalan]

Right... You're the guy who said

never ko'd in his life Frazier

He makes 2 appearances on Foreman's KO record.

But I guess you didn't see the Foreman-Frazier "Fights" ... More like muggings.. They stopped them early to save Frazier's life.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Right... You're the guy who said

never ko'd in his life Frazier

He makes 2 appearances on Foreman's KO record.

But I guess you didn't see the Foreman-Frazier "Fights" ... More like muggings.. They stopped them early to save Frazier's life.

TWO TONNE TONY BAHAHAHAHA AND HOW MANY BUM'' OF THE MONTH WERE THERE

[Kalan]

How about Alfredo Evangelista and Jean Pierre Coopman???? ... Galento was bad -- but EGAD!!!

Louis fought more guys than Two Ton Tony... He also flattened Baer, Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Nova, Carnera, and Sharkey.

Louis tailed off early like Tyson, because of his lifestyle.. But in his early 20's he was something else.. He was spectacular versus Max Baer. Ali couldn't hit.

[Controversial]

But extremely beatable for the Chinny-Chin-Chinned Ken Norton -- who shattered Ali's jaw

Kalan why do you always make a fuss about his jaw being broken? Its actually not that hard to break someones jaw if you catch them right, several fighters over the years have had it happen. Whats more impressive is he fought most of the fight with a broken jaw.

I recall many years ago Lloyd Honeyghan pulled out of a fight after his young daughter accidentally head-butted him and broke his nose, it happens.

[Tony1244]

Ali by UD unless Louis really pushed the action, then Ali late round TKO.

Ali may get buckled once or twice before then, but he'd bike out of the way.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Too ba d we never really got to see The Prime Ali

Louis also lost a significant amount of time. One could say it would have been his prime as well.

- Amen to that, about the same length of time as Ali and and in more danger as Joe was flying in some of the worst combat zones in history for air travel.

I always hear lots of "I think" refrains on these forum, when in fact very little thinking actually goes into 99% of the responses. I've always favored Joe stylistically because of Ali's general emotional hysteria and wasted monkey motion in the ring whereas Joe one of the most relaxed and energy efficient sluggers in history with the more effective footwork that served to keep him pressuring constantly.

What are the career records of Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali?

Joe 66-3, 52 KO vs Ali 56-5, 37 KO

OK, clearly Joe is vastly superior, but there are records and then there are RECORDS, so let’s delve deeper.

ProDebut:

Joe, age 20 yrs, 1 month, 22 days, coming off winning the United States National AAU tournament with a final record of 50-4, 43 KO, debuted @ 181 lbs against Jack Kracken, 27-7-3, in the “city of the big shoulders,” Chicago, July 4th, 1934, US Independence Day. Drops Kracken in the opening seconds and then blasts him through the ropes into the lap of the shocked Illinois commish to formally announce to the world the transformation from Joe Barrow to Joe Louis. Has there ever been a better boxing debut than that? Prior he was no more than a po’ sharecropper’s boy from Podunk, Alabama moved up north. The $59 depression purse went a long ways in those days, the most money he had ever earned in his life.

Ali, age 18 yrs, 9 months and 12 days, coming off Olympic Lightheavy Gold glory with a multitude of final ama record claims, debuts @ 192 lbs, October 29th, 1960, in his hometown of Louisville, Kentucky against Tunney Hunsaker, 16-9-1, a Sunday School teacher and police chief of Fayetteville, West Virginia. Ali touched up Hunsaker some with a bloody nose and cut eye for a 6 round unanimous decision and a healthy $2000 purse for the day. Solid hometown pro debut for such a young kid, but no comparison to the spectacular 4th of July fireworks set off by Joe.

Longest Title reign and record:

Joe 11 years, 252 days, 26-0, 23 KOs vs Ali three combined title runs of 3 years, 63 days + 3 years, 108 days + 284 days = 7 years, 90 days, 22-2. OK, but Joe had two more title fights, 1 competitive decision loss to Charles in his comeback where Joe was still the Lineal champ and could have his title reign extended thusly and a knockout of Lee Savold who held the BBBC version of the split title + the last white heavy belt for a final title record of 27-1 vs Ali’s humiliation KO loss to Holmes for a final title record of 22-3. Ali was also the Lineal champ the way that segment of boxing loony tunes think, so his title reign could be added to.

Now, if we extend out the Ali years up to the first Frazier fight, they’d be just short of Joe, but, remember, Ali also relinquished his Ring belt early so his good buddy Jimmy Ellis could fight for it. Ring never awarded the belt to Ellis yet kept Ali as Champion through 1969. Joe is still superior as he lost just as much prime time as Ali.

First and last Ring Top 10 ratings:

Joe #1 in his first year of eligibility, age 20 vs Ali #9 in his first year of eligibility, age 19.

Joe #5 when he challenged Champion Charles in 1950, age 36, and #6 against #2 Marciano in 1951, age 37. Ali was last ranked as Champion in 1978, age 36.

Joe clearly superior though Ali managed to slide into Ring ratings a year earlier than Joe because of his earlier debut.

HOF fights:

Joe 13 such fights, 10-3 9 KO vs Ali 14 such fights, 11-3, 8 KO. Joe with 2 KO losses vs Ali with 1 KO loss.

Joe earliest HOFer and win @ age 21 yr, 4 month, 11 days over Baer vs Ali earliest HOFer and win @ age 20 yr, 9 months, 28 days over Moore.

Joe last HOF win @ age 37 yr, 3 month and a day over Blivins vs Ali last HOF win @ age 34 yr, 8 months, 11 days over Ken Norton, a hotly disputed decision.

Ali with tiny edge in total HOF fight, Joe with KOs, and Ali with one less KO loss. Joe a few months older for first HOF fight vs Ali a bit younger, but Joe considerably older for last HOF win than Ali. They both lost their last HOF fights by KO, but Joe was in his 8th fight over 10 rigorous months in his 37th year to give Marciano all he could handle for 8 rounds vs Ali out of retirement carried mercifully by Holmes trying to get the fight stopped with no damage to Ali. Joe definitely finished the stronger fighter overall.

Controversial fights:

Joe only had two, the first Buddy Baer and JJWalcott fights which he quickly avenged with savage KOs in the rematches vs far too many controversial fights for Ali, really too embarrassing to mention that he always benefited from every controversy. Big advantage Joe who consistently took care of business in a more professional way than did Ali who needed a lot of help from the suits.

Unified America behind him:

Joe

Split up America over him:

Ali

Won a Supreme Court Decision:

Ali, of course, major props and maybe the highlight of his life.

Summoned to the White House by the President for consultation on impending military desegregation policy:

Joe, the one and only.

Inspiration for the two most prominent black civil rights spokesmen in history:

Both Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela count Joe Louis as providing the inspiration for a higher dignity and purpose of what their people people might achieve if allowed their civil rights.

Who loses to Leon?

Ali, of course. Joe on his worst day in shackles could never lose to Leon.

Now, lest this take on a wholly one sided analysis, in general most fans would agree that Joe Frazier and George Foreman are better than the best Joe took on, but Ali never really showed he was better than Frazier. Most can finally admit Frazier whooped the holy jinn out of him the first fight, and did it in spite of referee Mercante near poking out his only good eye midway through the fight. The second fight was competitive and close, and the third a happenstance of incredible good fortune when Frazier’s scout couldn’t make it from Ali’s corner to Frazier’s corner to tell them Ali was quitting. Joe was on his feet bouncing around like a rubber ball waiting to be unleashed when Eddie Futch pulled the plug just before Ali stood up and collapsed. Nor could the terribly grievous conditions in Zaire that all favored Ali ever be replicated, thus no rematch with George who only spent 9 seconds on the canvas in his first career knockdown, yet was counted out. Compare to Ali who collapsed seconds later for a 30 count that took his legions to elevate him over to his corner.

Yeah, and maybe Sonny Liston was better than Joe’s best too, but Joe could easily beat a fighter who quit on his stool and take a dive as well as the next guy, so let’s keep it real…over and out.

[BoxBuzz]

BB did you imagine that that was a "clinical analysis" or a document produced by Joe's promotional company?

Not even saying it comes to the wrong conclusion....just that it is clearly produced with an agenda.....

The opposing camp could surely do just as totally subjective a "work" as that piece you just shared.

[Kalan]

Maybe you didn't see Ali's fight with a pudgy 188-pounder Doug Jones, a guy who fought most of his career as a Light Heavyweight and lost badly to Harold Johnson a few fights earlier. Ali had height, weight, reach, and strength on Jones but Jones won 6-4 on my card. Jones nailed Ali big time because of all the amateurish mistakes he made -- but simply lacked the natural Heavyweight power to flatten him.

It was a close, controversial decision that the crowd booed -- and Ali's only fight between Jones and upsetting an aging and injured Sonny Liston was the first Cooper fight. They used smelling salts to help bring Ali around for that one when he was decked hard with 2 or 3 seconds left in round 4.

Looking over Ali's list of opponents, there's nobody but Holmes who was as good a boxer as Louis. Holmes would have done better v Louis than Ali because of his more disciplined and technical style. Ali had some of the same defensive deficiencies as the 6'6" X 275 Primo Carnera -- who easily beat 186-pound master boxer Tommy Loughran, who simply lacked the size and strength of a true Heavyweight.

As a 21-year-old Louis was 200-pounds of tightly boxed dynamite -- one of the most compact Heavyweights of all time. Against Baer and Carnera he was a killing machine. He was perfectly matched with Jack Blackburn, one of the most brilliant coaches in the annals of Boxing. Blackburn turned Louis from crude swinger into awesome destroyer in a year -- by focusing on Boxing 24/7. Their first year was too intense for the youngster. Because when Louis got rich and was let out of the box he discovered women and night life. Like a young Mike Tyson there was no putting the Genie back in the bottle.

[Vincent stevenson]

Louis by ko to me. Too powerful. I think he would time counter ali with his left hook and ali always struggled defending that shot

[Seamus]

Picture the 1st Louis-Conn fight, then imagine if Conn was much stronger, durable, and a bigger puncher.

[Vincent stevenson]

Picture the 1st Louis-Conn fight, then imagine if Conn was much stronger, durable, and a bigger puncher.

Ooohhhh thats a good point mate. But joe was a wee bit past his prime when he fought conn.
Its made me think again though

[Seamus]

Watch a prime Joe Louis against Fat Tony Galento. Sure Louis wins by Kayo, but the short fat guy can't miss Louis with the left hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVcgD7VlmT8

[Vincent stevenson]

Watch a prime Joe Louis against Fat Tony Galento. Sure Louis wins by Kayo, but the short fat guy can't miss Louis with the left hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVcgD7VlmT8

What is your point mate ?
Ali couldnt left hook for shit

[Seamus]

The very solid chinned Oscar Bonavena was done in by an Ali left hook. More often though he used it in fast combinations with the right. Hard to tell sometimes which did more damage.

[Vincent stevenson]

The very solid chinned oscar ??? Come onnnnn.
Oscar was a high level journeyman at best. Plrase dont tell me you think ali,s left hook was one of his primary weapons???? It wasnt. And you must know know that

[Kalan]

Nobody was easier to hit than Bonavena... who was extremely damaged by that point, by 25 rounds of pounding from Joe Frazier.. Jimmy Ellis fought most of his career fights as a Middleweight and floored Bonavena twice.. Even extremely light hitting baseball players might hit 2 or 3 homeruns a year.. Everyone knows that when you hit the sweet-spot that ball carries a lot further.. There's a sweet spot on your chin as well, and if anybody is lucky enough to nail it, you're gone.. Ali actually hit Bonavena with a light left hook that landed with career perfect impact.

Ali had no idea he landed a good punch. He tried to grab Bonavena immediately after landing it -- but Ali grabbed air because Bonavena fell.. Then Ali refused to go to a neutral corner (and the referee ignored the infraction) and finished Bonavena off with 2 more knockdowns before the 12th and final round ended.

[Seamus]

Bonavena was stopped once in 68 fights and it was by Ali. Before his fight with Ali, starting after the title fight with Frazier, he had 8 wins (all by stoppage) one loss (by DQ) and a draw.