Your Explanation Of What Happened ? : Clay Vs Liston II

[BoxBuzz]

just a gentle reminder...... you always need to be cautious and balance your over exuberance....lest you besmirch Ali to the point that Frazier loses his shine.

and I'm not talkin' bout the shine he brought into the second Foreman fight.

[yancey]

just a gentle reminder...... you always need to be cautious and balance your over exuberance....lest you besmirch Ali to the point that Frazier loses his shine.

and I'm not talkin' bout the shine he brought into the second Foreman fight.

I call them as I see them.

This has not one thing to do with some imagined agenda on behalf of Frazier.

The Lewiston fight was clearly a dive.

And I saw that Ali-Folley fight live 48 years ago. If memory serves, that finishing right was a slightly descending, solid punch that landed square. In fact, I believe Ali knocked down Folley with a similar punch pretty early on, second round or thereabouts. Going by memory here, but my memory is pretty damn good.

The Lewiston punch, as I recall, was a little more of an up to down, chopping type of punch that had some glancing aspect. I can accept that it might have been a flash knockdown, aided by Sonny leaning forward and being off-balance, but even that is a bit stretchy.

But keep on keeping on. I know none of this will stop you.

[BoxBuzz]

Stop me? Got some of that uptown judgement for yourself there skippy?

How honest forensics escape you, is anyone's guess.

Though I feel there has been genuine progress made over the years, on the things that can be known.

As for the things that can not be known, like what the hell was Sonny thinking....well, I still don't know......I always start out any investigation with sorting out, knowing what I don't know. And knowing what can likely never be known.

Always in good fun.

[yancey]

Anyone notice how Sonny expertly braced his fall to the canvas in Lewiston?

Does a discombobulated, neuro-agitated ( ) individual use both gloves in the fall and roll over and then repose with such grace?

Nah, I didn't think so.

[BoxBuzz]

Well, you have a theory...........and you want the empirical evidence to fulfill your assumptions.


However you should have NO theory, and simply follow the information where ever it leads.


This is the best way. You are not following the best way.


You have gone your own way.


And it's leading you


down a blind

alley

.

[Seamus]

The punch definitely landed, and snapped Liston's head back, but it was little more than a jab. The great irony with both Clay vs Liston bouts is that their controversial endings have provided just enough doubt in the minds of a vocal minority, to insure a steady stream of arguments that something wasen't kosher, because a man of such mythic proportions as Liston would never have quit in one fight and gone down for the count from a jab in the other. I think the reality is that had Sonny really given it his best effort on both occasions, there wouldn't be the slightest argument from anyone today. In the 1st bout, Clay would have finished Liston inside of 10, and the 2nd time around the ending would very likely have come even sooner.

[yancey]

The punch definitely landed, and snapped Liston's head back, but it was little more than a jab. The great irony with both Clay vs Liston bouts is that their controversial endings have provided just enough doubt in the minds of a vocal minority, to insure a steady stream of arguments that something wasen't kosher, because a man of such mythic proportions as Liston would never have quit in one fight and gone down for the count from a jab in the other. I think the reality is that had Sonny really given it his best effort on both occasions, there wouldn't be the slightest argument from anyone today. In the 1st bout, Clay would have finished Liston inside of 10, and the 2nd time around the ending would very likely have come even sooner.

I certainly agree that Ali wins both Liston fights.

Ali got cheated in a way, especially in the second fight. Instead of a decisive win over an opponent trying his best, the win gets tainted because of the farcical ending. Much better to win displaying all your talents in an all out affair then winning where your opponent tanks.

The Lewiston debacle had to be one of the lower points in heavyweight championship boxing history.

[SenorPipino]

What happened was that Liston was bending low and charging at Ali, and simply walked into a short right hand. Down he went and the rest is iconic heavyweight history.

Of course, I'm shocked that Yancey (Durham?) would think that it was a fix. But he understands that Ali never landed a solid punch in his career. Or if he did, it was only after opponents like Foreman and Liston were drugged preceeding the bout. Whatever.

Happy 50th anniversary to one of the most storied punches ever in boxing.

And thank you Stepin Fetchit. Without his input, it's doubtful Ali would have ever survived the Big Ugly Bear and gone on to legendary heavyweight status.

[Badhusker]

If it wasn't for the fact that the majority of fans at the time absolutely hated Clay/Ali, it wouldn't have been quite so controversial.

The punch stunned him, but the count was fucked up.

[yancey]

"I'm shocked that Yancey (Durham?) would think that it was a fix. But he understands that Ali never landed a solid punch in his career. Or if he did, it was only after opponents like Foreman and Liston were drugged preceeding the bout. Whatever." SenorPipino




I give Ali lots of credit. Always call him Ali, not Clay. Have him in the top 2 heavies of all-time, acknowledging his longevity.

Sure, there are things I found distasteful about Ali's behavior, but I'm fair to him.

Senor Pee Pee, you really are a simplistic lightweight. Worse, you clearly have a reading comprehension problem. You prove it over and over again by misrepresenting what I'm saying.

[evrenb]

Yancey and I have had our differences but I say he is fair in his opinion of a fighter that was the main rival of his favourite. . . if it wasn't for ding-a-ling Perez though Yancey

[yancey]

Yancey and I have had our differences but I say he is fair in his opinion of a fighter that was the main rival of his favourite. . . if it wasn't for ding-a-ling Perez though Yancey

Thanks, evrenb.

btw, you can check with BoxBuzz about ding-a-ling Perez. Joe was knocked out cold by that Ali right and only the fast actions of Perez saved the day.

Still, they had to give Joe about two hours rest before the fight resumed.

Or something like that.

[keithmoonhangover]

Ali landed a punch that Liston didn't see coming. He was caught cold. The ref messed up. If Liston was allowed to continued, he would have either been stopped or he'd have taken one hell of a beating. Ali had the worst possible style for him.

[elmersalsa]

How time flies. It's been 50 years today. And people still talk about it. I believe that the great Sonny Liston
was just there for a big payday. I do not think he was really ready for the fight

[yancey]

I do think had the rematch come off in November, 1964 in Boston, as it was originally scheduled, that it could have been an interesting fight.

Liston was supposedly in real good shape for the November match and was motivated.

However, Ali would have won the rematch in any event. Too young, too quick.

[Caractacus]

Liston may have been dabbling in cocaine by the time the Boston fight was cancelled and the Lewiston fight came on.
I remember reading somewhere where someone noticed some of Liston's seconds appeared to have been"zonked"
at a hotel a couple days before.

[klompton]

This is my take on Ali Liston for whatever its worth:

I think Liston took Ali somewhat lightly. I think he underestimated him to a degree. I think he thought when they actually stepped in the ring that he would blow this loudmouth punk out of the water with his first hard punch and shut him up for good. Instead he into the ring and very quickly realized he was in against a bigger guy who had faster hands and feet, who could make him miss and make him pay. Pay Sonny did. Round after round he was countered until his eye started to close and ran out of ideas. After his gimmick of trying to blind Ali failed he was out of ideas. He knew he couldnt win and he quit. Period. I dont buy the injured shoulder as far as it ending the contest. In the second fight I think Liston went in knowing what he found out the first time around. He wasnt beating Ali. He got hit by a punch alright but he was looking for a place to lay down. With that being said I dont blame the fiasco on Liston I blame it on Jersey Joe Walcott for losing control of the situation. If you watch the film (I know, a novel idea) Liston gets up before the count is completed and starts fighting. He couldnt have known Walcott was going to blow it. In his mind he was back to fighting (until he could find another soft spot to lay down from a more convincing punch). Instead Walcott blew the fight by listening to Nat Fleischer (who had no official standing at the fight) and instead stopped it. That wasnt Liston's fault. Liston may have been looking to take a dive, probably out of fear or knowing he was going to lose, but the way the fight ended wasnt his fault. I dont think the fight was fixed I just think Liston knew he couldnt win and wanted out of there before taking a prolonged, embarrassing hiding.

[Seamus]

There were also claims that Liston had looked terrible in sparring with Amos Lincoln before the 2nd fight. At the same time however, I think the Liston of the 1st fight still beats all the guys he faced previously, maybe Paterson would last a couple rounds longer, but the results would all be pretty much the same. Clay was just on another level, and he would have had too much foot, hand and head speed for Sonny on any occasion.

[yancey]

This is my take on Ali Liston for whatever its worth:

I think Liston took Ali somewhat lightly. I think he underestimated him to a degree. I think he thought when they actually stepped in the ring that he would blow this loudmouth punk out of the water with his first hard punch and shut him up for good. Instead he into the ring and very quickly realized he was in against a bigger guy who had faster hands and feet, who could make him miss and make him pay. Pay Sonny did. Round after round he was countered until his eye started to close and ran out of ideas. After his gimmick of trying to blind Ali failed he was out of ideas. He knew he couldnt win and he quit. Period. I dont buy the injured shoulder as far as it ending the contest. In the second fight I think Liston went in knowing what he found out the first time around. He wasnt beating Ali. He got hit by a punch alright but he was looking for a place to lay down. With that being said I dont blame the fiasco on Liston I blame it on Jersey Joe Walcott for losing control of the situation. If you watch the film (I know, a novel idea) Liston gets up before the count is completed and starts fighting. He couldnt have known Walcott was going to blow it. In his mind he was back to fighting (until he could find another soft spot to lay down from a more convincing punch). Instead Walcott blew the fight by listening to Nat Fleischer (who had no official standing at the fight) and instead stopped it. That wasnt Liston's fault. Liston may have been looking to take a dive, probably out of fear or knowing he was going to lose, but the way the fight ended wasnt his fault. I dont think the fight was fixed I just think Liston knew he couldnt win and wanted out of there before taking a prolonged, embarrassing hiding.

Klompton, I agree with your take with one added thought.

Since you studied the film, did you notice that Sonny got back up to one knee during the count but then collapsed again to the canvas?

What is your thought on that little move?

I've always thought Sonny at that point realized JJW was messing up the count so he (Liston) decided to spend some extra time on the canvas to make sure it was over.

[elmersalsa]

This is my take on Ali Liston for whatever its worth:

I think Liston took Ali somewhat lightly. I think he underestimated him to a degree. I think he thought when they actually stepped in the ring that he would blow this loudmouth punk out of the water with his first hard punch and shut him up for good. Instead he into the ring and very quickly realized he was in against a bigger guy who had faster hands and feet, who could make him miss and make him pay. Pay Sonny did. Round after round he was countered until his eye started to close and ran out of ideas. After his gimmick of trying to blind Ali failed he was out of ideas. He knew he couldnt win and he quit. Period. I dont buy the injured shoulder as far as it ending the contest. In the second fight I think Liston went in knowing what he found out the first time around. He wasnt beating Ali. He got hit by a punch alright but he was looking for a place to lay down. With that being said I dont blame the fiasco on Liston I blame it on Jersey Joe Walcott for losing control of the situation. If you watch the film (I know, a novel idea) Liston gets up before the count is completed and starts fighting. He couldnt have known Walcott was going to blow it. In his mind he was back to fighting (until he could find another soft spot to lay down from a more convincing punch). Instead Walcott blew the fight by listening to Nat Fleischer (who had no official standing at the fight) and instead stopped it. That wasnt Liston's fault. Liston may have been looking to take a dive, probably out of fear or knowing he was going to lose, but the way the fight ended wasnt his fault. I dont think the fight was fixed I just think Liston knew he couldnt win and wanted out of there before taking a prolonged, embarrassing hiding.

I agree with you 100%. The BULLY GOT BULLIED THE FIRST TIME AROUND. The evidence is clear that after that fight, the great Sonny Liston never ever again campaigned for another title shot as long as the great Muhammad Ali was the champion.

[L.A. kidd]

does anyone forget how mobbed up sonny liston was? I go along with yancey, the punch could not have cracked an egg,

sonny threw the fight and almost killed boxing that night. it was the most obvious tank job ive ever seen!!

don't make excuses for a bum who goes in the tank.

[Controversial]

There's no doubt a punch landed but for me Liston's reaction on the canvas just doesn't look right. He looks to me like he's pretending to be shaken and it all looks to staged. Would I be surprised if Liston threw the fight? No not really.

[Caractacus]

Liston had recently gotten hooked on heroin
(his corner men were too, or a lot of them)
between the first and second fight,
probably just after the original re-match date was post poned due to
Ali's injury.

[DrDuke]

It looked like a clean landed punch, but without much power in it. Liston's reaction to it looked like pretending to be hurt. If not the mistake of the referee, Liston could pretend more successfully and naturally. In my opinion, there's no conspirasy behind Liston's dive, he was just broken mentally after the first bout.

[elmersalsa]

It looked like everything about the great Sonny Liston's life was kind of odd and strange, but still, an interesting one.

First, there's not really an account when was he born. Some documents say that he was born in 1932. Others say that he was born maybe 5 years earlier.

Second, he was the youngest of 18 children. He wasn't loved by his father according to him because his father always was taking him as a whipping boy. So he moved to St Louis, MO.

Third, he wasn't a good student at all, and was in jail in his teenage years more often than adults being in a lifetime. He was always into trouble. He left his house early, about when he 14 was years old? That's a child! He was a man before becoming a man.

Fourth, he was sent to a reformatory school where the priests used to crack his head with anything they could find against the boy. It seems to me that luck and blessings wasn't with him at all.

Fifth, he started as a professional boxer a year after Floyd Patterson. He was 21. Patterson was 17! Liston suffered his first defeat when an unknown named Marty Marshall broke his jaw. He fought the whole fight until the finish. Liston lost by decision in 10 rounds.

Sixth, before becoming Heavyweight Champion of the World, the man already dispatched every top contender in his path. It took him a couple of years for a title try. Champion Patterson's management wanted no part of Liston. But, he was pressured by the public, the government boxing bodies and even from US President John F. Kennedy that demanded that Liston should have a title shot. The shot came, and Liston easily dispatched Patterson as we all know, in only one round. The rematch resulted the same.

Seventh, even though he was the Heavyweight Champion of the World, Liston was somewhat misunderstood and unpopular. He was judged differently than the champions before him because of mafia ties.

Eight, he lost his crown to Cassius Clay in some strange circumstances. Some say that he had dislocated shoulder. Others say that he quit because of some strange betting. He had all of excuses at the time and benefit of the doubt by many when he was considered "invincible". That he was going to reign at least 7 years. He lost in a 7-1 upset. And then came the rematch, and his legend grew more and more 60 years later by taking a dive in a lot of people's minds. Was it a dive? Was it a real punch? After that, he abruptly disappeared from the heavyweight picture and left to Europe. He won his next 14 fights against poor opposition, and suddenly, and mysteriously, loses to Leotis Martin by knockout of all things. He never tried to fight for the world title as long that Ali was champion. Very strange.

Nine, he loved children. Many children looked up to him. He was always kind to children. Something odd of a man that had mafia connections. Did he had any children? It's reported that he fathered many children outside of his marriage with wife Geraldine. But, ironically, he never had a child with her.

Ten, the way Liston died was very strange. Did he committed suicide? Was he really murdered? His birth and death were a total mystery. His physical appearance, especially his fists were not normal for a guy that was listed at 6'1". He had a long reach of 84 inches! That was longer than Ali's reach.


Charles "Sonny" Liston was somewhat one of those strange, compelling and interesting personalities that ever put on some boxing gloves for a living. The strangest heavyweight champion ever? I don't see nobody close to him! None!