Your Explanation Of What Happened ? : Clay Vs Liston II

[Seamus]

I believe the answer lies entirely in their first meeting. Clay shattered Liston's confidence so badly in that bout, that Sonny deliberately went down from a rather soft punch, in order to avoid more punishment, but then changed his mind and tried to continue.

[HomicideHenry]

Bad refereeing, and Nat Fleischer. That's what happened.

[BoxBuzz]

Sonny got surprised, then had an internal meltdown. It's all on him boys and girls. There's no scandal...other that what went through Charlies mind on that day. Which among other things was a surprisingly quick snappy punch that put him on the canvas and buzzed his equilibrium momentarily. Not enough to put out his lights. But enough to break what little spirit he had left in him.

[yancey]

I don't think Buzz agrees, but I think what had happened to Malcolm X just a few months earlier may have weighed on Sonny's mind.

There were allegedly threats to Sonny before the fight.

Not that he was likely to win anyway, mind you.

Ali was too young and quick for Sonny at that point. I think Sonny's real prime was somewhere around 1959, maybe a bit later.

[Caractacus]

Just confusion ,thats all that happened.
Sonny Liston wasnt counted out on his back.
He was on the canvas and was just waiting for the coast to be clear
so that he could stand back up without being rushed,
which he did by the way
and then only later did the ref count him out.
its all Nate Flleisher's fault.

[Seamus]

So are you guys suggesting that little anchor punch legitimately dropped Liston. If that's correct, than I don't think he was going last very long.

[BoxBuzz]

I'm turning blue on this one.

I have gone over that punch frame by frame. Seriously...I've done a forensic review.

Sonny was hit, and his body shakes from his chin, and that chain reaction of shaken body parts are consistent right down to his leg muscles, which do a little snappy twitch. This punch discombobulated Sonny. Believe what you want, but the punch put him down.
Contributing factors...Sonny was not perfectly balanced on his legs going in, and he was heading in the punches direction...kinda sorta. It all adds up...no controversy, unless you just want to rewrite, and/or deny the laws of physics.

Now....what happened after that.....god knows. Just HOW discombobulated he was is hard to know....but that sort of punch in that spot, with that sort of physics playing out also easily explains Sonny's little bout with balance that folks want to say was "acting".

No way to know for sure what was going on in his noggin. But in addition to having his bell rung, embarrassment comes to mind. And if he was in a fragile state of psyche...which many claim he was....(you name it from being scared of the mafia, to being scared of the muslims, to drinking wild turkey everynight for a week before the fight.) It all adds up to a likely internal meltdown.

Add the flipping confusion of Jersey Joe and Nat.....it's a recipe for just the sort of disaster that was seen.

The genuine punch, just happens to play out in this myriad of crap that sort of layers itself around the moment like a big fat turd sandwich.

Bon Apetit'

[Caractacus]

Check out the similaries with the punch that Ali knocked Liston down and the later knockout punch of Zora Folley.
They even re-act similarly to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ARmDc5LL7k

[Seamus]

Exactly what Angelo Dundee said Buzz. He did it frame by frame on TV, and said very emphatically that punch really did hurt Sonny.

[BoxBuzz]

Check out the similaries with the punch that Ali knocked Liston down and the later knockout punch of Zora Folley.
They even re-act similarly to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ARmDc5LL7k

I would genuinely agree. However, caractacus, I have to ask. Do you see this as another example of acting? Or are you sold on Folleys reaction as being authentic?

I happen to have personally met Zora on several occasions....and in fact he personally sold me a 1973 GMC work van from Lou Grubb Chevrolet in Phoenix.

He claims that shot came from nowhere, and he felt like he was out and woke up "inside a chinese gong" lol.

Anyway I'm personally sold on both shots as being the real deal.

[Bobbyptsd]

Why do some people have trouble believing, all these years later, that this Clay guy might have had quite fast hands and managed to land a shot that people at the time didn't see very well, not having, you know 360 degree vision with 4000 HD slow motion replays at the time?

I mean I get that people back then wondered, but today?

[BoxBuzz]

Exactly what Angelo Dundee said Buzz. He did it frame by frame on TV, and said very emphatically that punch really did hurt Sonny.

Is that "assessment" on you tube or available anywhere? Very curious to see it.

[yancey]

Exactly what Angelo Dundee said Buzz. He did it frame by frame on TV, and said very emphatically that punch really did hurt Sonny.

What would you expect Dundee to say?

[yancey]

It was a nothing punch.

Sonny was maybe off balance and fell, but if anyone thinks that was a legitimate knockout punch they are seeing things that aren't there.

My favorite moment of the whole absurdity is Sonny getting up on one knee, then "collapsing" again once he figured out JJW had not counted him out.

Imagine the embarrassment Liston must have felt laying on that canvas with Ali standing over him and running around like a jackass.

No wonder he had tears in his eyes when he met Patterson in the dressing room after the fight.

[ThatOne]

Flash knock down , part slip. He could have got up but chose not to.

I wish I could find the link but Liston himself said what happened. It's not as if he died that night.

He said he could have got up but Clay/Ali didn't go to a neutral corner. To get up you have to put one hand down on the canvas for balance. He said he was afraid Clay would hit him as he got up.

[BoxBuzz]

It was a nothing punch.

Sonny was maybe off balance and fell, but if anyone thinks that was a legitimate knockout punch they are seeing things that aren't there.

My favorite moment of the whole absurdity is Sonny getting up on one knee, then "collapsing" again once he figured out JJW had not counted him out.

Imagine the embarrassment Liston must have felt laying on that canvas with Ali standing over him and running around like a jackass.

No wonder he had tears in his eyes when he met Patterson in the dressing room after the fight.

Yeah, let's not believe what can now be clearly broken down nanosecond to nanosecond, actually seeing the punch land, and Sonny's entire body shudder in the wake of the force.

Let's just say he was off balance and fell. Perhaps the film has been Photoshopped.

In this case, we should be able to separate the facts from conjecture. The fact is there was clearly measurable collision between Ali's fist, and Sonny's noggin. This is not a guess.

Whether Sonny was affected or not affected is conjecture. Take a look at the Folley knockout. What happened in that case?

You don't need to respond.

[yancey]

It was a nothing punch.

Sonny was maybe off balance and fell, but if anyone thinks that was a legitimate knockout punch they are seeing things that aren't there.

My favorite moment of the whole absurdity is Sonny getting up on one knee, then "collapsing" again once he figured out JJW had not counted him out.

Imagine the embarrassment Liston must have felt laying on that canvas with Ali standing over him and running around like a jackass.

No wonder he had tears in his eyes when he met Patterson in the dressing room after the fight.

Yeah, let's not believe what can now be clearly broken down nanosecond to nanosecond, actually seeing the punch land, and Sonny's entire body shudder in the wake of the force.

Let's just say he was off balance and fell. Perhaps the film has been Photoshopped.

In this case, we should be able to separate the facts from conjecture. The fact is there was clearly measurable collision between Ali's fist, and Sonny's noggin. This is not a guess.

Whether Sonny was affected or not affected is conjecture. Take a look at the Folley knockout. What happened in that case?

You don't need to respond.

What were Ali's first words to his corner men after the fight?

He told them to keep their mouths shut and don't say anything.

Ali knew something false had just happened.

Too bad you don't.

btw....

You don't need to respond.

[yancey]

And before anyone misinterprets my preceding post, I am certainly NOT implying that Ali was involved with what Sonny pulled in Lewiston.

Ali probably was disgusted. He threw the punch. He knew it wasn't a KO punch.

[evrenb]

Got to side with buzz here. A terrific punch... Maybe Liston decided to stay down once he was down but it wasn't pre arranged.

[evrenb]

Got to side with buzz here. A terrific punch... Maybe Liston decided to stay down once he was down but it wasn't pre arranged.

[yancey]

Got to side with buzz here. A terrific punch... Maybe Liston decided to stay down once he was down but it wasn't pre arranged.

Were you the fellow who wrote an article in a boxing mag that summer after the fight, assessing the punch as an "advanced karate chop with torqueing action involved"?

Man, that writer must have been falling all over himself laughing when he sent in that crap to the editor.

I wish I had that old magazine.

I'll go with Jimmy Cannon who was at ringside.....

"I saw the punch. It couldn't have crushed a grape".

[BoxBuzz]

It was a nothing punch.

Sonny was maybe off balance and fell, but if anyone thinks that was a legitimate knockout punch they are seeing things that aren't there.

My favorite moment of the whole absurdity is Sonny getting up on one knee, then "collapsing" again once he figured out JJW had not counted him out.

Imagine the embarrassment Liston must have felt laying on that canvas with Ali standing over him and running around like a jackass.

No wonder he had tears in his eyes when he met Patterson in the dressing room after the fight.

Yeah, let's not believe what can now be clearly broken down nanosecond to nanosecond, actually seeing the punch land, and Sonny's entire body shudder in the wake of the force.

Let's just say he was off balance and fell. Perhaps the film has been Photoshopped.

In this case, we should be able to separate the facts from conjecture. The fact is there was clearly measurable collision between Ali's fist, and Sonny's noggin. This is not a guess.

Whether Sonny was affected or not affected is conjecture. Take a look at the Folley knockout. What happened in that case?

You don't need to respond.

What were Ali's first words to his corner men after the fight?

He told them to keep their mouths shut and don't say anything.

Ali knew something false had just happened.

Too bad you don't.

btw....

You don't need to respond.

So did Folley drink from the same well? Physics Yancey....it's what worked for Frazier in the first fight with Ali.....it's a trusted friend....don't turn your back on it.

[yancey]

Too bad Ali never unleashed that terrific "advanced karate chop with torqueing action" against Frazier in 41 rounds, Chuvalo, Cooper, and Mildenberger in '66, Terrell in '67, Norton in three fights, and others when he reached his peak in the '70s.

I guess he felt he only needed to pull it out the toolbox against Sonny.

[yancey]

Oh wait, I forgot.

Ali did use the "advanced karate chop with torqueing action" against Smokin' Joe in the second round of their second fight.

You know, where Joe was clearly comatose and only the alert actions of Tony Perez saved him and kept the fight going.

(just thought I would save you the trouble of pulling that old rabbit out the hat, Buzz)

[BoxBuzz]

Hey....you saw that punch? You mean it did happen? It DID get Joe's attention? The Ref DID make a mistake in that fight?

I used to have to choose between your account, and my own lying eyes.

I'm sensing progress.