BoxRec

Not many will agree with me on this one but personally a think Lennox Lewis beats both of them..

HomicideHenry wrote:

SteveO wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

True.... but..... lets break it down....

Quarry? The second fight took longer.

Chuvalo? The second fight was duller.

Norton? There's alot of people who feel Norton was robbed in that last fight.

Frazier? Ali took so much abuse in Manila, and though he won, he was all but done too.

Spinks? The rematch was really nothing to speak of, it was history making yes, but very dull.

With the exception of Henry Cooper, Ali never looked "better" by a wide margin in rematches.

Louis on the other hand.... knocked guys the hell out in rematches.

Yes, lets break it down.

Quarry-He won every round in the rematch. The fight took longer, but he looked better.
Chuvalo- Ali was in his prime for the first fight. Was not for the rematch. Chuvalo was closer to his prime the firs time. Of course the first fight was better.
Norton-Ali won the 2nd fight. Ali won the third.
Frazier-He won the 2nd, won the third. Third was the the greatest heavyweight fight of all time.
Spinks-Way past his best, but he looked much better in the rematch.

He did not look worse in any of the rematches with except of the 2nd Chuvalo fight.

Louis did not look better in the rematch against Conn. Conn just looked a lot worse.
Louis did not KO Cesar Brion in the rematch. Actually, he looked like crap.

Crease wrote:My friends know that I am a massive Rocky Marciano fan, and they were surprised when they asked me if I could watch any Heavyweight fight in history prime-for-prime... They assumed that I was going to say Marciano vs Ali.

But I said Marciano vs Louis - when they asked me why - I said "because Joe was better that Ali"

i have ali at par with louis, yet i think rocky has
no chance against prime ali, but a substantial
one with joe. styles make fights. he would not
find ali, but he could outlast joe. though i still
think louis would win, not easy, but still.

rocky is to me the rare case of a boxer having
a better record than he should.

ali easily

SteveO wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

On paper? Yes. But, one rematch he lost clearly in my view was with Ken Norton fight #2.

adambb22 wrote:Not many will agree with me on this one but personally a think Lennox Lewis beats both of them..

No way. Ali and Louis too much class for Lennox Lewis. I can't picture Those two losing to bums like Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman in their primes

elmersalsa wrote:

adambb22 wrote:Not many will agree with me on this one but personally a think Lennox Lewis beats both of them..

No way. Ali and Louis too much class for Lennox Lewis. I can't picture Those two losing to bums like Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman in their primes

elmersalsa

Ali vs lewis would be an interesting matchup but a this the size of lewis would be a huge problem for louis, yes lewis did lose to McCall and Rahman but he also beat them both on rematches.

adambb22 wrote:Not many will agree with me on this one but personally a think Lennox Lewis beats both of them..

I'd favour him over both of them as well but yeah, we're are going to be a very small group around these parts.

Lennox Lewis was nothing to be awed about. I don't consider him a great fighter. He was a very good heavyweight that came after the winding down careers of greats like Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson

elmersalsa wrote:

SteveO wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

On paper? Yes. But, one rematch he lost clearly in my view was with Ken Norton fight #2.

I'm in the minority but I always felt Norton won all three contests. His timing and counter punching style was far more effective than Frazier's swarming style. That's one reason why I think Louis would have been effective against Ali, because his style was much the same as Norton's.

HomicideHenry wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

SteveO wrote:
Ali won every rematch he fought.

On paper? Yes. But, one rematch he lost clearly in my view was with Ken Norton fight #2.

I'm in the minority but I always felt Norton won all three contests. His timing and counter punching style was far more effective than Frazier's swarming style. That's one reason why I think Louis would have been effective against Ali, because his style was much the same as Norton's.

I also believe that Ken Norton won the 3 fights. I am glad that I am not alone in that sentiment. I also believe that Kenny would've been a dangerous opponent to the great Muhammad Ali in The Greatest's prime. Would he beat him in his prime? A good possibility

You thought Norton won all three fights? Why have you never mentioned it before?

elmersalsa wrote:

SteveO wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

On paper? Yes. But, one rematch he lost clearly in my view was with Ken Norton fight #2.

He Clearly won the second fight. And the third could have gone either way.

The third could be considered a draw, that one man was simply awarded. And it was not awarded to Kenny.

Frazier clearly "viewed" Norton the winner by one round, in the third fight. Not sure Joe expressed an opinion on the second fight. Surely Joe would have been at least a bit bias toward his good buddy Ken?

And really these were not in Ali's prime, by this time he was not as "adaptable" though he was still very good. But his physical skillset was more limited by this time, despite his increased ring savvy. I think Ken would always be a tough fight for him, but less so a few years earlier.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
First and last Ring Top 10 ratings:

Joe #1 in his first year of eligibility, age 20 vs Ali #9 in his first year of eligibility, age 19.

Joe #1 when he challenged Champion Charles in 1950, age 36, and #6 against #2 Marciano in 1951, age 37. Ali was last ranked as Champion in 1978, age 36.

Joe clearly superior though Ali managed to slide into Ring ratings a year earlier than Joe because of his earlier debut.

Excellent breakdown overall.

Regarding the ratings, with the Ring ratings I have, Joe was #2 and Rocky was #3 in the September 1951 (ratings up to mid-July) issue of Ring. Immediately after the fight (January 1952 issue, ratings to mid-November 1951) Rocky was #2 and Joe was #4. Are you maybe using the annual rankings rather than the monthly?

Ali's last Ring Magazine ranking was in the December 1980 issue, at #11, immediately post-Holmes (ratings as of 10/4/80). Ali was ranked #5 in the previous issue, ratings as of 9-4-80.

Ambling Alp II wrote:You thought Norton won all three fights? Why have you never mentioned it before?

I have mentioned it many times. Ken Norton was the winner, in my view, in all 3 fights with The Greatest

That was a joke. You mention constantly; like ever time either Norton's or Ali's name is brought up.

Ambling Alp II wrote:That was a joke. You mention constantly; like ever time either Norton's or Ali's name is brought up.

Yep, I do believe he has mentioned it on occasion.

I guess I'll begin World War III by simply stating that if short fat Tony Galento couldn't miss the 25 yr old version of Joe's jaw with lead lefthooks, the best he can hope for vs Ali would be a wide pts loss.

Seamus wrote:I guess I'll begin World War III by simply stating that if short fat Tony Galento couldn't miss the 25 yr old version of Joe's jaw with lead lefthooks, the best he can hope for vs Ali would be a wide pts loss.

Lmao, I know that was meant in jest :P HOWEVER.... speaking of lead hooks.... I'm way off in the minority on this one, but I always felt that Max Baer (style wise) would have given Ali alot of problems. Of course, that's if the Baer who fought Schmeling, Galento, Campbell and others showed up. I will also take it a step further... Ali and Baer, probably would have been the richest heavyweight fight in history... Picture it, two good looking guys with TONS of character and personality with exciting styles... Cross over movie appeal, etc. It dont get much bigger than that.

Max Baer?

Anyway, Seamus touched on something with Louis.
People constantly probe Ali's career searching for anything negative, or anything they can spin negative. (ie the constant excuses for Ali's opponents, literally every remotely close fight fight is "controversial" etc.)

Look at Joe Louis:
Knocked down by Galento
Knocked down by Buddy Baer
Knocked down by Jim Braddock, who had not fought in two years.
No rematch with Braddock
Knocked out by Schmeling
Close fight with Tommy Farr
No rematch with Farr
Close fight with Arturo Godoy
Light heavyweight Billy Conn was a head of him going into the 13th round.
Controversial win against Buddy Baer
Max Baer's had injured hands going into their fight.
Kidney punches in Schmeling rematch almost never mentioned.
Never defended his title against Emler Ray
Never defended his title against Turkey Thompson
Never defended his title against Jimmy Bivins

Seldom are any of these things ever mentioned.

Or take Larry Holmes:
Decked by Renaldo Snipes
Decked by Earnie Shavers (Twice actually, referee mistakenly called one a shove)
Close decision win over Norton.
No rematch with Norton.
Close decision win over Witherspoon
No rematch with Witherspoon
Gift decision over Carl Williams
A lot of trouble with Mike Weaver
Never defended/unified title against Greg Page
Never defended title/unified title against Michael Dokes
Never defended/unified against Gerrie Coatzee
Never defended/unified against Pinklon Thomas

I could keep going but I think most people get the picture.

Some of these things are reach, or not that important. However, it is done with Ali over and over and over.

Look at Joe Louis:
Knocked down by Galento
Knocked down by Buddy Baer
Knocked down by Jim Braddock, who had not fought in two years.
No rematch with Braddock
Knocked out by Schmeling
Close fight with Tommy Farr
No rematch with Farr
Close fight with Arturo Godoy
Light heavyweight Billy Conn was a head of him going into the 13th round.
Controversial win against Buddy Baer
Max Baer's had injured hands going into their fight.
Kidney punches in Schmeling rematch almost never mentioned.
Never defended his title against Emler Ray
Never defended his title against Turkey Thompson
Never defended his title against Jimmy Bivins

I bring such things up. The "all in his prime" Louis, was in a very competitive fight with The Cinderella Man. He could be bulled and forced into slugfests, like with Galento. Schmeling, considered all but gone, made Louis look like a robot. Gudoy made Louis look ridiculously average. Conn was indeed whooping his ass. His "tremendous win for America" against Schmeling, made Dempsey/Willard look like a game of tag you're it in comparison. And of course, he never did face some very worthy men. Yet he had no issue or problem fighting the Johnny Paycheck's of the world.

Louis, for all his strengths, had alot of chinks in the armor. The problem was, seldom was their anyone with the chin capable of standing up to Louis's counters (if and when they landed). Seldom was their anyone who was the athlete, and well conditioned specimen that Louis was--- I mean hell, Galento was a full time bartender and part time fighter. And of course, seldom ever did Louis fight men with equal skill and intelligence as he was. When he did, they were too old, too green, too small.

Louis wouldn't beat Ali if they had 10 fight's style wise he would be chasing his tail for 15 round's Ali un dec every day of the week on sunday he TKO'S Joe in the 15th or there abouts

When it comes to those two, it's very divided. The people who grew up and was around the generation when the great Joe Louis was the champion will always defend Louis as the best heavyweight ever. The ones that grew up in the times of the great Muhammad Ali in the 60s and 70s will always defend that Ali was the best heavyweight ever.

It's been always like that. Of my generation, folks always were saying, the majority of them, that the great Mike Tyson was the best of them all, but, I knew better. But, the common man just see what is in front of him, and not beyond that.

Now, the generation after me, many of them are saying that the great Floyd Mayweather, Jr., is the best thing that ever happened in boxing
history.

Are the people in their generation wrong for saying those comments?

Yes they are wrong, and they should be subject to a good scolding.....but Goodnight Irene has left the building.