The Ali vs Louis Debate: Who Was the Greatest?

[elmersalsa]

For the many times we have debated about these two all time greats, in your view, who was the best heavyweight ever, and why is so?

These two, Ali and Louis go neck to neck in serious debates. It's like in football between Pele vs Maradona. Has there been a much closer debate than Ali vs Louis debate?

[cfang]

It's a really difficult one. These two are head and shoulders above the rest in my view.

Ali defo fought the better opponents overall but you could argue Louis was more dominant. Both missed their peak years. It's something that everyone knows about Ali but Louis missed even longer than Ali did due to WW2. Lets just say he had those years, you could easily expect a total of at least 35 defences, maybe more.

In a head to head I could see this going either way and it's impossible to call, Louis was a killer and both guys would not have fought anything like each other. Louis did have trouble with movers though so I'd edge Ali but I'm positive Louis would have done damage.

In terms of who is greater well I'm edging Ali again due to historical impact and comeback from adversity. It is close tho.

[SteveO]

It's a really difficult one. These two are head and shoulders above the rest in my view.

Ali defo fought the better opponents overall but you could argue Louis was more dominant. Both missed their peak years. It's something that everyone knows about Ali but Louis missed even longer than Ali did due to WW2. Lets just say he had those years, you could easily expect a total of at least 35 defences, maybe more.

In a head to head I could see this going either way and it's impossible to call, Louis was a killer and both guys would not have fought anything like each other. Louis did have trouble with movers though so I'd edge Ali but I'm positive Louis would have done damage.

In terms of who is greater well I'm edging Ali again due to historical impact and comeback from adversity. It is close tho.

That is pretty much how I feel about it also.
I think Ali's speed would have been the key. I pick an Ali points win.

[BoxBuzz]

I rate Louis above Frazier...but I honestly think Frazier was a more dangerous opponent than Louis was for Ali one on one.

So I do give the Louisville Lip the edge, and disagree with Joe that he would have just been another "bum on the tour".

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

These discussions favor moderns who tend to express opinions without context or factual basis as to why their hero is is #1.

Bert Sugar perhaps infamously chose Cleveland fullback Jim Brown for his all time greatest athlete. Never mind that teammate Marion Motley has a higher career rushing average and did it basketball hightops because no football cleats could be found then to fit his monstrous feet. Motley could also clear out the defense in support of his running back and quarterback, hard, gritty work that was beneath Brown, and Motley also pulled fulltime duty as linebacker, a two way, 60 minute player, something the coddled Brown was never good for. But of course Brown was also such a great lacrosse player, never mind that Wilt Chamberlain proved in two footraces that he was significantly faster than Brown and could turn him upside down to shake all his change loose at will not to mention being a collegiate, multi-event track and field star during his down time from basketball. Wilt a world class volleyball player in his retirement, the best in his day. Wilt didn't even like basketball because of it's stupid rules and the stupid media always pestering him, but it was the most lucrative option for him, so he made the best of it as a record setter both on offense and defense and even did a stint with the Harlem Globetrotters befoe his NBA career.

Now modern media "experts" claim Michel Jordan is the best athlete ever, never mind he ain't even a mediocre division B minor league baseball player and only a modestly endowed golfer. Jim Thorpe, fresh off an Indian reservation, won both Pentathlon and Decathlon Olympic gold medals in Sweden, then played major league baseball for several years before cofounding and becoming the first ever star of the National Football League. It don't get any better than that as an athlete, but moderns just shrug and say, Jim Who?

So, here we go, Broughton Rules Facts Update, just the facts ma'am, so:

What are the career records of Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali?

Joe 66-3, 52 KO vs Ali 56-5, 37 KO

OK, clearly Joe is vastly superior, but there are records and then there are RECORDS, so let's delve deeper.

ProDebut:

Joe, age 20 yrs, 1 month, 22 days, coming off winning the United States National AAU tournament with a final record of 50-4, 43 KO, debuted @ 181 lbs against Jack Kracken, 27-7-3, in the "city of the big shoulders," Chicago, July 4th, 1934, US Independence Day. Drops Kracken in the opening seconds and then blasts him through the ropes into the lap of the shocked Illinois commish to formally announce to the world the transformation from Joe Barrow to Joe Louis. Has there ever been a better boxing debut than that? Prior he was no more than a po' sharecropper's boy from Podunk, Alabama. The $59 depression purse went a long ways in those days, the most money he had ever earned in his life.

Ali, age 18 yrs, 9 months and 12 days, coming off Olympic Lightheavy Gold glory with a multitude of final ama record claims, debuts @ 192 lbs, October 29th, 1960, in his hometown of Louisville, Kentucky against Tunney Hunsaker, 16-9-1, a Sunday School teacher and police chief of Fayetteville, West Virginia. Ali touched up Hunsaker some with a bloody nose and cut eye for a 6 round unanimous decision and a healthy $2000 purse for the day. Solid hometown pro debut for such a young kid, but no comparison to the spectacular 4th of July fireworks set off by Joe.

Longest Title reign and record:

Joe 11 years, 252 days, 26-0, 23 KOs vs Ali three combined title runs of 3 years, 63 days + 3 years, 108 days + 284 days = 7 years, 90 days, 22-2. OK, but Joe had three more title fights, 1 competitive decision loss to Charles in his comeback and a knockout of Lee Savold who held the BBBC version of the split title + the last white heavy belt, and a competitive KO loss to Marciano for a final title record of 27-2 vs Ali's humiliation KO loss to Holmes for a final title record of 22-3.

Now, if we extend out the Ali years up to the first Frazier fight, they'd be just short of Joe, but, remember, Ali also relinquished his Ring belt early so his good buddy Jimmy Ellis could fight for it. Ring never awarded the belt to Ellis yet kept Ali as Champion through 1969. Joe is still superior.

First and last Ring Top 10 ratings:

Joe #1 in his first year of eligibility, age 20 vs Ali #9 in his first year of eligibility, age 19.

Joe #1 when he challenged Champion Charles in 1950, age 36, and #6 against #2 Marciano in 1951, age 37. Ali was last ranked as Champion in 1978, age 36.

Joe clearly superior though Ali managed to slide into Ring ratings a year earlier than Joe because of his earlier debut.

HOF fights:

Joe 13 such fights, 10-3 9 KO vs Ali 14 such fights, 11-3, 8 KO. Joe with 2 KO losses vs Ali with 1 KO loss.

Joe earliest HOFer and win @ age 21 yr, 4 month, 11 days over Baer vs Ali earliest HOFer and win @ age 20 yr, 9 months, 28 days over Moore.

Joe last HOF win @ age 37 yr, 3 month and a day over Blivins vs Ali last HOF win @ age 34 yr, 8 months, 11 days over Ken Norton, a hotly disputed decision.

Ali with tiny edge in total HOF fight, Joe with KOs, and Ali with one less KO loss. Joe a few months older for first HOF fight vs Ali a bit younger, but Joe considerably older for last HOF win than Ali. They both lost their last HOF fights by KO, but Joe in his 8th fight over 10 months in his 37th year gave Marciano all he could handle for 8 rounds vs Ali out of retirement carried mercifully by Holmes trying to get the fight stopped with no damage to Ali. Joe definitely finished the stronger fighter overall.

Controversial fights:

Joe only had two, the first Buddy Baer and JJWalcott fights which he quickly avenged with savage KOs in the rematches vs far too many controversial fights for Ali, really too embarrassing to mention that he always benefited from every controversy. Big advantage Joe who consistently took care of business in a more professional way than did Ali who needed a lot of help from the suits.

Unified America behind him:

Joe

Split up America over him:

Ali

Won a Supreme Court Decision:

Ali, of course, major props and maybe the highlight of his life.

Summoned to the White House by the President for consultation on impending military desegregation policy:

Joe, the one and only.

Inspiration for the two most prominent black civil rights spokesmen in history:

Both Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela count Joe Louis as providing the inspiration for a higher dignity and purpose of what their people people might achieve if allowed their civil rights.

Who loses to Leon?

Ali, of course. Joe on his worst day in shackles and blindfolded could never lose to Leon.

Now, lest this take on a wholly one sided analysis, in general most fans would agree that Joe Frazier and George Foreman are better than the best Joe took on, but Ali never really showed he was better than Frazier. Most can finally admit Joe whooped the holy jinn out of him the first fight, and did it in spite of referee Mercante near poking out his only good eye midway through the fight. The second fight was competitive and close, and the third a happenstance of incredible good fortune when Frazier's scout couldn't make it from Ali's corner to Frazier's corner to tell them Ali was quitting. Joe was on his feet bouncing around like a rubber ball waiting to be unleashed when Eddie Fuch pulled the plug as Ali stood up and collapsed. Nor could the terribly grevious conditions in Zaire that all favored Ali ever be replicated, thus no rematch with George who only spent 9 seconds on the canvas in his first career knockdown, yet was counted out. Compare to Ali who collapsed seconds later for a 30 count that took his legions to elevate him over to his corner. Yeah, and maybe Sonny Liston was better than Joe's best too, but Joe could easily beat a fighter who quit on his stool and take a dive as well as the next guy, so let's keep it real...over and out.

[Ambling Alp II]

Finally, finally Ali is getting some criticism. I didn't think this day would ever come. Nice to see an unbiased evaluation with no cherry picking of stats and accurate descriptions.

[BoxBuzz]

His last paragraph reveals a love of Joe, some regard for the other guy, but surely is not unbiased.

It includes assumptions regarding opinions, speaks to some one sided stuff regarding Eddie's actions, includes some interesting referee observations that appeared to favor Ali...with no mention of any other type of referee impositions, it speaks to an assumption (I am guessing) that everyone agrees that Joe and George are better than Rocky and Ezz. Yes it has some fair and balanced stuff, and some not so much.


To a fan of Archie Moore, it looks a bit one sided. If your a Joe Louis fan, I think you like this.....for others who favor Ali it may not quite pass the smell test for them.


AND it is chock full of facts no one can dispute, and some opinions I agree with. And some I don't.


But it is not devoid of spin of it's own. My dad would concur wholeheartedly. He was a Joe Louis fan.

[Giancarlo]

Joe was on his feet bouncing around like a rubber ball waiting to be unleashed when Eddie Fuch pulled the plug as Ali stood up and collapsed.

[Taansend]

Slightly off topic but I rate Jack Johnson above both of them.

Love Ali & Louis but Johnson was light years ahead of his time & if anyone thinks they had it hard due to skin colour then have a look at Johnsons time.

Johnson had it all. Not as fast as Ali & not the one punch of Louis but he was a better all rounder than either one.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'm not sure he was faster than Louis; can't be by much.
Not sure that he hit harder than Ali; can't be by much.

He was a great fighter. I have #4 and can see him at #3. Don't recall anyone on here having him that high.

[cfang]

I'm not sure he was faster than Louis; can't be by much.
Not sure that he hit harder than Ali; can't be by much.

He was a great fighter. I have #4 and can see him at #3. Don't recall anyone on here having him that high.

Ive got Jack Johnson at #3 with Holmes 4.

Johnson fought in a very different era with very different fights but I think he was the Mayweather of his day in terms of his ability and in many ways his style. Ive got Ali #1 and Louis #2 but I wouldnt argue with anyone who said Jack Johnson was #1. For all we know he could have beaten any of the title holders since him. He was totally dominant and the best heavy in the world for about 10 years. I guess it's easier to pick holes in his record due to the time he boxed and his loafing style. He couldn't just ko guys in 1 every fight as he wouldn't get fights so he had to take it easy on guys. Also, no other boxer had to put up with as much racist abuse and general adversity as Jack. IMO Anyone who thinks he wasnt light years ahead of the guys of his era and that includes jeffries just dont see what i see and read what i read.

[cfang]

Slightly off topic but I rate Jack Johnson above both of them.

Love Ali & Louis but Johnson was light years ahead of his time & if anyone thinks they had it hard due to skin colour then have a look at Johnsons time.

Johnson had it all. Not as fast as Ali & not the one punch of Louis but he was a better all rounder than either one.

[greenpudding]

Louis was a class above Ali

[elmersalsa]

I'm not sure he was faster than Louis; can't be by much.
Not sure that he hit harder than Ali; can't be by much.

He was a great fighter. I have #4 and can see him at #3. Don't recall anyone on here having him that high.

Ive got Jack Johnson at #3 with Holmes 4.

Johnson fought in a very different era with very different fights but I think he was the Mayweather of his day in terms of his ability and in many ways his style. Ive got Ali #1 and Louis #2 but I wouldnt argue with anyone who said Jack Johnson was #1. For all we know he could have beaten any of the title holders since him. He was totally dominant and the best heavy in the world for about 10 years. I guess it's easier to pick holes in his record due to the time he boxed and his loafing style. He couldn't just ko guys in 1 every fight as he wouldn't get fights so he had to take it easy on guys. Also, no other boxer had to put up with as much racist abuse and general adversity as Jack. IMO Anyone who thinks he wasnt light years ahead of the guys of his era and that includes jeffries just dont see what i see and read what i read.

I think at one point The Ring Editor and Founder, Nat Fleischer, rated the great Jack Johnson at #1

[elmersalsa]

These discussions favor moderns who tend to express opinions without context or factual basis as to why their hero is is #1.

Bert Sugar perhaps infamously chose Cleveland fullback Jim Brown for his all time greatest athlete. Never mind that teammate Marion Motley has a higher career rushing average and did it basketball hightops because no football cleats could be found then to fit his monstrous feet. Motley could also clear out the defense in support of his running back and quarterback, hard, gritty work that was beneath Brown, and Motley also pulled fulltime duty as linebacker, a two way, 60 minute player, something the coddled Brown was never good for. But of course Brown was also such a great lacrosse player, never mind that Wilt Chamberlain proved in two footraces that he was significantly faster than Brown and could turn him upside down to shake all his change loose at will not to mention being a collegiate, multi-event track and field star during his down time from basketball. Wilt a world class volleyball player in his retirement, the best in his day. Wilt didn't even like basketball because of it's stupid rules and the stupid media always pestering him, but it was the most lucrative option for him, so he made the best of it as a record setter both on offense and defense and even did a stint with the Harlem Globetrotters befoe his NBA career.

Now modern media "experts" claim Michel Jordan is the best athlete ever, never mind he ain't even a mediocre division B minor league baseball player and only a modestly endowed golfer. Jim Thorpe, fresh off an Indian reservation, won both Pentathlon and Decathlon Olympic gold medals in Sweden, then played major league baseball for several years before cofounding and becoming the first ever star of the National Football League. It don't get any better than that as an athlete, but moderns just shrug and say, Jim Who?

So, here we go, Broughton Rules Facts Update, just the facts ma'am, so:

What are the career records of Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali?

Joe 66-3, 52 KO vs Ali 56-5, 37 KO

OK, clearly Joe is vastly superior, but there are records and then there are RECORDS, so let's delve deeper.

ProDebut:

Joe, age 20 yrs, 1 month, 22 days, coming off winning the United States National AAU tournament with a final record of 50-4, 43 KO, debuted @ 181 lbs against Jack Kracken, 27-7-3, in the "city of the big shoulders," Chicago, July 4th, 1934, US Independence Day. Drops Kracken in the opening seconds and then blasts him through the ropes into the lap of the shocked Illinois commish to formally announce to the world the transformation from Joe Barrow to Joe Louis. Has there ever been a better boxing debut than that? Prior he was no more than a po' sharecropper's boy from Podunk, Alabama. The $59 depression purse went a long ways in those days, the most money he had ever earned in his life.

Ali, age 18 yrs, 9 months and 12 days, coming off Olympic Lightheavy Gold glory with a multitude of final ama record claims, debuts @ 192 lbs, October 29th, 1960, in his hometown of Louisville, Kentucky against Tunney Hunsaker, 16-9-1, a Sunday School teacher and police chief of Fayetteville, West Virginia. Ali touched up Hunsaker some with a bloody nose and cut eye for a 6 round unanimous decision and a healthy $2000 purse for the day. Solid hometown pro debut for such a young kid, but no comparison to the spectacular 4th of July fireworks set off by Joe.

Longest Title reign and record:

Joe 11 years, 252 days, 26-0, 23 KOs vs Ali three combined title runs of 3 years, 63 days + 3 years, 108 days + 284 days = 7 years, 90 days, 22-2. OK, but Joe had three more title fights, 1 competitive decision loss to Charles in his comeback and a knockout of Lee Savold who held the BBBC version of the split title + the last white heavy belt, and a competitive KO loss to Marciano for a final title record of 27-2 vs Ali's humiliation KO loss to Holmes for a final title record of 22-3.

Now, if we extend out the Ali years up to the first Frazier fight, they'd be just short of Joe, but, remember, Ali also relinquished his Ring belt early so his good buddy Jimmy Ellis could fight for it. Ring never awarded the belt to Ellis yet kept Ali as Champion through 1969. Joe is still superior.

First and last Ring Top 10 ratings:

Joe #1 in his first year of eligibility, age 20 vs Ali #9 in his first year of eligibility, age 19.

Joe #1 when he challenged Champion Charles in 1950, age 36, and #6 against #2 Marciano in 1951, age 37. Ali was last ranked as Champion in 1978, age 36.

Joe clearly superior though Ali managed to slide into Ring ratings a year earlier than Joe because of his earlier debut.

HOF fights:

Joe 13 such fights, 10-3 9 KO vs Ali 14 such fights, 11-3, 8 KO. Joe with 2 KO losses vs Ali with 1 KO loss.

Joe earliest HOFer and win @ age 21 yr, 4 month, 11 days over Baer vs Ali earliest HOFer and win @ age 20 yr, 9 months, 28 days over Moore.

Joe last HOF win @ age 37 yr, 3 month and a day over Blivins vs Ali last HOF win @ age 34 yr, 8 months, 11 days over Ken Norton, a hotly disputed decision.

Ali with tiny edge in total HOF fight, Joe with KOs, and Ali with one less KO loss. Joe a few months older for first HOF fight vs Ali a bit younger, but Joe considerably older for last HOF win than Ali. They both lost their last HOF fights by KO, but Joe in his 8th fight over 10 months in his 37th year gave Marciano all he could handle for 8 rounds vs Ali out of retirement carried mercifully by Holmes trying to get the fight stopped with no damage to Ali. Joe definitely finished the stronger fighter overall.

Controversial fights:

Joe only had two, the first Buddy Baer and JJWalcott fights which he quickly avenged with savage KOs in the rematches vs far too many controversial fights for Ali, really too embarrassing to mention that he always benefited from every controversy. Big advantage Joe who consistently took care of business in a more professional way than did Ali who needed a lot of help from the suits.

Unified America behind him:

Joe

Split up America over him:

Ali

Won a Supreme Court Decision:

Ali, of course, major props and maybe the highlight of his life.

Summoned to the White House by the President for consultation on impending military desegregation policy:

Joe, the one and only.

Inspiration for the two most prominent black civil rights spokesmen in history:

Both Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela count Joe Louis as providing the inspiration for a higher dignity and purpose of what their people people might achieve if allowed their civil rights.

Who loses to Leon?

Ali, of course. Joe on his worst day in shackles and blindfolded could never lose to Leon.

Now, lest this take on a wholly one sided analysis, in general most fans would agree that Joe Frazier and George Foreman are better than the best Joe took on, but Ali never really showed he was better than Frazier. Most can finally admit Joe whooped the holy jinn out of him the first fight, and did it in spite of referee Mercante near poking out his only good eye midway through the fight. The second fight was competitive and close, and the third a happenstance of incredible good fortune when Frazier's scout couldn't make it from Ali's corner to Frazier's corner to tell them Ali was quitting. Joe was on his feet bouncing around like a rubber ball waiting to be unleashed when Eddie Fuch pulled the plug as Ali stood up and collapsed. Nor could the terribly grevious conditions in Zaire that all favored Ali ever be replicated, thus no rematch with George who only spent 9 seconds on the canvas in his first career knockdown, yet was counted out. Compare to Ali who collapsed seconds later for a 30 count that took his legions to elevate him over to his corner. Yeah, and maybe Sonny Liston was better than Joe's best too, but Joe could easily beat a fighter who quit on his stool and take a dive as well as the next guy, so let's keep it real...over and out.

Nice analogy. That is why is hard to say who was the greatest between the two. Ali vs Louis is the hardest to rate when it comes of the top dog of a weight division

[HomicideHenry]

Louis, in my view, was probably the greatest heavyweight of the first half of the twentieth century....

Ali, in my view, was probably the greatest heavyweight of the second half of the twentieth century....

That being said, I favor Larry Holmes over Ali and Louis.

I guess it all comes down to who could have had the most wins/losses against the entire scope of heavyweight history. How many champions could Louis have defeated? How many could Ali have defeated? Let's think hypothetically, that these two men were to fight every three months... and every third month it was a champion... Who would have held up better? I think Louis would have had the edge in fighting often, and coming out the victor and unlike Ali.... Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse. There's an awful lot of factors to take in, but I've talked to alot of old-timers who seen everyone from Dempsey to Lewis, and said that they felt Louis was the best of the bunch.

That being said, I favor Holyfield and Dempsey and maybe one or two others to beat Joe or to give him a hell of a fight.

[man]

too close to call.

[man]

Louis, in my view, was probably the greatest heavyweight of the first half of the twentieth century....

Ali, in my view, was probably the greatest heavyweight of the second half of the twentieth century....

That being said, I favor Larry Holmes over Ali and Louis.

brilliant. just brilliant.

[SteveO]

Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

[Scypion]

I loved Joe Louis. Having said that, I would have to give Ali the edge over Louis and probably anyone else. Nobody could seem to hurt Ali, not even George Foreman or Joe Frazier. The fact that Ali could take a punch so well gave him an advantage.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ali would be to swift on his feet and with the fastest hand's Louis ever faced would be in a commanding position on the score card's by the middle round's The Brown Bomber would rally in round's 7 through 11 but by the 12th round Ali would take command and box brilliantly
to earn a un dec

[Switch hitter]

If Billy Conn could manage it for 13 rounds I'm sure Ali could for 15 ....... Ali by a wide UD

[HomicideHenry]

Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

True.... but..... lets break it down....

Quarry? The second fight took longer.

Chuvalo? The second fight was duller.

Norton? There's alot of people who feel Norton was robbed in that last fight.

Frazier? Ali took so much abuse in Manila, and though he won, he was all but done too.

Spinks? The rematch was really nothing to speak of, it was history making yes, but very dull.

With the exception of Henry Cooper, Ali never looked "better" by a wide margin in rematches.

Louis on the other hand.... knocked guys the hell out in rematches.

[Crease]

My friends know that I am a massive Rocky Marciano fan, and they were surprised when they asked me if I could watch any Heavyweight fight in history prime-for-prime... They assumed that I was going to say Marciano vs Ali.

But I said Marciano vs Louis - when they asked me why - I said "because Joe was better that Ali"

[SteveO]

Louis seemed to be greater in rematches, where Ali seemed to get worse

???
Ali won every rematch he fought.

True.... but..... lets break it down....

Quarry? The second fight took longer.

Chuvalo? The second fight was duller.

Norton? There's alot of people who feel Norton was robbed in that last fight.

Frazier? Ali took so much abuse in Manila, and though he won, he was all but done too.

Spinks? The rematch was really nothing to speak of, it was history making yes, but very dull.

With the exception of Henry Cooper, Ali never looked "better" by a wide margin in rematches.

Louis on the other hand.... knocked guys the hell out in rematches.

Agreed, the rematches with Frazier and Norton were all tough fights for Ali but the rest were easy wins for him.
You forgot the rematches with Liston and Bugner BTW.