BoxRec

cfang wrote: [Ali was] 15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever.

littlepug wrote:barkley v hearns 1 and 2 ?

stevedoc wrote:

littlepug wrote:barkley v hearns 1 and 2 ?

I watched the 1st Rd of the first fight 5 minutes ago, hearns lands some mean hooks so fast

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:Ali seems to get no credit for either Liston fight. People waffle on about mafia and shoulder injury and blah blah blah ... I think also when you look at what Ali did for the rest of his career (15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever), you can see the Liston fights in their true light, an aged dinosaur up against a new faster, hungrier and more determined future legend of the sport. Ali was better than Liston - full stop- they fought twice and Ali won...twice.

As you said... Liston was an aged dinosaur. But Liston also suffered a severely torn left biceps in the first fight (Liston quit with the fight dead even on the cards) and Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch for failing to go to a neutral corner and flagrantly refusing the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner... Also the count should have been suspended when Ali failed to follow the rules---and it WASN'T... Liston never got a count from Walcott, but he resumed fighting after Ali finally went to a neutral corner and he got up... Ali attacked, but couldn't land a single follow up punch. Liston easily ducked and dodged Ali's follow up barrage so his reflexes were intact after the light knockdown punch... Ring Magazine editor, Nat Fleischer, screamed at Walcott and erroneously directed him to stop the fight.. Fleischer was NOT a boxing official or commission member.

Liston was the fall guy for the comedy of errors in that fight... His boxing license was suspended in all 50 states for "faking" a knockdown... I thought that was outrageous!!! ... Why would Liston get up and resume fighting Ali if he intended to throw the fight??? ... Why wouldn't Liston just wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner...and then come back and count him out... IF he intended to throw the fight???

NOBODY answered those questions to Liston or ANY Liston team member's satisfaction... They just kept saying "We think you faked the knockdown."

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: [Ali was] 15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever.

THE TOP 30 HEAVYWEIGHTS TODAY...

1. Tyson Fury... 2. Anthony Joshua... 3. Luis Ortiz... 4. Deontay Wilder... 5. Wladimir Klitschko... 6. Alexander Povetkin... 7. David Haye... 8. Andy Ruiz... 9. Joseph Parker... 10. Charles Martin... 11. Bryant Jennings... 12. Erkan Teper... 13. Hughie Fury... 14. Kubrat Pulev... 15. Johann Duhaupas... 16. Ruslan Chagaev... 17. Bermane Stiverne... 18. Lucas Browne... 19. Malik Scott... 20. Carlos Takam... 21. Mike Perez... 22. Alexander Ustinov... 23. Dereck Chisora... 24. Christian Hammer... 25. Robert Helenius... 26. Steve Cunningham... 27. Artur Szpilka... 28. Otto Wallin... 29. Czar Glazkov... 30. Dominic Breazeale... 31. Amir Mansour

Some of the very TERRIBLE Heavyweight Title Challengers from the 1950’s, 60’s and 70’s...

Don Cockell... Roland LaStarza... Tommy Jackson... Tom McNeely... Pete Rademacher... Brian London... Henry Cooper... Alfredo Evangelista... Chuck Wepner... Jean Pierre Coopman... Leon Stinks... Terry Daniels... Dave Zyglewitz... Manuel Ramos... Ron Stander... Richard Dunn


Malik Scott (#19) would box all of those pathetic 50’s and 60’s swingers to death and not lose a round. Gee whiz, he’s not even a puncher and he would stop most all of those undersized and strengthless swinger from those weak eras.

cfang wrote:Take the x3 times lonsdale belt title holder henry cooper off that list too. Cooper was a class fighter, just not quite good enough to be undisputed heavy champion as he lost to the 3 heavyweight champs he fought but he had some good wins too and was a solid boxer with a lot of mental strength and a great left hook. Call ing him terrible is just wrong.

Roland LaStarza wasn't terrible either - he was talented. some of the guys youve listed from today haven't even fought anyone inside the top 20 - see AJ.

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: [Ali was] 15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever.

THE TOP 30 HEAVYWEIGHTS TODAY...

1. Tyson Fury... 2. Anthony Joshua... 3. Luis Ortiz... 4. Deontay Wilder... 5. Wladimir Klitschko... 6. Alexander Povetkin... 7. David Haye... 8. Andy Ruiz... 9. Joseph Parker... 10. Charles Martin... 11. Bryant Jennings... 12. Erkan Teper... 13. Hughie Fury... 14. Kubrat Pulev... 15. Johann Duhaupas... 16. Ruslan Chagaev... 17. Bermane Stiverne... 18. Lucas Browne... 19. Malik Scott... 20. Carlos Takam... 21. Mike Perez... 22. Alexander Ustinov... 23. Dereck Chisora... 24. Christian Hammer... 25. Robert Helenius... 26. Steve Cunningham... 27. Artur Szpilka... 28. Otto Wallin... 29. Czar Glazkov... 30. Dominic Breazeale... 31. Amir Mansour

Some of the very TERRIBLE Heavyweight Title Challengers from the 1950’s, 60’s and 70’s...

Don Cockell... Roland LaStarza... Tommy Jackson... Tom McNeely... Pete Rademacher... Brian London... Henry Cooper... Alfredo Evangelista... Chuck Wepner... Jean Pierre Coopman... Leon Stinks... Terry Daniels... Dave Zyglewitz... Manuel Ramos... Ron Stander... Richard Dunn


Malik Scott (#19) would box all of those pathetic 50’s and 60’s swingers to death and not lose a round. Gee whiz, he’s not even a puncher and he would stop most all of those undersized and strengthless swinger from those weak eras.

cfang wrote:So the fight was even and Liston got injured - how unlucky for him etc. Good job he got a rematch so he could set the record straight - oh that lasted a round. You aren't seriously suggesting that Liston wasn't tired and beaten by Ali - oh and despite the dirty trick of rubbing some horrible goo on him to blind Ali. You think Sonny was going to come on strong and stop Ali in the later rounds I guess - just like he did in the rematch!

There were two fights - one ended up with Liston quitting and the other he was embarrassed by getting decked in round 1. Ali was superior simple as that.

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:Ali seems to get no credit for either Liston fight. People waffle on about mafia and shoulder injury and blah blah blah ... I think also when you look at what Ali did for the rest of his career (15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever), you can see the Liston fights in their true light, an aged dinosaur up against a new faster, hungrier and more determined future legend of the sport. Ali was better than Liston - full stop- they fought twice and Ali won...twice.

As you said... Liston was an aged dinosaur. But Liston also suffered a severely torn left biceps in the first fight (Liston quit with the fight dead even on the cards) and Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch for failing to go to a neutral corner and flagrantly refusing the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner... Also the count should have been suspended when Ali failed to follow the rules---and it WASN'T... Liston never got a count from Walcott, but he resumed fighting after Ali finally went to a neutral corner and he got up... Ali attacked, but couldn't land a single follow up punch. Liston easily ducked and dodged Ali's follow up barrage so his reflexes were intact after the light knockdown punch... Ring Magazine editor, Nat Fleischer, screamed at Walcott and erroneously directed him to stop the fight.. Fleischer was NOT a boxing official or commission member.

Liston was the fall guy for the comedy of errors in that fight... His boxing license was suspended in all 50 states for "faking" a knockdown... I thought that was outrageous!!! ... Why would Liston get up and resume fighting Ali if he intended to throw the fight??? ... Why wouldn't Liston just wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner...and then come back and count him out... IF he intended to throw the fight???

NOBODY answered those questions to Liston or ANY Liston team member's satisfaction... They just kept saying "We think you faked the knockdown."

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:So the fight was even and Liston got injured - how unlucky for him etc. Good job he got a rematch so he could set the record straight - oh that lasted a round. You aren't seriously suggesting that Liston wasn't tired and beaten by Ali - oh and despite the dirty trick of rubbing some horrible goo on him to blind Ali. You think Sonny was going to come on strong and stop Ali in the later rounds I guess - just like he did in the rematch!

There were two fights - one ended up with Liston quitting and the other he was embarrassed by getting decked in round 1. Ali was superior simple as that.

Kalan wrote:
As you said... Liston was an aged dinosaur. But Liston also suffered a severely torn left biceps in the first fight (Liston quit with the fight dead even on the cards) and Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch for failing to go to a neutral corner and flagrantly refusing the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner... Also the count should have been suspended when Ali failed to follow the rules---and it WASN'T... Liston never got a count from Walcott, but he resumed fighting after Ali finally went to a neutral corner and he got up... Ali attacked, but couldn't land a single follow up punch. Liston easily ducked and dodged Ali's follow up barrage so his reflexes were intact after the light knockdown punch... Ring Magazine editor, Nat Fleischer, screamed at Walcott and erroneously directed him to stop the fight.. Fleischer was NOT a boxing official or commission member.

Liston was the fall guy for the comedy of errors in that fight... His boxing license was suspended in all 50 states for "faking" a knockdown... I thought that was outrageous!!! ... Why would Liston get up and resume fighting Ali if he intended to throw the fight??? ... Why wouldn't Liston just wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner...and then come back and count him out... IF he intended to throw the fight???

NOBODY answered those questions to Liston or ANY Liston team member's satisfaction... They just kept saying "We think you faked the knockdown."

So just ignore the facts right????... Ignore the fact that Ali refused to go to a neutral corner and should have been DQ'd for flagrantly disobeying a referee's order... And Liston got NO COUNT because of Ali ignoring the rules... That's the reason you suspend a count if a boxer refuses to go to a neutral corner... Because the rules state the referee must count out the boxer and not the timekeeper, so the boxer knows what the count is. If referee Walcott DQ'd Ali nobody would have blamed him... A boxer should not be able to show such contempt for a referee's authority.

And even though Liston had a badly torn left biceps in the first fight -- the fight was even on the cards.

Syntax Error wrote:Julio Cesar Chavez v Meldrick Taylor 1 - All folk ever say that there were 2 seconds left. Chavez never gets any credit for rallying back & stopping a guy who was beating him.

The referee's only concern should be the wellbeing of the fighter & not how many more seconds of punishment he can take.

gilgamesh wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Julio Cesar Chavez v Meldrick Taylor 1 - All folk ever say that there were 2 seconds left. Chavez never gets any credit for rallying back & stopping a guy who was beating him.

The referee's only concern should be the wellbeing of the fighter & not how many more seconds of punishment he can take.

When the answer is Zero seconds of punishment he'd take and the fight is over he shouldn't stop the fight. But yes Chavez deserves massive credit for doing what he had to do for pulling that fight out of the fire, but you can't ever give Chavez full credit because Richard Steele gets the assist.

littlepug wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Julio Cesar Chavez v Meldrick Taylor 1 - All folk ever say that there were 2 seconds left. Chavez never gets any credit for rallying back & stopping a guy who was beating him.

The referee's only concern should be the wellbeing of the fighter & not how many more seconds of punishment he can take.

When the answer is Zero seconds of punishment he'd take and the fight is over he shouldn't stop the fight. But yes Chavez deserves massive credit for doing what he had to do for pulling that fight out of the fire, but you can't ever give Chavez full credit because Richard Steele gets the assist.

nah man taylor didn't respond, had he been able to he would of won, he didn't so he lost

orbtastic wrote:The doctor that saw him in ER after the fight didn't know who he was, looking at his injuries he assumed he'd been in a car accident.

keithmoonhangover wrote:Anyone who thinks Steele acted legitimately, watch the first Hearns Barkley fight and look at the condition Hearns is in when he is allowed to continue.

Tomasino wrote:Steele did it for Don King. As much damage as Taylor had taken, he was ahead on the cards. Another 2 mins in the ring with Chavez could have killed him, no doubt, but not 2 seconds. That damage allowed the press to cloud the robbery with doubts but Taylor should have heard the final bell. He was amazing that night.


Did Don King rip Julio Chavez off? There's lots of info about the heavyweights he shafted but never heard anything re Julio. He seemed to be well looked after.