Wins That Boxers Don't Get Enough Credit For.

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 30 Jun 2016, 16:54

I'm talking about fights that the winner doesn't get much credit for and the urban myth behind why.

Tyson's win over Spinks.... Spinks was scared and didn't want to fight
Leonard-Duran II - Duran didn't train properly.

Any more for any more. Please Kalan, I beg you, please don't ruin this thread with loads of your anti-Ali bullsh1t.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Jun 2016, 16:58

Leonard/Duran 1- fought the wrong fight

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 30 Jun 2016, 17:01

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard/Duran 1- fought the wrong fight

Do you think the result is overlooked? I think Duran gets full credit for that fight.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Jun 2016, 17:05

keithmoonhangover wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard/Duran 1- fought the wrong fight
Do you think the result is overlooked? I think Duran gets full credit for that fight.

Not by everyone, but that excuse is right there with the most used in Boxing history.

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 30 Jun 2016, 17:10

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
keithmoonhangover wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard/Duran 1- fought the wrong fight
Do you think the result is overlooked? I think Duran gets full credit for that fight.
Not by everyone, but that excuse is right there with the most used in Boxing history.

Well, that's because a lot of people think it's true, including some very well respected observes. It's also something that some people see when they watch the fight. Some of the other excuses that were in the build up to the fight aren't so obvious.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Jun 2016, 17:19

keithmoonhangover wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
keithmoonhangover wrote:
Do you think the result is overlooked? I think Duran gets full credit for that fight.
Not by everyone, but that excuse is right there with the most used in Boxing history.
Well, that's because a lot of people think it's true, including some very well respected observes. It's also something that some people see when they watch the fight. Some of the other excuses that were in the build up to the fight aren't so obvious.

I'm aware of what people think and I disagree with them. The fact that there are so many is what led to that being my answer to your question.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 01 Jul 2016, 06:41

Even if the great Ray Leonard would've run and stick and move in Montreal, he would've lost to The Hands of Stone, anyway. It was Duran's night. He wasn't going to be denied. That Duran in Montreal, to me, was magnificent. Nobody beats him on that night. Not even the great Sugar Ray Robinson would have beaten him. He was that good.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 01 Jul 2016, 06:48

In no way in hell I see the great Micheal Spinks beating that force of nature named Iron Mike Tyson. You could throw all sorts of excuses. It would have been worthless.

Ali vs Frazier I: The Greatest was out of his prime. He had a three-year layoff. He underestimated Smokin' Joe. He should have had more fights. He was rushed off too soon for the title, blah, blah, blah, etc.
The truth was, no matter how you look at it, it was the great Joe Frazier's finest hour. Ali got his ass whupped, and that's all it was to it.

cfang · Post by **cfang** » 01 Jul 2016, 07:29

There's a couple of biggies that spring to mind.

First off Johnson vs Jeffries. I don't think Jeffries was as shot as some say. He had ages to train for it, looked in great shape and very powerful and also he only had like 20 odd fights so wasn't as shopworn as a fighter who has had 60/70. Ofc he wasnt as good as before but i think it wouldnt have made much difference. Johnson was a fighter from a new era and was just streets ahead.

Marciano vs Louis is another. Louis was somewhat shot but was still on a good run and had a lot to offer. His punch still looked in order and his jab too. Rocky did a great job Koing him imo.

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 01 Jul 2016, 09:02

elmersalsa wrote:Even if the great Ray Leonard would've run and stick and move in Montreal, he would've lost to The Hands of Stone, anyway. It was Duran's night. He wasn't going to be denied. That Duran in Montreal, to me, was magnificent. Nobody beats him on that night. Not even the great Sugar Ray Robinson would have beaten him. He was that good.

We will always disagree on this. Maybe we can move on to something else.

PredatorHayds · Post by **PredatorHayds** » 01 Jul 2016, 11:49

Aaron Pryor over Arguello for the obvious controversy.

Also Chavez gets no credit for the Taylor win. If he stops him 10 seconds earlier everyone is unanimous in his heart and determination to win so late.

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 01 Jul 2016, 12:05

PredatorHayds wrote:Aaron Pryor over Arguello for the obvious controversy.

Also Chavez gets no credit for the Taylor win. If he stops him 10 seconds earlier everyone is unanimous in his heart and determination to win so late.

Excellent pics mate.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 01 Jul 2016, 12:48

Holyfield/Qawi 2 always gets brushed aside. He was post, but Foreman couldn't knock him out.

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 01 Jul 2016, 14:50

Duran was Great in Duran-Leonard 1, no question about it.

But Leonard admitted to letting him get under his skin. Roberto insulted SRL's wife and family.

Yes, I think Duran likely would have won anyway; as said, it was his night. But getting SR pissed helped the victory along.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 01 Jul 2016, 16:01

I don’t think Muhammad Ali was given enough credit for his great win over Alfredo Evangelista.

The only plaudits Ali got came from the Nobel Foundation... During Johnny Carson's monologue he advised his national TV audience: “And breaking news folks, hot off the wire... Muhammad Ali and Alfredo Evangelista have just been awarded the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for Promoting Non-Violence in Boxing.”

That got one of the biggest laughs I’ve ever heard... Terrible... I thought it was shameful to ridicule the great Ali like that.

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 01 Jul 2016, 16:08

Kalan wrote:I don’t think Muhammad Ali was given enough credit for his great win over Alfredo Evangelista.

The only plaudits Ali got came from the Nobel Foundation... During Johnny Carson's monologue he advised his national TV audience: “And breaking news folks, hot off the wire... Muhammad Ali and Alfredo Evangelista have just been awarded the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for Promoting Non-Violence in Boxing.”

That got one of the biggest laughs I’ve ever heard... Terrible... I thought it was shameful to ridicule the great Ali like that.

You are obsessed.

cfang · Post by **cfang** » 03 Jul 2016, 04:51

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Holyfield/Qawi 2 always gets brushed aside. He was post, but Foreman couldn't knock him out.

Rexob · Post by **Rexob** » 03 Jul 2016, 12:28

Tyson Fury anybody else would considered a semi god.

hhaehre · Post by **hhaehre** » 03 Jul 2016, 18:40

Tyson-Holmes
Holyfield-Foreman
Holmes and Foreman, not really shot after all.

hhaehre · Post by **hhaehre** » 03 Jul 2016, 18:45

Kalan wrote:I don’t think Muhammad Ali was given enough credit for his great win over Alfredo Evangelista.

The only plaudits Ali got came from the Nobel Foundation... During Johnny Carson's monologue he advised his national TV audience: “And breaking news folks, hot off the wire... Muhammad Ali and Alfredo Evangelista have just been awarded the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for Promoting Non-Violence in Boxing.”

That got one of the biggest laughs I’ve ever heard... Terrible... I thought it was shameful to ridicule the great Ali like that.

Wilt vs. Lovellette, the greatest basketball fight ever, yet few people know about it.
In at a strong no 2, Joshua vs. every cab driver and part-timer he's ever fought.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 04 Jul 2016, 04:56

hhaehre wrote:Tyson-Holmes
Holyfield-Foreman
Holmes and Foreman, not really shot after all.

I agree with Tyson v Holmes.

I get it that Holmes was 38 & rusty, but I don't think any other HW would have dispatched Larry as easily as Tyson did that night.

Holmes fought on for another 14 years after that fight & was never close to being battered like that.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 04 Jul 2016, 06:12

Kalan wrote:I don’t think Muhammad Ali was given enough credit for his great win over Alfredo Evangelista.

The only plaudits Ali got came from the Nobel Foundation... During Johnny Carson's monologue he advised his national TV audience: “And breaking news folks, hot off the wire... Muhammad Ali and Alfredo Evangelista have just been awarded the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for Promoting Non-Violence in Boxing.”

That got one of the biggest laughs I’ve ever heard... Terrible... I thought it was shameful to ridicule the great Ali like that.

I think Muhammad Ali owes you money!

cfang · Post by **cfang** » 04 Jul 2016, 10:43

Ali seems to get no credit for either Liston fight. People waffle on about mafia and shoulder injury and blah blah blah. the truth is Liston was slow and used to beating up smaller fighters. Ali was new and fought like nobody else. Liston couldn't dominate the way he could others. I think also when you look at what Ali did for the rest of his career (15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever), you can see the Liston fights in their true light, an aged dinosaur up against a new faster, hungrier and more determined future legend of the sport. Ali was better than Liston - full stop- they fought twice and Ali won...twice.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 04 Jul 2016, 10:54

cfang wrote:Ali seems to get no credit for either Liston fight. People waffle on about mafia and shoulder injury and blah blah blah. the truth is Liston was slow and used to beating up smaller fighters. Ali was new and fought like nobody else. Liston couldn't dominate the way he could others. I think also when you look at what Ali did for the rest of his career (15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever), you can see the Liston fights in their true light, an aged dinosaur up against a new faster, hungrier and more determined future legend of the sport. Ali was better than Liston - full stop- they fought twice and Ali won...twice.

On the money.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 04 Jul 2016, 13:23

cfang wrote:Ali seems to get no credit for either Liston fight. People waffle on about mafia and shoulder injury and blah blah blah ... I think also when you look at what Ali did for the rest of his career (15 years at the top beating the best crop of heavys ever), you can see the Liston fights in their true light, an aged dinosaur up against a new faster, hungrier and more determined future legend of the sport. Ali was better than Liston - full stop- they fought twice and Ali won...twice.

As you said... Liston was an aged dinosaur. But Liston also suffered a severely torn left biceps in the first fight (Liston quit with the fight dead even on the cards) and Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch for failing to go to a neutral corner and flagrantly refusing the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner... Also the count should have been suspended when Ali failed to follow the rules---and it WASN'T... Liston never got a count from Walcott, but he resumed fighting after Ali finally went to a neutral corner and he got up... Ali attacked, but couldn't land a single follow up punch. Liston easily ducked and dodged Ali's follow up barrage so his reflexes were intact after the light knockdown punch... Ring Magazine editor, Nat Fleischer, screamed at Walcott and erroneously directed him to stop the fight.. Fleischer was NOT a boxing official or commission member.

Liston was the fall guy for the comedy of errors in that fight... His boxing license was suspended in all 50 states for "faking" a knockdown... I thought that was outrageous!!! ... Why would Liston get up and resume fighting Ali if he intended to throw the fight??? ... Why wouldn't Liston just wait for Walcott to push Ali to a neutral corner...and then come back and count him out... IF he intended to throw the fight???

NOBODY answered those questions to Liston or ANY Liston team member's satisfaction... They just kept saying "We think you faked the knockdown."

Wins That Boxers Don't Get Enough Credit For.

Wins That Boxers Don't Get Enough Credit For.

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