On This Day: Joe Calzaghe dominates Jeff Lacy

[Covfefe]

Kalan,

You earlier claimed Lacy was unproven and now suggest Froch had proven himself by beating and older version of Robin Reid than the one Jeff Lacy fought and beat. I hate it when people try to change the past on here, I suspect more than likely you had no idea who carl froch was in 2007, especially after you suggesting he would have sold tickets like he did against Groves. Also worth pointing out that Kessler beat Froch.

I'm not suggesting anything. Calzaghe-Lacy was big because people are suckers for hype. Calzaghe struggled with Reid -- so it's a selling point for sure.

But Froch was a much better fighter than Lacy... I knew exactly who Froch was before he had 10 fights... I knew he was going to be big. You could tell he had the sauce by watching him and Lacy didn't have it---no smarts. When Froch got another win as British Empire Champion he would call out Calz -- like Groves called out Froch. Ring magazine would have a headline "Froch wins by KO, calls out Calzaghe" so I think a lot of Americans were following him. He was on American TV knocking guys out. Certainly NOBODY heard of most of Calzaghe's pathetic challengers. Most of them did nothing at all. He was cherry picking it up big time when Froch was 20-0 and JC fought Peter Manfredo. That wasn't a fight. That was a mugging.

Froch fought the upstart tyro, Groves, when GG had only 19 fights. They were the biggest fights the UK ever saw... Froch-Calzaghe would have been bigger.

Peter Manfredo was a bad fight (though beat Froch in the ams), no one has said any different, but he had a profile in the states which the at the time unknown (despite your lies) Froch didn't. Froch Calzaghe would never have done anything like the numbers Groves did with Froch, Froch was unknown to the public and that's a fact. You can't just say it would have because it wouldn't have sold anything like that at the time.

[davie]

remember talking about Froch to a lad I worked from from Nottingham. He thought he was the mutts nuts.
I watched him in an early British title fight around the 16 fight mark, before he started calling out Joe. He looked nothing special, he was crude, uncoordinated and made fundamental mistakes that he carried through out his career. He had that Nathan Cleverly trait of occasionally defending with his face, just because he could
I told my mate, he'd probably struggle when he reached world level.
Little did I know at the time that he was a hard bastard

Point being, I think a few had high hopes for Carl, but it was far from being a stick on that he'd reach where he did
At the point he was calling Joe's name, he'd beat guys like Mcghee, Dodson and a faded Robin Reid. Joe had cleared out the SMW division that he'd dominated for years and moved up to fight a couple big money fights in America

Very true....Froch's early career was not always stellar and he did look dead basic at times, more than a few folk thought he might find a level below world title rank and mainly because he was a tad predictable.

Can remember the truly horrible fight with Matthew Barney and thinking that someone like Benn or even Calzaghe would have found a way to get Barney out of there. Barney stunk plenty of places out...it was almost his calling card...but I did think that and a couple of early performances did not go well for Carl.

But as you said....Froch was made from titanium, both a mentally and physically hard man and over the years McCracken improved his boxing no end. He boxed Abraham beautifully and was bang on when he fought Kessler again.

Froch's book is well worth a read by the way....he wanted the Calzaghe fight badly and did believe he'd win (Carl was not a doubter) but in amongst the annoyance there is a tacit understanding that Joe was at the point where the dollar fights were the right business option.

Joe would have beat Froch at his best

Against an inexperienced Froch, who was not yet the finished article (not the guy that out-boxed AA, dismatled Bute or of Kessler II) would have got destroyed by Joe. The late career Joe that beat Kessler and Hopkins and dismantled Lacy would possibly have stopped Froch on his feet

[Boxerbeetle]

Kalan,

You earlier claimed Lacy was unproven and now suggest Froch had proven himself by beating and older version of Robin Reid than the one Jeff Lacy fought and beat. I hate it when people try to change the past on here, I suspect more than likely you had no idea who carl froch was in 2007, especially after you suggesting he would have sold tickets like he did against Groves. Also worth pointing out that Kessler beat Froch.

I'm not suggesting anything. Calzaghe-Lacy was big because people are suckers for hype. Calzaghe struggled with Reid -- so it's a selling point for sure.

But Froch was a much better fighter than Lacy... I knew exactly who Froch was before he had 10 fights... I knew he was going to be big. You could tell he had the sauce by watching him and Lacy didn't have it---no smarts. When Froch got another win as British Empire Champion he would call out Calz -- like Groves called out Froch. Ring magazine would have a headline "Froch wins by KO, calls out Calzaghe" so I think a lot of Americans were following him. He was on American TV knocking guys out. Certainly NOBODY heard of most of Calzaghe's pathetic challengers. Most of them did nothing at all. He was cherry picking it up big time when Froch was 20-0 and JC fought Peter Manfredo. That wasn't a fight. That was a mugging.

Froch fought the upstart tyro, Groves, when GG had only 19 fights. They were the biggest fights the UK ever saw... Froch-Calzaghe would have been bigger.

Froch-Calzaghe would have been absolutely nowhere near as big as Froch-Groves. Anyone who genuinely followed both fighters at the time would know that was a crazy statement to make.

[Kalan]

You have nothing to base that ridiculous statement on... Froch had been British Empire Champion longer and had beaten better known fighters... He even had more fights than Groves. If Froch-Calzaghe was made you wouldn't have been able to get a ticket... A certain instant sellout.

[Covfefe]

You have nothing to base that ridiculous statement on... Froch had been British Empire Champion longer and had beaten better known fighters... He even had more fights than Groves. If Froch-Calzaghe was made you wouldn't have been able to get a ticket... A certain instant sellout.

Erm, we were alive at the time and are British fight fans. We're not making up our opinions just looking at boxrec like you. Froch simply did not have the same profile, even he would tell you that. Ask anyone on the British board if at any point during Joe's career he'd have sold 80k in Wembley fighting Froch. It just would not have happened.

[Covfefe]

Froch-Groves didn't even sell like that till a rematch was demanded by the fans!

[Kalan]

Against an inexperienced Froch, who was not yet the finished article (not the guy that out-boxed AA, dismatled Bute or of Kessler II) would have got destroyed by Joe. The late career Joe that beat Kessler and Hopkins and dismantled Lacy would possibly have stopped Froch on his feet

Come on. That's nonsense and you know it. Calzaghe wasn't a big puncher. He couldn't stop Kabary Salem in his 38th fight and got knocked down and point deducted for head butting in that fight.. In his next fight Salem was knocked out by Lucian Bute who had 13 fights at the time.. You're forgetting how hard Calzaghe got hit and dropped at times... His head was out there for the taking like Ken Norton's...but he just never fought a big puncher and Norton fought a few of them.. It's a matter of styles.. Carl would tear his head off like he did Bute and Groves.. Calzaghe couldn't even stop Charles Brewer, Evan Ashira, and Miguel Jeminez and he certainly didn't destroy them... Froch was one of the toughest Super Middleweights who ever stepped in a ring.

[Kalan]

Froch-Groves didn't even sell like that till a rematch was demanded by the fans!

They were sellouts... After the 1st one they realized they needed a much bigger venue with more seats.

[Covfefe]

Froch-Groves didn't even sell like that till a rematch was demanded by the fans!

They were sellouts... After the 1st one they realized they needed a much bigger venue with more seats.

No it wasn't! Why do you make things up?

The first fight was in Manchester, my home town. The biggest crowd ever for a fight in that arena was Mike Tyson - Julius Francis. Groves Froch is the fifth fight on the list with less than 19k.

[gp.]

You have nothing to base that ridiculous statement on... Froch had been British Empire Champion longer and had beaten better known fighters... He even had more fights than Groves. If Froch-Calzaghe was made you wouldn't have been able to get a ticket... A certain instant sellout.

This is nonsensically absurd. Calzaghe was never that popular in the UK as a whole, Wales apart, and Froch at the time was unknown outside Nottingham. Nobody ever knows who the Commonwealth champion is; it hasn't been important since the 1970s. That's fact. Why are you arguing with it? Even if we allow you had seen Froch at the time and thought he was good, how on earth would you know how popular they were in the UK?

[davie]

Against an inexperienced Froch, who was not yet the finished article (not the guy that out-boxed AA, dismatled Bute or of Kessler II) would have got destroyed by Joe. The late career Joe that beat Kessler and Hopkins and dismantled Lacy would possibly have stopped Froch on his feet

Come on. That's nonsense and you know it. Calzaghe wasn't a big puncher. He couldn't stop Kabary Salem in his 38th fight and got knocked down and point deducted for head butting in that fight.. In his next fight Salem was knocked out by Lucian Bute who had 13 fights at the time.. You're forgetting how hard Calzaghe got hit and dropped at times... His head was out there for the taking like Ken Norton's...but he just never fought a big puncher and Norton fought a few of them.. It's a matter of styles.. Carl would tear his head off like he did Bute and Groves.. Calzaghe couldn't even stop Charles Brewer, Evan Ashira, and Miguel Jeminez and he certainly didn't destroy them... Froch was one of the toughest Super Middleweights who ever stepped in a ring.

I'm not sure if you perhaps picked me up wrong.
Prime for prime, ie if you matched the Joe that destroyed Lacy vs the Froch that destroyed Bute, or if you matched the versions of either man that beat Kessler, then I think you have a great fight on your hands and it would go the distance. Both men peaked towards the latter end of their career and I think you'd struggle to find any man that would stop either of the 2. But I favour Joe, who was technically the better fighter.

But at the time that Froch was calling out Calzaghe, the Carl Froch that was still fighting domestic level, around 2007, he'd have got taken apart. As Bodyshot3 rightly points out "over the years McCracken improved his boxing no end". Back then Froch was a long way from the fighter he became and would have been comprehensively taken apart by a Joe who was operating at the very highest level at that point in time.
I don't think many people in history could have knocked out Froch (any version of Froch) but I think Joe could have given him such a convincingly one sided thrashing, the ref might have had to step in in the latter rounds, as I said, he might have been able to stop him on his feet.
That's not prime for prime, that's the fighters that were operating in 2007

See this is where you expose yourself Kalan. I read a lot of what you talk about on here and without a deep knowledge of some of the fighters who we discuss I am not fully armed with the knowledge to dispute your confident claims. You clearly have a deep knowledge of the sport but as the accusations is regularly levelled at you, are you knowledgeable from reading about it or from actual memory of having witnessed it.

See here's where I can talk from actual knowledge, experience and memory. I followed these fighters as a fan and spectator and watched every punch they threw from early on and I can say, like some of the other British boxing fan on this thread, with some confidence, that you don't have a fornicating clue what you are talking about.
You either weren't watching it back then and you think you can just make it up based on what you think you know and hope that if you say it with enough confidence you won't be challenged or you have a very short memory and are filling in the blanks based on what you remember from Froch's latter career.
I suspect it's the first and you are a complete chancer who reads records and tries to pass yourself off as some kind of expert. (unless of course you did see it all and you just can't judge for shit)

Carl Froch was very rough round the edges in his early career. A prospect, yes and a tough SOB but he was no where near ready for Joe Calzaghe. He was never a technical genius but his boxing skills and fundamentals certainly improved as his career moved on but in those early days he was fairly basic and made a lot of basic errors, he was crude, ungainly and unbalanced and his chin dragged him through more than one contest.
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that a 35 year old world class Calzaghe embarrasses the 30 year old (and still operating at domestic class) Froch

[Ambling Alp II]

Never understood why on earth this was considered a big fight at the time.

[Kalan]

Against an inexperienced Froch, who was not yet the finished article (not the guy that out-boxed AA, dismatled Bute or of Kessler II) would have got destroyed by Joe. The late career Joe that beat Kessler and Hopkins and dismantled Lacy would possibly have stopped Froch on his feet

Come on. That's nonsense and you know it. Calzaghe wasn't a big puncher. He couldn't stop Kabary Salem in his 38th fight and got knocked down and point deducted for head butting in that fight.. In his next fight Salem was knocked out by Lucian Bute who had 13 fights at the time.. You're forgetting how hard Calzaghe got hit and dropped at times... His head was out there for the taking like Ken Norton's...but he just never fought a big puncher and Norton fought a few of them.. It's a matter of styles.. Carl would tear his head off like he did Bute and Groves.. Calzaghe couldn't even stop Charles Brewer, Evan Ashira, and Miguel Jeminez and he certainly didn't destroy them... Froch was one of the toughest Super Middleweights who ever stepped in a ring.

I'm not sure if you perhaps picked me up wrong. Prime for prime, ie if you matched the Joe that destroyed Lacy vs the Froch that destroyed Bute, or if you matched the versions of either man that beat Kessler, then I think you have a great fight on your hands and it would go the distance. Both men peaked towards the latter end of their career and I think you'd struggle to find any man that would stop either of the 2. But I favour Joe, who was technically the better fighter ... I read a lot of what you talk about on here and without a deep knowledge of some of the fighters who we discuss I am not fully armed with the knowledge to dispute your confident claims. You clearly have a deep knowledge of the sport but as the accusations is regularly levelled at you, are you knowledgeable from reading about it or from actual memory of having witnessed it? ... Carl Froch was very rough round the edges in his early career. A prospect, yes and a tough SOB but he was no where near ready for Joe Calzaghe. He was never a technical genius but his boxing skills and fundamentals certainly improved as his career moved on but in those early days he was fairly basic and made a lot of basic errors, he was crude, ungainly and unbalanced and his chin dragged him through more than one contest.
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that a 35 year old world class Calzaghe embarrasses the 30 year old (and still operating at domestic class) Froch

You asked where my "deep knowledge" as you call it comes from... It comes from having boxed amateur and pro and from training hundreds of boxers. I can spot flaws in boxers that most people here will never see in a hundred years. I prefer not to give my name because I want my posts to stand on there own merit. If people have insight and intelligence they'll grasp the content in my posts. If they're trolls, haters, puffers, fakes, ignoramuses and not very bright, they'll never understand my posts anyway -- and I could GAF less what they think to be honest.

But to get back to the topic... Neither Calzaghe nor Froch were great technical boxers such as Kovalev or Ward - but Calzaghe had more flaws than Froch.. Calz led with his head and even got knocked down by Kabary Salem in his 38th fight. He was point deducted for head butting in that fight as well---which happens these days when boxers push their head into you---and it should happen more often because it's not Queenberry. Calz won by decision, but In his next fight Kabary got knocked out by Lucian Bute who had only 13 fights... Bute was not a real good boxer or puncher, but he went undefeated until he met a puncher (Froch) because his opposition was as weak and calculated as Calzaghe's comp. When Bute was matched with a superior puncher he got smashed -- and I know the same thing would have happened to Calazaghe.. He flagrantly put his head out there and a great puncher was going to take him out... And forget the experience.. How many good boxers had Foreman met when he crushed Frazier?

I was a very early critic of Norton and Frazier and was always extremely critical of Henry Armstrong -- or any boxer who gave you his head to shoot at.. I slammed Sergio Martinez and Wilfred Benitez who didn't do it nearly as flagrantly, but they did it.. No matter how fast you are, it's a wrong headed approach to Boxing.. Calzaghe was decked really hard a couple times, but he had a great set of whiskers like Frazier and Armstrong.. He was probably the fastest boxer who employed that particular style -- but if he ever met a puncher he would have been stopped like the rest of them.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Mayweather/corrales, hearns/cuevas, qawi/Saad, Jones/toney, Chavez/Rosario

[Bodyshot3]

Hatton marching straight into and then over Tszyu springs to mind.

Ricky was very rated, undefeated and already an absolute menace-bully in that division even as a contender...and Tszyu was meant to be the bloke who stopped that march and who might actually shove Ricky right back into the chasing pack.

I am still astonished by that fight - Hatton's confidence, speed and smart aggression was superb - and although Kostya went a long way into the fight he was being bossed in a way that was largely unthinkable. Stuff like that did not happen to Tszyu.

[Kalan]

Hatton marching straight into and then over Tszyu springs to mind.

Ricky was very rated, undefeated and already an absolute menace-bully in that division even as a contender...and Tszyu was meant to be the bloke who stopped that march and who might actually shove Ricky right back into the chasing pack.

I am still astonished by that fight - Hatton's confidence, speed and smart aggression was superb - and although Kostya went a long way into the fight he was being bossed in a way that was largely unthinkable. Stuff like that did not happen to Tszyu.

Forget that... Tszyu was done... He had been out 2 years before his previous fight rehabbing his shoulder and stuff.. His left shoulder was gone.. The real Ricky Hatton is the ass-beaten bag who showed up for the Mayweather and Pacquiao fights -- and got beaten to trash and knocked out both times.

[davie]

You asked where my "deep knowledge" as you call it comes from... It comes from having boxed amateur and pro and from training hundreds of boxers. I can spot flaws in boxers that most people here will never see in a hundred years. I prefer not to give my name because I want my posts to stand on there own merit. If people have insight and intelligence they'll grasp the content in my posts. If they're trolls, haters, puffers, fakes, ignoramuses and not very bright, they'll never understand my posts anyway -- and I could GAF less what they think to be honest.

Oh my god, you're Teddy Atlas, aren't you?

[DareTBG]

Loved this fight, I never seen such a one sided beating in my life, fair enough Lacy never went on to become anything special but the win for Calzaghe eventually gave him the worldwide attention he deserved

It was more of a one sided schooling than a brutal beating. Although Calzaghe did beat him up quite some. I've definitely seen much worse beatings though. One of the worst beatings that has took place in a British ring is Benny Lynch vs Jackie Brown II. It looks bad enough on the black and white film. Imagine how much more brutal it would look in colour with modern camera work with the close ups and slow motion.

[Kalan]

You asked where my "deep knowledge" as you call it comes from... It comes from having boxed amateur and pro and from training hundreds of boxers. I can spot flaws in boxers that most people here will never see in a hundred years. I prefer not to give my name because I want my posts to stand on there own merit. If people have insight and intelligence they'll grasp the content in my posts. If they're trolls, haters, puffers, fakes, ignoramuses and not very bright, they'll never understand my posts anyway -- and I could GAF less what they think to be honest.

Oh my god, you're Teddy Atlas, aren't you?

I know you're kidding... Teddy Atlas is a real piece of sh!t who doesn't know what he's talking about... He picked Judah to beat Mayweather.. He said Cotto would beat Canelo because Canelo was badly weight drained and "killed himself making the weight" But even watching the weigh-in on TV I could see Canelo was fine for Cotto.. He was a little drained for Mayweather -- and I said before that one he was parched and would be an easy victim.. I know what I'm talking about and Atlas just throws tons of crap against the wall to see what sticks.

[Covfefe]

You asked where my "deep knowledge" as you call it comes from... It comes from having boxed amateur and pro and from training hundreds of boxers. I can spot flaws in boxers that most people here will never see in a hundred years. I prefer not to give my name because I want my posts to stand on there own merit. If people have insight and intelligence they'll grasp the content in my posts. If they're trolls, haters, puffers, fakes, ignoramuses and not very bright, they'll never understand my posts anyway -- and I could GAF less what they think to be honest.

Oh my god, you're Teddy Atlas, aren't you?

I know you're kidding... Teddy Atlas is a real piece of sh!t who doesn't know what he's talking about... He picked Judah to beat Mayweather.. He said Cotto would beat Canelo because Canelo was badly weight drained and "killed himself making the weight" But even watching the weigh-in on TV I could see Canelo was fine for Cotto.. He was a little drained for Mayweather -- and I said before that one he was parched and would be an easy victim.. I know what I'm talking about and Atlas just throws tons of crap against the wall to see what sticks.

[Kalan]

Up your nose with a fire hose darkie maybe you're teddy atlas

[Covfefe]

Up your nose with a fire hose darkie maybe you're teddy atlas

No, I just don't believe a word you say.

[Kalan]

I could GAF less

[Covfefe]

I could GAF less

So you do care?

[Ruthless-RKO]

Sorry for stealing this from the lad that usually does these

But I had a pertinent question for all you historians

Have you ever seen a more one sided thrashing in what was supposed to be a fighters most challenging and evenly matched opponent to date?

If you're on about me, don't worry about it..