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Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 18:53
by Enlightened-One
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 18:52
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 18:50
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 18:32
There is no proof, because Canelo didn't provide a hair sample. If he was really clean, he would have done that and not get suspended at all. Him not being enrolled in WBC Clean Boxing program is another sign of cheating. Changes in his body too.
Have you read the WADA code?
Any testing results obtained from hair, nails, oral fluid or other biological material shall not be used to counter Adverse Analytical Findings or Atypical Findings...
Interesting...so WADA doesn't believe in false positives? or am I reading this incorrectly?
Hair samples are supposedly an unreliable barometer to gauge whether an athlete is "clean" or not.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 18:57
by oogiebe
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 18:53
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 18:52
Hair samples are supposedly an unreliable barometer to gauge whether an athlete is "clean" or not.
It's counter intuitive to forensics with regards to poisoning and drug testing. Not saying you're not quoting correctly, just that the code is rather questionable. Hair provides a 'timeline', deposits in the hair as it grows. Hmmmm...Hair in other sports and on the job testing is one of the most 'reliable' tests.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:05
by boxing_rocks
Hair samples often produce varying quantative results for people with different hair color and thickness, but they are helpful to determine timeline of consumption, i.e. if it was random exposure or consistent consumption.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:07
by oogiebe
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:05
Hair samples often produce varying quantative results for people with different hair color and thickness, but they are helpful to determine timeline of consumption, i.e. if it was random exposure or consistent consumption.
That's my point, so why (if you know) would it not be admissible, or am I missing something (again).
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:17
by boxing_rocks
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:07
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:05
Hair samples often produce varying quantative results for people with different hair color and thickness, but they are helpful to determine timeline of consumption, i.e. if it was random exposure or consistent consumption.
That's my point, so why (if you know) would it not be admissible, or am I missing something (again).
WADA is all about formalities. Variable results is a red flag for them. However, a hair test proving that it was a one time use (which likely wasn't the case) would be a good argument at NSAC hearing and even more importantly, in the eyes of the boxing community. Enrolling in Donaire like voluntary testing would be too.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:18
by Enlightened-One
The WADA code and its rules weren't just written for boxing.
If they deem the results of testing hair samples as being unreliable, then we shouldn't expect any athlete to undergo further testing that is redundant in nature, since it won't achieve anything.
The rules are clear on this.
We cannot accuse Canelo of trying to conceal his guilt, simply because he hasn't submitted a hair sample for testing, because it's utterly pointless.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:19
by oogiebe
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:18
The WADA code and its rules weren't just written for boxing.
If they deem the results of testing hair samples as being unreliable, then we shouldn't expect any athlete to undergo further testing that is redundant in nature, since it won't achieve anything.
The rules are clear on this.
We cannot accuse Canelo of trying to conceal his guilt, simply because he hasn't submitted a hair sample for testing, because it's utterly pointless.
Why pointless if he claims he ate tainted meat, a hair test would (if he's lying) prove he was taking the PED for a longer period of time.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:25
by Enlightened-One
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:19
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:18
The WADA code and its rules weren't just written for boxing.
If they deem the results of testing hair samples as being unreliable, then we shouldn't expect any athlete to undergo further testing that is redundant in nature, since it won't achieve anything.
The rules are clear on this.
We cannot accuse Canelo of trying to conceal his guilt, simply because he hasn't submitted a hair sample for testing, because it's utterly pointless.
Why pointless if he claims he ate tainted meat, a hair test would (if he's lying) prove he was taking the PED for a longer period of time.
When a fighter agrees to undergo VADA-administered PED testing, he also has to understand and abide by their rules, which are ultimately dictated by the WADA code.
The WADA code clearly states that hair samples cannot be used to counter adverse analytical findings.
Canelo was tested according to that protocol, which he signed-up for.
Simply put: hair samples are inadmissible.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:29
by oogiebe
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:25
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:19
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:18
The WADA code and its rules weren't just written for boxing.
If they deem the results of testing hair samples as being unreliable, then we shouldn't expect any athlete to undergo further testing that is redundant in nature, since it won't achieve anything.
The rules are clear on this.
We cannot accuse Canelo of trying to conceal his guilt, simply because he hasn't submitted a hair sample for testing, because it's utterly pointless.
Why pointless if he claims he ate tainted meat, a hair test would (if he's lying) prove he was taking the PED for a longer period of time.
When a fighter agrees to undergo VADA-administered PED testing, he also has to understand and abide by their rules, which are ultimately dictated by the WADA code.
The WADA code clearly states that hair samples cannot be used to counter adverse analytical findings.
Canelo was tested according to that protocol, which he signed-up for.
Simply put: hair samples are inadmissible.
ok
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:38
by lazboy
IF CANELO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS SITUATION, BOXING AND HIS INTEGRITY...HE NEEDS TO ENROL IN THE VADA CLEAN BOXING PROGRAM!
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:55
by Enlightened-One
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:38
IF CANELO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS SITUATION, BOXING AND HIS INTEGRITY...HE NEEDS TO ENROL IN THE VADA CLEAN BOXING PROGRAM!
Mauricio Sulaiman claims that Canelo has been enrolled in the Clean Boxing Program for "many years."
Also, the WBC and Canelo patched up their differences a couple of months ago, with Alvarez finally agreeing to compete for their belt against Golovkin. It would have been a mandatory requirement.
The VADA website even confirms that he's part of their program.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 19:58
by boxing_rocks
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:38
IF CANELO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS SITUATION, BOXING AND HIS INTEGRITY...HE NEEDS TO ENROL IN THE VADA CLEAN BOXING PROGRAM!
Yep, if he was clean, he would've enrolled in all year around voluntary random testing with VADA to prove that it was one time use of tainted meat.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:01
by lazboy
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:55
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:38
IF CANELO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS SITUATION, BOXING AND HIS INTEGRITY...HE NEEDS TO ENROL IN THE VADA CLEAN BOXING PROGRAM!
Mauricio Sulaiman claims that Canelo has been enrolled in the Clean Boxing Program for "many years."
Also, the WBC and Canelo patched up their differences a couple of months ago, with Alvarez finally agreeing to compete for their belt against Golovkin. It would have been a mandatory requirement.
The VADA website even confirms that he's part of their program.
THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION. IS THE PROGRAM YOU DETAIL THE SAME PROGRAM THAT ADMINISTERS RANDOM DRUG TESTING OUTSIDE OF COMPETITION?
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:02
by boxing_rocks
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:55
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:38
IF CANELO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS SITUATION, BOXING AND HIS INTEGRITY...HE NEEDS TO ENROL IN THE VADA CLEAN BOXING PROGRAM!
Mauricio Sulaiman claims that Canelo has been enrolled in the Clean Boxing Program for "many years."
Also, the WBC and Canelo patched up their differences a couple of months ago, with Alvarez finally agreeing to compete for their belt against Golovkin. It would have been a mandatory requirement.
The VADA website even confirms that he's part of their program.
No, he wasn't, and Sulaiman carefully avoided answering Montero's questions regarding reasons of that. The tests he failed we're his first tests ever in Mexico.
Also, there is a big difference between underfunded WBC program and voluntary Donaire style testing.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:09
by Enlightened-One
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 20:02
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:55
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:38
IF CANELO IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS SITUATION, BOXING AND HIS INTEGRITY...HE NEEDS TO ENROL IN THE VADA CLEAN BOXING PROGRAM!
Mauricio Sulaiman claims that Canelo has been enrolled in the Clean Boxing Program for "many years."
Also, the WBC and Canelo patched up their differences a couple of months ago, with Alvarez finally agreeing to compete for their belt against Golovkin. It would have been a mandatory requirement.
The VADA website even confirms that he's part of their program.
No, he wasn't, and Sulaiman carefully avoided answering Montero's questions regarding reasons of that. The tests he failed we're his first tests ever in Mexico.
Also, there is a big difference between underfunded WBC program and voluntary Donaire style testing.
I'm not supporting Sulaiman's claims, merely repeating them.
However, it's impossible to deny that the VADA website clearly lists Canelo as being enrolled in their program.
Google it if you don't believe me.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:25
by p4p1
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:25
oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:19
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 19:18
The WADA code and its rules weren't just written for boxing.
If they deem the results of testing hair samples as being unreliable, then we shouldn't expect any athlete to undergo further testing that is redundant in nature, since it won't achieve anything.
The rules are clear on this.
We cannot accuse Canelo of trying to conceal his guilt, simply because he hasn't submitted a hair sample for testing, because it's utterly pointless.
Why pointless if he claims he ate tainted meat, a hair test would (if he's lying) prove he was taking the PED for a longer period of time.
When a fighter agrees to undergo VADA-administered PED testing, he also has to understand and abide by their rules, which are ultimately dictated by the WADA code.
The WADA code clearly states that hair samples cannot be used to counter adverse analytical findings.
Canelo was tested according to that protocol, which he signed-up for.
Simply put: hair samples are inadmissible.
Hair tests are also quite easy to get past. I remember here in Australia a footballer had all types of recreational drug use issues and rumours. He took a short brake from footy but when he came back the AFL told him to play he had to pass a hair test. He had mid length hair for his entire career but before the hair test could be taken he had number 2 haircut all over meaning the hair sample could only be taken from the point he assumed he would test clean from rather than the previous months of hair growth that he normally had. Canelo normally has short hair so it would probably be a pretty useless test,
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:36
by boxing_rocks
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:41
by boxing_rocks
p4p1 wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 20:25
Hair tests are also quite easy to get past. I remember here in Australia a footballer had all types of recreational drug use issues and rumours. He took a short brake from footy but when he came back the AFL told him to play he had to pass a hair test. He had mid length hair for his entire career but before the hair test could be taken he had number 2 haircut all over meaning the hair sample could only be taken from the point he assumed he would test clean from rather than the previous months of hair growth that he normally had. Canelo normally has short hair so it would probably be a pretty useless test,
Nice rumor. They are testing a follicle though, so cutting hair will not affect results.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 20:42
by oogiebe
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 20:41
p4p1 wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 20:25
Hair tests are also quite easy to get past. I remember here in Australia a footballer had all types of recreational drug use issues and rumours. He took a short brake from footy but when he came back the AFL told him to play he had to pass a hair test. He had mid length hair for his entire career but before the hair test could be taken he had number 2 haircut all over meaning the hair sample could only be taken from the point he assumed he would test clean from rather than the previous months of hair growth that he normally had. Canelo normally has short hair so it would probably be a pretty useless test,
Nice rumor. They are testing a follicle though, so cutting hair will not affect results.
So I'm right then. Thank you for clarifying.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 21:50
by boxing_rocks
https://www.BS.com/vada-canelo ... um=twitter
VADA: Canelo Not Currently Enrolled in Testing Program
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 22:04
by lazboy
WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED??!!!!!!!!
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 18 Apr 2018, 23:45
by tiny_acres
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 22:04
WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED??!!!!!!!!
More reason to dislike this bastard
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 19 Apr 2018, 01:53
by Ruthless-RKO
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 19 Apr 2018, 03:42
by Enlightened-One
lazboy wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 22:04
WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED??!!!!!!!!
VADA welcomes Saul “Canelo” Alvarez back to our program as he prepares for his 5/5/18 rematch against Gennady Golovkin.
This is what VADA's official website states (click on the above hyperlink to access it). Also, use the "Way Back Machine" website to confirm when this was originally posted (i.e. before the article you quoted was published).
The out-of-competition drug testing was definitely administered by the Voluntary Anti-Doping Agency (VADA) and Dr. Margaret Goodman informed all interested parties of Canelo's infraction using the following letter:
And this resulted in Golden Boy releasing the following statement:
"
As part of the voluntary testing program that Canelo Alvarez insisted on ahead of his May 5 fight, one of his results came back positive for trace levels of clenbuterol…”
Mauricio Sulaiman also claims that Canelo has been enrolled in the Clean Boxing Program for "many years."
It seems that Dr. Margaret Goodman's claim is either wrong or VADA's own "official" website, Mauricio Sulaiman, GBP and
even her own fũckîng words that she wrote down are incorrect.
Re: CANELO back in september ?
Posted: 19 Apr 2018, 04:47
by BitPlayer
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:45
There's a few people upset about Canelo only receiving a six month's suspension, but isn't that the typical punishment for Clenbuterol (i.e. Lucas Browne and Erkan Teper)?
I'm not an expert in this subject matter, so I'm genuinely curious. I am not asking a rhetorical question.
Teper was on everthing under the sun, not just clen. Stupidly leneant.