BoxRec

Actually, Fury struggled pretty hard against Cunningham. I have to wonder if Fury's weakness is athletic midgets instead of big, stiff guys.

I think a non-injured Haye/Fury is 50-50 from around this time. I wish the fight would've happened for sure.

I do think that the fight would look very similar to the Haye - Klitschko fight. The size difference would be very significant, and Haye even struggled to land cleanly on the cumbersome Valuev. I think it would be close on the cards.

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 04:27 I do think that the fight would look very similar to the Haye - Klitschko fight. The size difference would be very significant, and Haye even struggled to land cleanly on the cumbersome Valuev. I think it would be close on the cards.

No way. Klitschko had enormous power that Haye needed to be weary of. Fury doesn't have that kind of power. Haye could get away with mistakes a lot better.

You do have a point with the Valuev fight, though.

It's not so much a power thing, more so a height and reach thing. Haye in his prime was good at getting in and out, but landing concussive punches on someone almost a foot taller is by no means an easy task.

Considering the injuries started to pile up on Haye prior to the Klitschko fight... I think Haye would have literally thrown his shoulder out against Fury and of gotten kayoed.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:24 Considering the injuries started to pile up on Haye prior to the Klitschko fight... I think Haye would have literally thrown his shoulder out against Fury and of gotten kayoed.

The OP said no injuries before or during the fight.

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:26

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:24 Considering the injuries started to pile up on Haye prior to the Klitschko fight... I think Haye would have literally thrown his shoulder out against Fury and of gotten kayoed.

The OP said no injuries before or during the fight.

Hmm... I don't like such speculation... Fact is Haye was falling apart prior to Klitschko and postponed twice against Fury... But let's assume he didn't spar with one week left to go which caused the first postponment (cut over the eye)... He'd cancel just weeks later because he blew his arm out of socket... Haye threw right hands so fast, so hard and so reckless that I think had he fought Fury he'd of had trouble hitting the target and wrench his arm while desperately trying to do damage.

But I'll humor you. Fury I believe would have eeked out the decision. Good luck hitting a man nearly 7'0" and when he leans away is 8' away from you. Haye would take risks, yes, but he'd eat some heavy shots. People don't see Fury as a big puncher, but he's got a 70% stoppage rate and 250 pounds barreling at you is going to hurt a 6'2"-6'3" 210-220 man no matter how chiseled he is. It's not easy hitting Fury clean, even at that stage of his career. Whenever he was hit flush, like against Cunningham, it was because he was dicking around rather than being serious.

Haye went to war with Chisora. Grueling fight. Fury, looked unmarked in both his matches with Chisora, winning both relatively comfortable. Haye could do nothing with Klitschko, whereas Fury befuddled him. Haye's best wins at Heavyweight I have no doubts that Fury could have easily beaten Barrett, Valuev, Ruiz and Harrison. So what does Haye have that could have been really a threat to Fury? Popularity is about it.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39Hmm... I don't like such speculation... Fact is Haye was falling apart prior to Klitschko and postponed twice against Fury...

This is the criteria that we've been asked to use when evaluating the outcome of this fight. We have to use it or refrain from submitting comments on this thread.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39Haye threw right hands so fast, so hard and so reckless that I think had he fought Fury he'd of had trouble hitting the target and wrench his arm while desperately trying to do damage.

Possible, but based on the criteria we've been asked to evaluate this fight, we have to assume that the Hayemaker didn't have shoulder problems, which means it probably wouldn't have happened.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39Haye would take risks, yes, but he'd eat some heavy shots.

David Haye had a decent chin and was more durable than nearly every fighter that Fury had ever faced at that time. The Hayemaker would have also landed his own heavy bombs.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39It's not easy hitting Fury clean, even at that stage of his career. Whenever he was hit flush, like against Cunningham, it was because he was dicking around rather than being serious.

I believe that David Haye would have thrown a lot of shots against Fury, because Tyson wasn't as heavy-handed as Klitschko, which means that some of Hayemakers bombs would have landed. Tyson’s lateral movement and unorthodox stance often means he’s off-balance, which could have resulted in ‘The Gypsy King’ touching the deck at some point.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39Haye went to war with Chisora. Grueling fight. Fury, looked unmarked in both his matches with Chisora, winning both relatively comfortable.

Nobody has stopped Chisora as quickly as David Haye has done. Styles makes fights and Fury could never have KO'd Dereck as quickly either. Similarly, the Hayemaker probably couldn't have out-boxed Chisora as effectively as Fury did. Styles makes fights - different fighters, means different styles, so I'm not sure if this point is valid.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39Haye could do nothing with Klitschko, whereas Fury befuddled him.

David Haye faced a 35-year-old prime version of Wladimir Klitschko that subsequently managed to make eight more successful defences of his world titles and was still being trained by Emmanuel Steward.

In stark contrast, the version of Wladimir Klitschko that Tyson Fury managed defeat was on the cusp of turning forty years of age and also had a lot of personal problems occurring outside the ring (i.e. his partner, Hayden Panettiere, was suffering from post-partum depression, postponed their wedding and had only just checked into rehab).

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39Haye's best wins at Heavyweight I have no doubts that Fury could have easily beaten Barrett, Valuev, Ruiz and Harrison.

Apart from Tyson's victory over Klitschko, Fury's resume (at heavyweight) is no better than Haye's.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 05:39So what does Haye have that could have been really a threat to Fury? Popularity is about it.

For the record, whilst armed with the benefit of hindsight, I probably would have favoured Tyson to score a very close decision victory over David Haye in 2014, but I don’t have a lot of confidence in my prediction and I also I feel some of the points you’ve used in your argument are flawed.

The fact is though, most of the forum thought that the Hayemaker would have beaten Fury when their bouts were originally announced four years or so ago, probably because Tyson’s form was less-than-stellar around that timeframe, whilst Haye was still performing at elite-level.

Therefore, even though I favour Fury to emerge victorious, it’s still a 50-50 fight and none of us truly know how badly Klitschko underperformed when he faced ‘The Gypsy King’, but we do know the Ukraine’s personal problems were well-documented around that timeframe.

So in a way, Tyson Fury is still unproven. He may end up being the ‘Real Deal’ or he could simply be another iteration of Buster Douglas, by being fortunate enough to overcome a dead-cert first-ballot Hall-of-Famer on one of their worst “off-night’s” of their careers.

If Fury beats Wilder, then we’ll know the answer to this question, but if he gets bombed-out, then Tyson was KO’d by one of David Haye’s long-time sparring partners.

If Fury beats Wilder, then we’ll know the answer to this question, but if he gets bombed-out, then Tyson was KO’d by one of David Haye’s long-time sparring partners.

I'll focus on this. Particularly the second half of the paragraph. IF Fury loses to Wilder by knockout--- it depends when and how in my mind.

If it takes Wilder into the late rounds to do it, then I think it speaks more of Wilder's limitations than it does Fury's shortcomings. If it takes you eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve rounds to put away a guy who was 400 pounds about two years ago and hadn't fought in three years (against anyone worthwhile anyways) then I have little doubt that AJ would probably beat Wilder.

But it also shows me that IF it takes that long for Wilder to do it, that he'd of never touched the 2015 version of Fury. Though I do find it funny you somehow think if Wilder wins, that somehow validates that Haye would win against Fury in 2014.

Haye nailed him repeatedly in sparring, etc. I think Haye even dropped Wilder. But let's not forget at that point Wilder wasn't the WBC champion and was hardly a contender. So why wouldn't Haye knock him about at that point?

Now if Wilder kayos Fury fast, then I would probably give him props--- however, at the same time, if that happens isn't it more likely to argue that Fury came back too fast?

Fury has everything to gain and Wilder has almost nothing to gain. This fight has given him more exposure than ever, and probably his biggest payday, but if he wins is it really that great? If he loses then how do you come back from that when you had every advantage?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19I'll focus on this. Particularly the second half of the paragraph. IF Fury loses to Wilder by knockout--- it depends when and how in my mind.

Agreed. It doesn’t make my sentence you quoted inaccurate though.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19But it also shows me that IF it takes that long for Wilder to do it, that he'd of never touched the 2015 version of Fury. Though I do find it funny you somehow think if Wilder wins, that somehow validates that Haye would win against Fury in 2014.

I understand the reason why you’ve said that, but I didn’t actually say that and that’s not what I meant either.

I don’t believe that Wilder has improved his boxing fundamentals since his title reign commenced at the start of 2015 and he was Haye’s sparring partner a little over a year prior. So the Hayemaker would have sparred against a near optimal version of Deontay.

The perception we have about Tyson Fury’s ability is entirely reliant on what he achieved against Wladimir Klitschko. We don’t truly know if his victory was due to his superiority over the Ukraine legend or if it was due to a combination of Klitschko’s age and well-documented personal problems.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19Fury has everything to gain and Wilder has almost nothing to gain. This fight has given him more exposure than ever, and probably his biggest payday, but if he wins is it really that great? If he loses then how do you come back from that when you had every advantage?

Deontay Wilder allegedly stands to gain $14m from the Fury bout. The American also has an immediate rematch clause in his contract, which means he’ll probably earn another $10m if he loses his fight this weekend.

Wilder’s average payday (excl. the Ortiz bout) is only $1.28m, which is calculated on his earnings from the following world title fights:

• Gerald Washington = $900K
• Chris Arreola = $1.4m
• Artur Szpilka = $1.5m
• Johann Duhaupas = $1.4m
• Eric Molina = $1.4m
• Bermane Stiverne I = $1m
• Bermane Stiverne II = $1.4m

I know you already mentioned Wilder’s sizable payday is the only thing he stands to gain if he loses, but when you compare it to the typical sums he commands, it would have taken him nineteen bouts to earn roughly $24m (if he continued fighting the sort of guys I mentioned above).

Haye doesn't have a great record at HW and to be fair, neither does Fury, Wladimir aside.

Fury was still on the rise in 2014, whereas Haye was much more experienced.

Even though Haye was a broken down sack of you know what in 2014, we have been asked to base our assumptions on the basis that A) Haye makes it to the ring, B) Haye completes the fight without having his toe stepped on, C) Something doesn't go SNAP inside Haye's body and factoring that into the equation, I'd take Haye by decision.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19

If Fury beats Wilder, then we’ll know the answer to this question, but if he gets bombed-out, then Tyson was KO’d by one of David Haye’s long-time sparring partners.

I'll focus on this. Particularly the second half of the paragraph. IF Fury loses to Wilder by knockout--- it depends when and how in my mind.

If it takes Wilder into the late rounds to do it, then I think it speaks more of Wilder's limitations than it does Fury's shortcomings. If it takes you eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve rounds to put away a guy who was 400 pounds about two years ago and hadn't fought in three years (against anyone worthwhile anyways) then I have little doubt that AJ would probably beat Wilder.

But it also shows me that IF it takes that long for Wilder to do it, that he'd of never touched the 2015 version of Fury. Though I do find it funny you somehow think if Wilder wins, that somehow validates that Haye would win against Fury in 2014.

Haye nailed him repeatedly in sparring, etc. I think Haye even dropped Wilder. But let's not forget at that point Wilder wasn't the WBC champion and was hardly a contender. So why wouldn't Haye knock him about at that point?

Now if Wilder kayos Fury fast, then I would probably give him props--- however, at the same time, if that happens isn't it more likely to argue that Fury came back too fast?

Fury has everything to gain and Wilder has almost nothing to gain. This fight has given him more exposure than ever, and probably his biggest payday, but if he wins is it really that great? If he loses then how do you come back from that when you had every advantage?

You show yourself to be a daunted Wilder hater. I usually don't respond to such bias, but you really are too obvious. Wilder by KO 5-6 rounds.

Well Haye certainly had speed and movement in his pomp, and he could certainly bang. Granted, he would have to deal with the reach disadvantage, which he struggled against Klitschko and Valuev. I suspect it would be a case of Haye pushing the pace on the front foot, with Fury catching him with backfoot counters.

Not true. If anyone ever listened to ATGRADIO I always said that Wilder is the most dangerous Heavyweight out there and I have little doubt that he'd beat AJ. He'd beat Klitschko. But I don't think a Max Baer type, which is what he is, can beat a Fury--- although he does pose problems for him naturally because of the long layoff.

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 12:15

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19

If Fury beats Wilder, then we’ll know the answer to this question, but if he gets bombed-out, then Tyson was KO’d by one of David Haye’s long-time sparring partners.

I'll focus on this. Particularly the second half of the paragraph. IF Fury loses to Wilder by knockout--- it depends when and how in my mind.

If it takes Wilder into the late rounds to do it, then I think it speaks more of Wilder's limitations than it does Fury's shortcomings. If it takes you eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve rounds to put away a guy who was 400 pounds about two years ago and hadn't fought in three years (against anyone worthwhile anyways) then I have little doubt that AJ would probably beat Wilder.

But it also shows me that IF it takes that long for Wilder to do it, that he'd of never touched the 2015 version of Fury. Though I do find it funny you somehow think if Wilder wins, that somehow validates that Haye would win against Fury in 2014.

Haye nailed him repeatedly in sparring, etc. I think Haye even dropped Wilder. But let's not forget at that point Wilder wasn't the WBC champion and was hardly a contender. So why wouldn't Haye knock him about at that point?

Now if Wilder kayos Fury fast, then I would probably give him props--- however, at the same time, if that happens isn't it more likely to argue that Fury came back too fast?

Fury has everything to gain and Wilder has almost nothing to gain. This fight has given him more exposure than ever, and probably his biggest payday, but if he wins is it really that great? If he loses then how do you come back from that when you had every advantage?

You show yourself to be a daunted Wilder hater. I usually don't respond to such bias, but you really are too obvious. Wilder by KO 5-6 rounds.

nah i dont think hes a wilder hate, more just a fury fanboy, wilder is a big boy btw and doesnt need so much 'hater!' stuff thats been going around lately

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 12:55 Not true. If anyone ever listened to ATGRADIO I always said that Wilder is the most dangerous Heavyweight out there and I have little doubt that he'd beat AJ. He'd beat Klitschko. But I don't think a Max Baer type, which is what he is, can beat a Fury--- although he does pose problems for him naturally because of the long layoff.

It's amazing he'd beat all those guys but he avoided the fight all his career. Thank goodness we have you here to tell us what's what.

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 04:16 Actually, Fury struggled pretty hard against Cunningham. I have to wonder if Fury's weakness is athletic midgets instead of big, stiff guys.

I think a non-injured Haye/Fury is 50-50 from around this time. I wish the fight would've happened for sure.

Surely someone being 6’ 3” ain’t a midget? Anthony Joshua is 6’ 6”, so is he supposed to be average height?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 09:00

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19I'll focus on this. Particularly the second half of the paragraph. IF Fury loses to Wilder by knockout--- it depends when and how in my mind.

Agreed. It doesn’t make my sentence you quoted inaccurate though.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19But it also shows me that IF it takes that long for Wilder to do it, that he'd of never touched the 2015 version of Fury. Though I do find it funny you somehow think if Wilder wins, that somehow validates that Haye would win against Fury in 2014.

I understand the reason why you’ve said that, but I didn’t actually say that and that’s not what I meant either.

I don’t believe that Wilder has improved his boxing fundamentals since his title reign commenced at the start of 2015 and he was Haye’s sparring partner a little over a year prior. So the Hayemaker would have sparred against a near optimal version of Deontay.

The perception we have about Tyson Fury’s ability is entirely reliant on what he achieved against Wladimir Klitschko. We don’t truly know if his victory was due to his superiority over the Ukraine legend or if it was due to a combination of Klitschko’s age and well-documented personal problems.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 08:19Fury has everything to gain and Wilder has almost nothing to gain. This fight has given him more exposure than ever, and probably his biggest payday, but if he wins is it really that great? If he loses then how do you come back from that when you had every advantage?

Deontay Wilder allegedly stands to gain $14m from the Fury bout. The American also has an immediate rematch clause in his contract, which means he’ll probably earn another $10m if he loses his fight this weekend.

Wilder’s average payday (excl. the Ortiz bout) is only $1.28m, which is calculated on his earnings from the following world title fights:

• Gerald Washington = $900K
• Chris Arreola = $1.4m
• Artur Szpilka = $1.5m
• Johann Duhaupas = $1.4m
• Eric Molina = $1.4m
• Bermane Stiverne I = $1m
• Bermane Stiverne II = $1.4m

I know you already mentioned Wilder’s sizable payday is the only thing he stands to gain if he loses, but when you compare it to the typical sums he commands, it would have taken him nineteen bouts to earn roughly $24m (if he continued fighting the sort of guys I mentioned above).

Where did you get those numbers for Wilder’s pay days?

OH_RickNMorty wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 13:37

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 04:16 Actually, Fury struggled pretty hard against Cunningham. I have to wonder if Fury's weakness is athletic midgets instead of big, stiff guys.

I think a non-injured Haye/Fury is 50-50 from around this time. I wish the fight would've happened for sure.

Surely someone being 6’ 3” ain’t a midget? Anthony Joshua is 6’ 6”, so is he supposed to be average height?

I know that's not a midget. I was saying it jokingly, ffs, since Fury is like 6' 9", supposedly. You guys take things too literally.

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 13:09

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 12:55 Not true. If anyone ever listened to ATGRADIO I always said that Wilder is the most dangerous Heavyweight out there and I have little doubt that he'd beat AJ. He'd beat Klitschko. But I don't think a Max Baer type, which is what he is, can beat a Fury--- although he does pose problems for him naturally because of the long layoff.

It's amazing he'd beat all those guys but he avoided the fight all his career. Thank goodness we have you here to tell us what's what.

Avoided? Ehhh I don't think he was really ever on Klitschko's radar tbh. Wladimir had all these mandatories from the IBF, WBA, WBO, IBO, etc--- and although Wilder won the WBC title I believe he was perceived as "green" and maybe down the road Klitschko would have fought him, provided all the tape could be cut from the organizations to allow it.

Klitschko's hands literally were tied. Had he opted to fight Wilder he potentially could have been stripped and here the title is fractured--- and Klitschko tried so hard to unify, that it'd be counter-productive. The only reason why Fury got a shot at Klitschko was the three or four eliminators he fought.

As far as AJ is concerned.... He and Hearn balked at $50 million dollars... That is 4x's more (easily) than what Fury's making for this. That's a tell tale sign of someone who didn't really want it. He wants to fight Usyk, a Cruiserweight, because it's safe matchmaking. Big money for a low risk contest.

If Fury wins, I guarantee AJ calls out Wilder instead of wanting to unify after his April match and Wladimir unretires and demands a rematch from Fury. If he wins, just watch.

ironbeard wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 18:50

OH_RickNMorty wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 18:40

ironbeard wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 18:37
I acknowledged your ridiculous parameters in my first post. That is why I chose Fury UD. I also think that it would be far more likely that Fury would stop Haye than the opposite.

Haye was a walking injury for most of the last decade.

How is it ridiculous that I’m trying to make a fair fight? Haye was already prone to injuries around this time so — almost undoubtedly considering he’d have to spring off to hit Fury — he probably end up damaging his Achilles or other injuries. Simply trying to make a fair fight, or a more entertaining fight, you may say.

You just answered your own question. It would not have been a fair fight, period.

If you were trying to make it a fair fight with a 2014 Fury, you should have matched him against a circa 2008 Haye. That would make an interesting discussion.

I agree. The 2014 Haye was already well past his best. The respective trajectories at that time are all wrong for Haye.

The version of Haye before his initial retirement would be a much better contest, he still had his explosiveness then

If fit and healthy Haye stops Fury

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 15:01

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 13:09

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 12:55 Not true. If anyone ever listened to ATGRADIO I always said that Wilder is the most dangerous Heavyweight out there and I have little doubt that he'd beat AJ. He'd beat Klitschko. But I don't think a Max Baer type, which is what he is, can beat a Fury--- although he does pose problems for him naturally because of the long layoff.

It's amazing he'd beat all those guys but he avoided the fight all his career. Thank goodness we have you here to tell us what's what.

Avoided? Ehhh I don't think he was really ever on Klitschko's radar tbh. Wladimir had all these mandatories from the IBF, WBA, WBO, IBO, etc--- and although Wilder won the WBC title I believe he was perceived as "green" and maybe down the road Klitschko would have fought him, provided all the tape could be cut from the organizations to allow it.

Klitschko's hands literally were tied. Had he opted to fight Wilder he potentially could have been stripped and here the title is fractured--- and Klitschko tried so hard to unify, that it'd be counter-productive. The only reason why Fury got a shot at Klitschko was the three or four eliminators he fought.

As far as AJ is concerned.... He and Hearn balked at $50 million dollars... That is 4x's more (easily) than what Fury's making for this. That's a tell tale sign of someone who didn't really want it. He wants to fight Usyk, a Cruiserweight, because it's safe matchmaking. Big money for a low risk contest.

If Fury wins, I guarantee AJ calls out Wilder instead of wanting to unify after his April match and Wladimir unretires and demands a rematch from Fury. If he wins, just watch.

I most certainly will watch, but I'm sorry my friend, your head is in cloud cuckoo land.

Deontay Wilder has had three years since he won the WBC belt to contemplate a unification fight, and he has not even run close to one. Even if you wanted to play the 'Klitchsko was tied up with mandatories' card, that only accounted for one of the three years since he's been WBC champion.

Charles Martin fought Vyacheslav Glazkov for the vacant IBF belt almost three years ago and Joseph Parker fought Andy Ruiz Jr for the vacant WBO title almost two years ago. In that time, Wilder has engaged in WBC mandatory/voluntary defences against Szpilka, Arreola, Washington, Stiverne II and Ortiz. What can your excuse for him not trying to pursue ONE unification fight? Anthony Joshua managed to track down and collect the IBF, WBA and WBO in separate unification fights in that time.

Henry, think about what you're saying here. Wilder offered Anthony Joshua $50 million to fight him when his average pay day to date (not including the Fury fight) was something in the region of $1.5 million? Where is he generating this arbitrary $50 million? Are they planning to not pay Wilder at all? Even Joshua who sells out 90,000 stadiums and does 1 million PPV buys does not come close to generating that. They still have only sold 12,500 tickets from a possible 17,500 tickets in New York, the week of the fight.

And finally, you give me one source which says Joshua's next fight is Usyk. You'll probably find, if Usyk does indeed step up to heavyweight, they won't lock horns until at least 2020.

I liked have by ko then but I think fury could freeze him and win a stinker.

The fight would have never have happened. . . .Haye would have hurt his ear or his hair or his skin or one of a hundred other issues.