BoxRec

conan_the_cribber wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 11:53 Nahhh, too early, just wait till something official happens.

Agree, just going to make it messier to remove him now.

Currently 4 of the top 10 have failed tests, including your BoxRec ranked king Tyson Fury. Yall keep rating him, along with Whyte's fellow 2x test failures Ortiz and Povetkin. Although their failures were much more closely grouped---Whyte's first was years ago.

I mean, why not just keep rating all the PED users then. If they are suspended long enough that they become inactive and don't do enough to maintain their ranking, lower them then.

Is anyone really expecting Whyte to not fight again within the next year? It's pretty obvious to me that if he's voted out he will just get voted in again not too long from now. If you refuse to vote him back in on principle, well then say bye to Fury, Ort, and Povetkin too, and never vote Miller back in.

Let me ask, for those saying he's out

Is that based on your principle that drugs are awful, or is that you saying it more based on technical issues like suspensions, bans, etc.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 16:45 Currently 4 of the top 10 have failed tests, including your BoxRec ranked king Tyson Fury. Yall keep rating him, along with Whyte's fellow 2x test failures Ortiz and Povetkin. Although their failures were much more closely grouped---Whyte's first was years ago.

I mean, why not just keep rating all the PED users then. If they are suspended long enough that they become inactive and don't do enough to maintain their ranking, lower them then.

Is anyone really expecting Whyte to not fight again within the next year? It's pretty obvious to me that if he's voted out he will just get voted in again not too long from now. If you refuse to vote him back in on principle, well then say bye to Fury, Ort, and Povetkin too, and never vote Miller back in.

all of them should have been out for some time imo and I would also put asterisks against their names to make sure everyone remembers they are dopers..

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:00 Let me ask, for those saying he's out

Is that based on your principle that drugs are awful, or is that you saying it more based on technical issues like suspensions, bans, etc.

for me it's like - you get caught, your rating gets re-started, you start from zero. Povetkin, Fury, Ortiz etc all had fights after their doping affairs.

If Whyte gets removed, he may well be voted in after his next fight, but i doubt that people would vote him as high as he was before.

So what if Whyte in a few months beats some scrub, he just goes back to #5? Or does his resume start from scratch and now suddenly he's lower rated than Dom Breazeale, even though it's obvious his resume is better and that he's a better fighter?

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:12 So what if Whyte in a few months beats some scrub, he just goes back to #5? Or does his resume start from scratch and now suddenly he's lower rated than Dom Breazeale, even though it's obvious his resume is better and that he's a better fighter?

he needs to defeat a notable opponent to get a chance again. i doubt that people would vote him to #5 again.

To me that just jumbles the ratings then, because you are still going to include him likely, but in a spot that is clearly lower than what his resume and ability would merit.

BTW what happened in Ortiz's case? Since he actually was caught failing ahead of time for a fight that went ahead. Did he not get ranked until he fought again after Wilder?

for now he's still quite far from being removed from the list, there aren't enough votes so far.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:15 To me that just jumbles the ratings then, because you are still going to include him likely, but in a spot that is clearly lower than what his resume and ability would merit.

but he is a cheater - some people might say - how would his resume look like if not cheating? if he was really cheating vs Rivas, i can imagine him losing that fight. and i don't care if it's officially a NC or not, Lebedev vs Jones was Jones TKO for years.

next question is - how he will look like in his first fight after getting caught/suspended, without cheating. maybe he'll look worse, i think he likely will.

True, though then how would the 3 other highly ranked cheaters have looked in the past if they weren't cheating?

Just a bit funny to me this stuff when the #1 is a cheater too as is about half the top 10

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:22 True, though then how would the 3 other ranked cheaters have looked in the past if they weren't cheating?

they proved their current place in their after cheating fights. at least that is how people rank them. this ranking isn't perfect, it's just a ranking based on people's thoughts. Whyte may be removed, but he can bounce back, even to #1, if he defeats opposition good enough to convince people he should be ranked there.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:22 True, though then how would the 3 other highly ranked cheaters have looked in the past if they weren't cheating?

Just a bit funny to me this stuff when the #1 is a cheater too as is about half the top 10

without past cheaters we would probably get guys like Andriy Rudenko in top 15

dagilechia wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:20

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:15 To me that just jumbles the ratings then, because you are still going to include him likely, but in a spot that is clearly lower than what his resume and ability would merit.

but he is a cheater - some people might say - how would his resume look like if not cheating? if he was really cheating vs Rivas, i can imagine him losing that fight. and i don't care if it's officially a NC or not, Lebedev vs Jones was Jones TKO for years.

next question is - how he will look like in his first fight after getting caught/suspended, without cheating. maybe he'll look worse, i think he likely will.

good point, Dag, once caught I would probably start questioning his integrity from day one..in case of Whyte that shouldn't be too unreasonable..

greg wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:28

dagilechia wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:20

but he is a cheater - some people might say - how would his resume look like if not cheating? if he was really cheating vs Rivas, i can imagine him losing that fight. and i don't care if it's officially a NC or not, Lebedev vs Jones was Jones TKO for years.

next question is - how he will look like in his first fight after getting caught/suspended, without cheating. maybe he'll look worse, i think he likely will.

good point, Dag, once caught I would probably start questioning his integrity from day one..in case of Whyte that shouldn't be too unreasonable..

yeah, do you think he will be as good in his comeback fight as he was before? i think he will not. I was surprised with his improvement as i have never rated him high, i was surprised that he could deal with Parker... if he was cheating, that would make much more sense to me.

I say keep him in, the case is far from clear yet, and you're just either going to have him back in soon anyway, or out based on drug use while several other fellow users are highly ranked.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:32 I say keep him in, the case is far from clear yet, and you're just either going to have him back in soon anyway, or out based on drug use while several other fellow users are highly ranked.

your vote is counted, you are not alone so there is a decent chance that he will remain in the ranking, the voting will last for some time so maybe we will know something more before it ends.

dagilechia wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:32

greg wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:28

good point, Dag, once caught I would probably start questioning his integrity from day one..in case of Whyte that shouldn't be too unreasonable..

yeah, do you think he will be as good in his comeback fight as he was before? i think he will not. I was surprised with his improvement as i have never rated him high, i was surprised that he could deal with Parker... if he was cheating, that would make much more sense to me.

in case sample B turns out to be positive, I would expect he'll disappear for the next 8 years which means he'll be irrelevant upon his unlikely return..

No change he's out for 8 years. If it is, that is in just the UK anyway isn't it? He could just hook up with PBC

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:42 No change he's out for 8 years. If it is, that is in just the UK anyway isn't it? He could just hook up with PBC

unfortunately your scenario can be more likely..

Stays. It don't hurt anything to keep him and await any official decisions. Miller was caught red handed with a cocktail of stuff. Whyte's situation is more murky.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:00 Let me ask, for those saying he's out

Is that based on your principle that drugs are awful, or is that you saying it more based on technical issues like suspensions, bans, etc.

Just waiting on clarification on his licence to box. No point in having guys on our list if they are suspended, or under a potential court hearing.
I agree with Daggie, wait and see. If he is suspended then he will be re ranked after his first fight back.

I'd say the wait and see approach is to keep him ranked. If we remove him we aren't waiting.

dagilechia wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:11

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:00 Let me ask, for those saying he's out

Is that based on your principle that drugs are awful, or is that you saying it more based on technical issues like suspensions, bans, etc.

for me it's like - you get caught, your rating gets re-started, you start from zero. Povetkin, Fury, Ortiz etc all had fights after their doping affairs.

If Whyte gets removed, he may well be voted in after his next fight, but i doubt that people would vote him as high as he was before.

Since Ortiz last tested positive (29/09/17), he's 4-1 with wins over Hammer, Kauffman, Martz and Cojanu yet, in January (prior to the Hammer fight) you voted him 5th...

joshj909 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 18:27

dagilechia wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 17:11

for me it's like - you get caught, your rating gets re-started, you start from zero. Povetkin, Fury, Ortiz etc all had fights after their doping affairs.

If Whyte gets removed, he may well be voted in after his next fight, but i doubt that people would vote him as high as he was before.

Since Ortiz last tested positive (29/09/17), he's 4-1 with wins over Hammer, Kauffman, Martz and Cojanu yet, in January (prior to the Hammer fight) you voted him 5th...

Not to mention Fury was suspended during his wilderness years. So, I'm not sure getting a draw with Wilder and beating 3 no hopers really justifies being ranked #1...

Anyway, to be blunt, Presumption of Innocence is not something I'm going to mess with. So, for me he stays until there is an official announcement from a legitimate governing body.