BoxRec

JohnReed wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 14:58

klompton wrote: ↑21 Oct 2019, 19:47 Norton has one of the thinnest win resumes in HOF history. His entire reputation is built on him giving Ali fits due entirely to his style. He remains the only HW champ to have never won a championship, literally being gifted his title retroactively based on a gift decision over Young. No, he was not a class above Quarry. If that were the case he would have fought Quarry much earlier for a big payday instead of ducking the matches he was repeatedly offered by Aileen Eaton in order to fight lesser opponents for less money. The memory of getting knocked out cold was still fresh in his mind. If you want to believe Norton was simply “better” than Quarry and thats why he beat him, fair enough. But dismissing the facts that Quarry was in a steep decline, ill trained, took the fight on short notice, etc is nothing more than burying your fanboy head in the sand. All of those points are easily confirmed if you chose to look them up. And again, a fat, out of shape, and rapidly obsolete Quarry still badly hurt Norton and him running for cover before he gassed out. So lets, not pretend that glass jawed Ken Norton was a bridge too far for a prime Quarry.

I didn't deny that Quarry was in athletic decline when he fought Norton. I even acknowledged that he probably wasn't in the best of shape that night either. Did you read my other post about Quarry's 1975 Scrapiron Johnson fight? I indicated that Quarry may have revealed signs of severe burn-out and physical decay even in that bout.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 15:44

JohnReed wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 14:58

I didn't deny that Quarry was in athletic decline when he fought Norton. I even acknowledged that he probably wasn't in the best of shape that night either. Did you read my other post about Quarry's 1975 Scrapiron Johnson fight? I indicated that Quarry may have revealed signs of severe burn-out and physical decay even in that bout.

Why was nobody saying that Quarry was past it before the fight? I never heard anything about him being past it for the Norton fight until many years after the fight.
Quarry was still ranked when they fought. He was just 29. It was only a couple of years after the Lyle fight.

I was "out of shape" is the boxing excuse for my dog ate my homework.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 15:44

JohnReed wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 14:58

I didn't deny that Quarry was in athletic decline when he fought Norton. I even acknowledged that he probably wasn't in the best of shape that night either. Did you read my other post about Quarry's 1975 Scrapiron Johnson fight? I indicated that Quarry may have revealed signs of severe burn-out and physical decay even in that bout.

Why was nobody saying that Quarry was past it before the fight? I never heard anything about him being past it for the Norton fight until many years after the fight.
Quarry was still ranked when they fought. He was just 29. It was only a couple of years after the Lyle fight.

I was "out of shape" is the boxing excuse for my dog ate my homework.

JohnReed wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 16:37

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 15:44

Why was nobody saying that Quarry was past it before the fight? I never heard anything about him being past it for the Norton fight until many years after the fight.
Quarry was still ranked when they fought. He was just 29. It was only a couple of years after the Lyle fight.

I was "out of shape" is the boxing excuse for my dog ate my homework.

There are a few points to consider.

First, take a look at Quarry's 1974 effort against Frazier. Quarry looks like a shot fighter, taking a one-sided beating. Compare that fight to Frazier-Quarry I, which took place in 1969. You'll see that the 1974 version of Quarry doesn't have the punch resistance, vitality, power, and tenacity of the younger version. That's the first piece of evidence suggesting that, by 1974-75, Quarry was on the biological and athletic downside.

Second, consider Quarry's 1974 tune-up bout against Joe Alexander. Quarry was nearly KO'd in the first round. Would a younger Quarry have been that vulnerable against a fighter like Alexander? I tend to doubt it.

Third, consider Quarry's 1975 tune-up bout against Scrapiron Johnson. I didn't see the fight, but I remember reading the Ring Magazine description of the action. I also saw a couple of brief newspaper accounts of the fight. There was talk to the effect that Quarry may not have deserved the decision that night. Quarry must have been very burned-out or physically aged if he struggled with a fighter like Johnson, a guy that Jerry had whipped twice previously. This bout was a red flag that Quarry was nearing the end of his shelf-life as a fighter.

Fourth and finally, even though Quarry put up a great fight against Ken Norton in March 1975, it's clear that Jerry was not the same lean, mean fighter that he had been in earlier times. You can tell by looking at his physique. Quarry punched himself out in that fight by the end of the third round, which suggests he wasn't capable of getting himself into tip-top shape anymore after ten hard years of fighting.

As for Quarry still being in the top-10 ratings in March 1975, well, the reality is that he had sunk to the bottom of the rankings. Most organizations and magazines rated Quarry something like 7th or 8th worldwide at that point. Previously in his career, Quarry was rarely ranked below 4th or 5th in the world. By 1975, Quarry was still worthy of a ranking based on his experience and earlier big wins, and not so much on his ability. He was perennial contender on the way down and out of boxing at that point.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Oct 2019, 10:44 He looked like he had in previous years. He weighed 27; it's not like he was obese. He was 202 when he fought Shavers. He was 209 when he fought Randy Nuemann a couple of years earlier.

As for the not in shape excuse- the point is that it;'s lame. You can always come up with crap like this. My pet gerbil died. I was partying too much etc. Always love how people will latch on to anything to excuse a specific fight. How about all the fights that Quarry won? I'm sure you can come up with some crap for his opponents as well.

If you are going to buy this kind of excuse, no fighter ever really lost legitimately.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Oct 2019, 10:53 1. The 2nd Frazier fight went about as expected.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Oct 2019, 10:44 He looked like he had in previous years. He weighed 27; it's not like he was obese. He was 202 when he fought Shavers. He was 209 when he fought Randy Nuemann a couple of years earlier.

As for the not in shape excuse- the point is that it;'s lame. You can always come up with crap like this. My pet gerbil died. I was partying too much etc. Always love how people will latch on to anything to excuse a specific fight. How about all the fights that Quarry won? I'm sure you can come up with some crap for his opponents as well.

If you are going to buy this kind of excuse, no fighter ever really lost legitimately.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019, 14:50 Actually I am a former two-time WBS Super-cruiserweight interm champion.

As for out of the ring problems, That's kind of one of my points. Everyone has things going on outside of the ring that they have to deal with. So are we looking into what was going on in Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers' lives when Quarry fought them? Of course not. Only Quarry. We just assume that everyone else was at peak efficiency when they fought Quarry.

What about Larry Middleton, whom a prime Quarry barely beat?
How about shot Chuvalo, who Quarry managed to lose to?

Everyone was always at their best against Quarry? No one else had to deal with anything?

drunkenpiper36 wrote: ↑26 Oct 2019, 16:33 There was a lot of talk back then about Quarry’s lifestyle outside the ring. Mention of cocaine use, alcohol and bad spending habits which eventually rendered him bankrupt. I think Quarrys last year as an elite contender was 1973. From there he took a steep fall downward and by 1975 May have been diminished. Sure he was still only 29 or 30 when he met norton but he was also coming in around 15 lbs above his traditional best weight and also lugging close to 60 fights of mileage behind him. That coupled with the lifestyle mentioned above and I can see why he’d be a shot fighter. With all that said, I’m making no claims as to who would win prime for prime between Norton and Quarry. I imagine it would be a great fight either way.

JohnReed wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019, 15:42

drunkenpiper36 wrote: ↑26 Oct 2019, 16:33 There was a lot of talk back then about Quarry’s lifestyle outside the ring. Mention of cocaine use, alcohol and bad spending habits which eventually rendered him bankrupt. I think Quarrys last year as an elite contender was 1973. From there he took a steep fall downward and by 1975 May have been diminished. Sure he was still only 29 or 30 when he met norton but he was also coming in around 15 lbs above his traditional best weight and also lugging close to 60 fights of mileage behind him. That coupled with the lifestyle mentioned above and I can see why he’d be a shot fighter. With all that said, I’m making no claims as to who would win prime for prime between Norton and Quarry. I imagine it would be a great fight either way.

If I'm not mistaken, Quarry actually lived in New York City during the 1973-74 period. I've heard that he did a lot of partying during those months. Allegedly Quarry was hanging out with Mickey Mantle and other famous athletes, partying it up and hitting the nightclub scene.

I don't know if this is true. It's all rumor. But I find it easy to believe.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019, 15:39

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019, 14:50 Actually I am a former two-time WBS Super-cruiserweight interm champion.

As for out of the ring problems, That's kind of one of my points. Everyone has things going on outside of the ring that they have to deal with. So are we looking into what was going on in Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers' lives when Quarry fought them? Of course not. Only Quarry. We just assume that everyone else was at peak efficiency when they fought Quarry.

What about Larry Middleton, whom a prime Quarry barely beat?
How about shot Chuvalo, who Quarry managed to lose to?

Everyone was always at their best against Quarry? No one else had to deal with anything?

I’d be interested to hear of how the camps of his opponents went of course. I’m not defending Quarry here just pointing out something I’ve noticed. I could be wrong of course. I’ve got a good few pro fighters as pals and I know what they go thru in and out of camps etc. I’ve also seen guys lose to fighters they are 100% better than due to circumstances, sometimes beyond their control.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019, 10:58 As for Quarry, there are just some points that just don't add up:

-I think he was simply overrated by many people. He was much closer to the Jimmy Ellis, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena etc. level than the Ali-Frazier-Foreman level.

- The excuses are lame. Too much partying? Come on. People are quick to latch on on to anything in regard to him.If you are going to use excuses for him against Norton, then you can come up with something for literally every fight.

-He didn't just magically decline right before the Norton fight. Look at this career. Yes he had some nice wins. But look at the time line, you see it all through his career:

1968- Lost to Ellis
1969-Dominated by Frazier and stopped in 7 rounds.
1970-Stopped after three rounds in Ali's first fight in 3 and a half years.
1972-Barely scrapes by Larry Middleton
1972-Stopped again by Ali in 7 rounds. Didn't win a round.
1974-Dominated again by Frazier.

It's not just that he went -5 against Ali, Frazier and Norton. He never got past the 7th round. Won about 3 rounds total in those 5 fights. He couldn't compete with them. He simply was not on their level.

There is little reason to expect a much different result against Norton. He starts off strong, runs out gas, goes into punching bag mode. The usual pattern.

JohnReed wrote: ↑21 Oct 2019, 16:17

klompton wrote: ↑21 Oct 2019, 11:43 Not necessarily true. He came in at his career highest weight against ScrapIron Johnson (a fight he picked up while on vacation to earn some easy money over an opponent hed already beaten) was untrained, had a much more difficult fight than he should have, and generally looked awful (the decision was booed). So yes, while he had recently had a 10 round fight it wasnt like he was in heavy training or that he was his old self. In reality he had been partying, drinking, doing cocaine, and almost no training. It showed against both Johnson and Norton. He looked bloated and out of shape, and had no stamina. The idea that there is no legitimate excuse for that loss and he simply got beat by the better fighter doesnt hold up. Its not like Norton was a class above Quarry in any way shape or form. Quality wise they were abou equal but Jerry’s strengths would have played havok on Norton’s weaknesses. Prime for prime Jerry beats Ken IMO. Ken was damn lucky he got Quarry in the condition he did (Norton had turned down several offers earlier in his career to fight Quarry) because he had looked pretty shaky in that fight when Jerry threw his bolt going for the KO.

I rate Norton above Quarry on a prime-for-prime basis, and in terms of their relative ability levels as of 1975. And yes, I agree that Quarry was not in peak condition for the Norton fight. His physique looked rugged and sturdy, of course. But it also looked bloated and lacked muscle tone. At 207 lbs, Quarry was fighting at his third highest weight ever.

Overall, however, I thought Quarry put on a tough, aggressive and not-so-bad performance against Norton. For three rounds, Jerry had Ken under heavy pressure, regardless of who was getting the better of the exchanges. Quarry won the third round, even though Norton blocked most of Quarry's blows.

It's clear that Quarry blew his ammunition load and fuel during that third round offensive. Coming out for the fourth, Quarry was drained, and he took a one sided beating from that point on. But even so, it was impressive to see Jerry swing back ferociously while outclassed, and obviously he showed he could take a punch.

Quarry's effort against Norton was that much superior to his effort against Frazier in June 1974. Do you agree?

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019, 15:39

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Oct 2019, 14:50 Actually I am a former two-time WBS Super-cruiserweight interm champion.

As for out of the ring problems, That's kind of one of my points. Everyone has things going on outside of the ring that they have to deal with. So are we looking into what was going on in Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers' lives when Quarry fought them? Of course not. Only Quarry. We just assume that everyone else was at peak efficiency when they fought Quarry.

What about Larry Middleton, whom a prime Quarry barely beat?
How about shot Chuvalo, who Quarry managed to lose to?

Everyone was always at their best against Quarry? No one else had to deal with anything?

I’d be interested to hear of how the camps of his opponents went of course. I’m not defending Quarry here just pointing out something I’ve noticed. I could be wrong of course. I’ve got a good few pro fighters as pals and I know what they go thru in and out of camps etc. I’ve also seen guys lose to fighters they are 100% better than due to circumstances, sometimes beyond their control.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Oct 2019, 10:58 As for Quarry, there are just some points that just don't add up:

-I think he was simply overrated by many people. He was much closer to the Jimmy Ellis, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena etc. level than the Ali-Frazier-Foreman level.

- The excuses are lame. Too much partying? Come on. People are quick to latch on on to anything in regard to him.If you are going to use excuses for him against Norton, then you can come up with something for literally every fight.

-He didn't just magically decline right before the Norton fight. Look at this career. Yes he had some nice wins. But look at the time line, you see it all through his career:

1968- Lost to Ellis
1969-Dominated by Frazier and stopped in 7 rounds.
1970-Stopped after three rounds in Ali's first fight in 3 and a half years.
1972-Barely scrapes by Larry Middleton
1972-Stopped again by Ali in 7 rounds. Didn't win a round.
1974-Dominated again by Frazier.

It's not just that he went -5 against Ali, Frazier and Norton. He never got past the 7th round. Won about 3 rounds total in those 5 fights. He couldn't compete with them. He simply was not on their level.

There is little reason to expect a much different result against Norton. He starts off strong, runs out gas, goes into punching bag mode. The usual pattern.

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 20:02 I would have loved to see Quarry vs Norton in their respective primes. Would've been a great fight. Quarry was the far tougher man and could box, counter, and slug. Would be interesting.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑12 Jan 2020, 12:53

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 20:02 I would have loved to see Quarry vs Norton in their respective primes. Would've been a great fight. Quarry was the far tougher man and could box, counter, and slug. Would be interesting.

I thought we did. Quarry was only 30 in 1975.