Did Jerry Quarry ever floor or KO Ken Norton in sparring during the early 1970s?

[JohnReed]

There's some biography of Jerry Quarry available on Google Books. I took a look at it, and was very surprised to read that -- according to the author -- Quarry had once KO'd Ken Norton in sparring match. On another occasion, supposedly, Quarry floored Norton.

The book didn't say when these incidents took place. But I assume the author meant the sparring happened in the early 1970s, or even late 1960s, when Quarry was at his peak and Norton was just starting his pro career. When you think about it, that's the only period in each guy's career when they would have made suitable sparring partners.

Personally, I have a very hard time believing that Quarry KO'd or floored Norton in sparring. Also, I question if these two guys really sparred with each other at any point in time.

Can someone set the record straight for me?

[bennie]

Never heard this before and there's absolutely no mention of it in the Boxing News preview of the fight.

[scartissue]

This was common knowledge in L.A. at the time and seems to have been placed in mythos over the years. Rick Farris, the President of the West Coast Boxing Hall of Fame told me they were regular sparring partners in the Main Street Gym in L.A. back in the late 60s-early 70s and that Jerry regularly schooled Ken, even once knocking him out, which he was present for. He explained Jerry was always rough on his sparring partners. Farris was also present for Jerry doing some real damage on Ray 'Windmill' White (due to Windmill taking some liberties with him) and also really rough on younger and lighter brother Mike. If your going to be rough on your own kin, it's not a stretch that your going to be rough on everyone.

[gilgamesh]

He damn sure didn't floor him or even come close when they fought in 1975

[scartissue]

Strange how career trajectories go. Quarry, who according to boxrec, is 2 years younger than Ken, turned pro 2 years before Ken and peaked around the '69-'70 era. While Ken seemed to peak around the '73-'76 era. To have them both meet in their primes would be one of those mythical matchups. Wow, what a scrap that would have been.

[JohnReed]

I believe Scartissue's remarks. That Quarry regularly belted Norton around in sparring during the early days may explain why Quarry was so aggressive with Norton in the 1975 fight. Even before their fight, during the staredown, it's obvious that Quarry felt some kind of superb confidence against Norton. That same confidence and aggression wasn't present during Quarry debacle against Frazier one year earlier.

That Norton could have KO's Quarry in such a convincing manner in 1975 goes to show how much improvement Kenny must have made between the late '60s and mid-'70s.

I have also heard that once a guy KO's someone in sparring, it's very, very hard for the beaten sparring partner to get that memory out of his head. I've heard that emotional memory of being handled like that makes it hard for that sparring partner to ever get a sense of superiority over the other sparring partner in the aftermath. Not impossible to do, but the psychological barrier is real.

[Caractacus]

Ken Norton use to spar with Mac Foster
when they both were on the Marine Boxing team.
Foster had moved down to light-HW when Norton joined..

[JohnReed]

Ken Norton use to spar with Mac Foster
when they both were on the Marine Boxing team.
Foster had moved down to light-HW when Norton joined..

That's interesting. It's amazing to realize that a stocky, big guy like Foster could ever have made the 178 lbs limit as an amateur.

[klompton]

Quarry knocked Norton out in sparring at the Main St gym. That is a fact. They were, however, not regular sparring partners.

[Caractacus]

Ken Norton use to spar with Mac Foster
when they both were on the Marine Boxing team.
Foster had moved down to light-HW when Norton joined..

That's interesting. It's amazing to realize that a stocky, big guy like Foster could ever have made the 178 lbs limit as an amateur.

Ken Norton (b.1943)was 6 ft 3" and Mac Foster ( b.1942) was 6 ft 2"
i bumped up the link to the newspaper article where Mac Foster said that in the Mac Foster thread.

[JohnReed]

I saw the newspaper articles. Nice job...very interesting stuff.

It's interesting that Norton's birth date is now accepted as being in 1943. I remember back in the 1970s and 1980s, when everyone said Norton was born in 1945. When he fought Jerry Quarry in 1975, both fighters were listed as being 29 years old.

When Norton made fought his comeback fight against Gerry Cooney in 1981, he was said to be 35 years old. I recall people coming out of the woodwork at that time who claimed Norton's true age was 38, not 35. I didn't know what to believe.

But it looks like the controversy has been solved. Norton was born in 1943, it appears. I wonder why his birth date was listed as 1943 for so long. Perhaps he doctored his birth certificate upon turning pro, in order to appear younger? Lots of promising but older amateurs do that, I've heard, in order to make themselves more appealing to prospective managers and promoters.

[bennie]

I remember Quarry claiming he only had 10 days to train for Norton.

[klompton]

Quarry had 18 days to train. He was signed to the fight in early March. Initially Foreman was supposed to fight Bonavena as a closed circuit co-feature to Ali-Wepner. Foreman withdrew and Norton was subbed. In early march Bonavena withdrew and initially Jimmy Young was subbed in his place before Quarry was matched with Norton on a March 6. The fight was held March 24. That gave Quarry 18 days.

[Ambling Alp II]

He also was coming off a 10-round fight. No reason at all for him to be rusty. He just got beat.

[klompton]

Not necessarily true. He came in at his career highest weight against ScrapIron Johnson (a fight he picked up while on vacation to earn some easy money over an opponent hed already beaten) was untrained, had a much more difficult fight than he should have, and generally looked awful (the decision was booed). So yes, while he had recently had a 10 round fight it wasnt like he was in heavy training or that he was his old self. In reality he had been partying, drinking, doing cocaine, and almost no training. It showed against both Johnson and Norton. He looked bloated and out of shape, and had no stamina. The idea that there is no legitimate excuse for that loss and he simply got beat by the better fighter doesnt hold up. Its not like Norton was a class above Quarry in any way shape or form. Quality wise they were abou equal but Jerry’s strengths would have played havok on Norton’s weaknesses. Prime for prime Jerry beats Ken IMO. Ken was damn lucky he got Quarry in the condition he did (Norton had turned down several offers earlier in his career to fight Quarry) because he had looked pretty shaky in that fight when Jerry threw his bolt going for the KO.

[Ambling Alp II]

If you have to resort to the "he was partying too much" excuse, then you don't have much. Norton was a level above Quarry. He did a lot of things better. He was simply a better fighter.

[drunkenpiper36]

Strange how career trajectories go. Quarry, who according to boxrec, is 2 years younger than Ken, turned pro 2 years before Ken and peaked around the '69-'70 era. While Ken seemed to peak around the '73-'76 era. To have them both meet in their primes would be one of those mythical matchups. Wow, what a scrap that would have been.

I think Norton had the type of physique and physical tools which allowed him to stay competitive into older age. I also think he wasn't exposed to quality fighters as early as Jerry was. Quarry would have been a much more experienced fighter between 1968-1972 than Ken.

[JohnReed]

Not necessarily true. He came in at his career highest weight against ScrapIron Johnson (a fight he picked up while on vacation to earn some easy money over an opponent hed already beaten)...

I have heard rumors to the effect that some -- or even many -- observers believe that Scrapiron deserved the decision over Quarry in their sloppy 1975 tiff. What do you know about this?

Quarry was vastly superior to Scrapiron, obviously. But it's possible that, as of the winter of 1974-75, Jerry was so badly out of shape that he may indeed have gotten the worse of his tune-up against Scrapiron that year.

[JohnReed]

Not necessarily true. He came in at his career highest weight against ScrapIron Johnson (a fight he picked up while on vacation to earn some easy money over an opponent hed already beaten) was untrained, had a much more difficult fight than he should have, and generally looked awful (the decision was booed). So yes, while he had recently had a 10 round fight it wasnt like he was in heavy training or that he was his old self. In reality he had been partying, drinking, doing cocaine, and almost no training. It showed against both Johnson and Norton. He looked bloated and out of shape, and had no stamina. The idea that there is no legitimate excuse for that loss and he simply got beat by the better fighter doesnt hold up. Its not like Norton was a class above Quarry in any way shape or form. Quality wise they were abou equal but Jerry’s strengths would have played havok on Norton’s weaknesses. Prime for prime Jerry beats Ken IMO. Ken was damn lucky he got Quarry in the condition he did (Norton had turned down several offers earlier in his career to fight Quarry) because he had looked pretty shaky in that fight when Jerry threw his bolt going for the KO.

I rate Norton above Quarry on a prime-for-prime basis, and in terms of their relative ability levels as of 1975. And yes, I agree that Quarry was not in peak condition for the Norton fight. His physique looked rugged and sturdy, of course. But it also looked bloated and lacked muscle tone. At 207 lbs, Quarry was fighting at his third highest weight ever.

Overall, however, I thought Quarry put on a tough, aggressive and not-so-bad performance against Norton. For three rounds, Jerry had Ken under heavy pressure, regardless of who was getting the better of the exchanges. Quarry won the third round, even though Norton blocked most of Quarry's blows.

It's clear that Quarry blew his ammunition load and fuel during that third round offensive. Coming out for the fourth, Quarry was drained, and he took a one sided beating from that point on. But even so, it was impressive to see Jerry swing back ferociously while outclassed, and obviously he showed he could take a punch.

Quarry's effort against Norton was that much superior to his effort against Frazier in June 1974. Do you agree?

[JohnReed]

If you have to resort to the "he was partying too much" excuse, then you don't have much. Norton was a level above Quarry. He did a lot of things better. He was simply a better fighter.

If Quarry had been in peak shape for the 1975 Norton fight, then the battle probably would have gone into the late rounds. A late round TKO win for Norton, and hard fought struggle at that. Perhaps Ken would have been dropped in the early rounds before roaring back to win.

I believe Quarry's partying is factor in the outcome of the Norton fight. Either way, Norton would still have won, though.

[klompton]

Norton has one of the thinnest win resumes in HOF history. His entire reputation is built on him giving Ali fits due entirely to his style. He remains the only HW champ to have never won a championship, literally being gifted his title retroactively based on a gift decision over Young. No, he was not a class above Quarry. If that were the case he would have fought Quarry much earlier for a big payday instead of ducking the matches he was repeatedly offered by Aileen Eaton in order to fight lesser opponents for less money. The memory of getting knocked out cold was still fresh in his mind. If you want to believe Norton was simply “better” than Quarry and thats why he beat him, fair enough. But dismissing the facts that Quarry was in a steep decline, ill trained, took the fight on short notice, etc is nothing more than burying your fanboy head in the sand. All of those points are easily confirmed if you chose to look them up. And again, a fat, out of shape, and rapidly obsolete Quarry still badly hurt Norton and him running for cover before he gassed out. So lets, not pretend that glass jawed Ken Norton was a bridge too far for a prime Quarry.

[Ambling Alp II]

There are many HOF fighters with a weaker resumes than Norton. Literally scores, probably close to a 100.
What he did against Ali was kind of a big deal. And it was not entirely due to styles. You don't win fights entirely on style. You also have to be very good to be competitive and beat Ali. Something Quarry failed miserably at.

How did Quarry do against Ali? Fought him twice and got beaten badly both times.

He also had great fights against Young and Holmes. Anybody watching those fights can tell you that Norton was a great fighter. Quarry could never have competed against Holmes on his best day.
Norton beat several guys who would have been contenders in other eras. Henry Clark, Boone Kirkman, Larry Middleton.
He stopped Bobick in the first round when Bobick was supposed to be a serious contender.
Quarry did not hurt Norton badly. That simply is not true.

Quarry gassed out? Like he did both times against Frazier and Ali?
Most of Quarry's career was like. Come out firing. If the other stood up to it, (like Norton did) he went into punching bag mode for several rounds.

You can't use the rusty excuse when you just had a 10-round fight less than 30 days prior.

[margaret thatcher]

Speaking of a month before, Boone Kirkman got ktfo out cold by a 5-20 fighter a month before he fought Kenny? I mean nice points and Kenny was a very good HW and better than Q for sure, but seriously, Boone Kirkman?A past it Larry Middleton ? Not really wins that mean anything at all.

[JohnReed]

Norton has one of the thinnest win resumes in HOF history. His entire reputation is built on him giving Ali fits due entirely to his style. He remains the only HW champ to have never won a championship, literally being gifted his title retroactively based on a gift decision over Young. No, he was not a class above Quarry. If that were the case he would have fought Quarry much earlier for a big payday instead of ducking the matches he was repeatedly offered by Aileen Eaton in order to fight lesser opponents for less money. The memory of getting knocked out cold was still fresh in his mind. If you want to believe Norton was simply “better” than Quarry and thats why he beat him, fair enough. But dismissing the facts that Quarry was in a steep decline, ill trained, took the fight on short notice, etc is nothing more than burying your fanboy head in the sand. All of those points are easily confirmed if you chose to look them up. And again, a fat, out of shape, and rapidly obsolete Quarry still badly hurt Norton and him running for cover before he gassed out. So lets, not pretend that glass jawed Ken Norton was a bridge too far for a prime Quarry.

I didn't deny that Quarry was in athletic decline when he fought Norton. I even acknowledged that he probably wasn't in the best of shape that night either. Did you read my other post about Quarry's 1975 Scrapiron Johnson fight? I indicated that Quarry may have revealed signs of severe burn-out and physical decay even in that bout.

[Ambling Alp II]

Speaking of a month before, Boone Kirkman got ktfo out cold by a 5-20 fighter a month before he fought Kenny? I mean nice points and Kenny was a very good HW and better than Q for sure, but seriously, Boone Kirkman?A past it Larry Middleton ? Not really wins that mean anything at all.

Fair enough. Kirkman did knock down the guy 4 times before getting ko'd himself. Overall, he was a decent fighter. Middleton had given Quarry all that he could handle a few years earlier.I didn't mean to say they were legends or anything. My main point was that Norton did a lot more than the three fights with Ali.