BoxRec

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 19:26

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 19:11
I've never said, that Haye was faster than Jones, you are misinterpretating that comparing of Haye and Jones particularly at the heavyweight division.

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 19:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 16:59 I don't know why, but with Ali we always have to compare how he would have done when he was past his best against someone else in their prime.

He wasn't "flawless" but he was the greatest heavyweight to ever lace up the gloves in his prime.
Ali in his prime (1964-1967) would have beaten Bowe. Bowe would have had trouble hitting him because Ali could move so well. On the other hand, Ali was a very accurate puncher with phenomenal hand speed who would have had very little trouble dealing Bowe's mediocre defense. If they would have fought 5 times during this period, Ali would have beaten him 5 times.

But for the period that is interesting, here we go:
Ali from say 1970-1975 vs a prime Bowe would have been much more competitive. Ali was for awhile, and occasionally was just off after that. That version of Bowe would have been able to land much more often. Bowe would have a serious chance here. The that lost to Norton for example? Would have to pick Bowe. The Ali that beat Foreman? Would have to pick Ali.

Anyone else think Bowe was #12 all time? I think I have him higher than many people and I think that is pushing it.

Now compare the opposition of Ali in 1971 and during those mouthwatering for you in every Ali thread 1964-1967s and try to guess, why Ali's "prime" was exactly in 1964-1967. Frazier alone costs everyone there. Ali has never faced an opponent of Bowe's caliber.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 10:36

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Apr 2020, 19:07

Now compare the opposition of Ali in 1971 and during those mouthwatering for you in every Ali thread 1964-1967s and try to guess, why Ali's "prime" was exactly in 1964-1967. Frazier alone costs everyone there. Ali has never faced an opponent of Bowe's caliber.

Ali's prime was from 1964-1967 because that is when it was. (It would have been longer if it wasn't for Vietnam.) It is pretty easy to pinpoint.
Yes he fought Joe Frazier, a great fighter. He clearly was not in his prime at the time.
Ali had had out of the ring for over 3 and half years. You don't just get that back. Simply watch his fights from 1964-1967 and compare them to when he came back. He was much faster, his reflexes were better. His stamina was better.

Ali never fought a fighter of Bowe's caliber? Seriously? Ever heard of Liston, Frazier, Foreman?

You have Bowe as the #12 heavyweight of all time. Are you seriously going to say that you don't have Joe Frazier and George Foreman in your Top 12 of all time?

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 10:51 I'll tell you one thing, bowe wasn't faster than fotc Frazier.

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 11:29

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 10:51 I'll tell you one thing, bowe wasn't faster than fotc Frazier.

I'd say, they are about the same with this feature.

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 11:29

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 10:36
Ali's prime was from 1964-1967 because that is when it was. (It would have been longer if it wasn't for Vietnam.) It is pretty easy to pinpoint.
Yes he fought Joe Frazier, a great fighter. He clearly was not in his prime at the time.
Ali had had out of the ring for over 3 and half years. You don't just get that back. Simply watch his fights from 1964-1967 and compare them to when he came back. He was much faster, his reflexes were better. His stamina was better.

Ali never fought a fighter of Bowe's caliber? Seriously? Ever heard of Liston, Frazier, Foreman?

You have Bowe as the #12 heavyweight of all time. Are you seriously going to say that you don't have Joe Frazier and George Foreman in your Top 12 of all time?

I was talking about those 1964-1967 years. There Ali didn't fight any fighter, who could be matched with Bowe. Frazier and Foreman are, of course, of that caliber. I rate them higher than Bowe. And Norton too. Liston was great as well, no doubt about that. But Bowe was better, I rate Bowe higher.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 12:10

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 11:29

I'd say, they are about the same with this feature.

You're confusing me with someone that cares what you think.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 15:32

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 11:29

I was talking about those 1964-1967 years. There Ali didn't fight any fighter, who could be matched with Bowe. Frazier and Foreman are, of course, of that caliber. I rate them higher than Bowe. And Norton too. Liston was great as well, no doubt about that. But Bowe was better, I rate Bowe higher.

I (and most people I believe) would say Liston was at least as good as Bowe. In the Top 10 lists that I have seen, Liston often in the Top 10. Most people that don't have him in their top 10, would have him just outside of it. I have never seen Bowe in a top 10. You're #12 for him is the highest I ever seen him rated.
If Liston isn't number 12, you would have to have him what 1#3, #14?
Bowe is much closer to Liston than he to Ali.

You also seem to be confusing Ali's prime to when he fought the majority of his best opponents. Overall, His competition in his prime was pretty good, later it was even better overall.

And Bowe never fought anyone as good as a prime Ali.

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 19:35

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 12:10
You're confusing me with someone that cares what you think.

Why the hell are you replying to my comments then?

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 19:48

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 19:35

Why the hell are you replying to my comments then?

You quoted me.

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:01

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 19:48

You quoted me.

So what? If you really don't give a damn about something, you ignore it. Otherwise, everything is just a cheap talk.

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:11

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:01

So what? If you really don't give a damn about something, you ignore it. Otherwise, everything is just a cheap talk.

Dukie - everything here is cheap talk. Get over yourself.

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:15

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:11
Dukie - everything here is cheap talk. Get over yourself.

Of course, it is. But if you comment it, you're interested in it, no matter how much you deny the fact of your interest, like the troll above does.

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:16

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:15

Of course, it is. But if you comment it, you're interested in it, no matter how much you deny the fact of your interest, like the troll above does.

OTO may be harsh, but he's no troll. You seem to like him when you two agree. Sounds pretty selective.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑24 Apr 2020, 20:46 Oog playing protector

AntonioMartin wrote: ↑15 Sep 2020, 09:45 There is an ocean of difference in talent between a prime Ali and a prime Bowe.

Ali by wide UD or late KO IMO>

elmersalsa wrote: ↑15 Sep 2020, 20:44

AntonioMartin wrote: ↑15 Sep 2020, 09:45 There is an ocean of difference in talent between a prime Ali and a prime Bowe.

Ali by wide UD or late KO IMO>

An ocean of difference of talent between The Greatest and Big Daddy Bowe? Naaah!, I don't agree with that. Bowe is one of the most talented big men that I have seen in 40 plus years. I think that he was as good as Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes in terms of skill. Bowe Achilles' hill was that he was lazy. Maybe too lazy. But, he could fight!