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Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:03
by AntonioMartin
Actually I dont think Hakkar embarrassed himself...I gained respect for him after that bout. He went 8 rounds??/
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:05
by gilgamesh
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:03
Actually I dont think Hakkar embarrassed himself...I gained respect for him after that bout. He went 8 rounds??/
Did you watch the fight? He embarrassed the sh*t out of himself. He literally RAN the entire first round. I know a lot of guys use that to refer to Mayweather's style or other defensive minded guys.
But no. This motherf*cker literally threw ZERO punches, and RAN from Hopkins. Like a punch from Hopkins was being swung by anvil fists or something, and his life depended on it.
It was a joke.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:06
by AntonioMartin
Dart340 wrote: ↑05 May 2020, 17:18
Eddie Ndukwu against Wilfredo Gomez
The WBC agreed with you so it was downgraded to a 10 round bout instead.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:08
by AntonioMartin
gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:05
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:03
Actually I dont think Hakkar embarrassed himself...I gained respect for him after that bout. He went 8 rounds??/
Did you watch the fight?
Yes I did...it was on HBO. He didnt win a round but I expected it to be over much sooner. Wasn't this fight in Portland, Oregon or a place like that IIRC?
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:08
by oogiebe
gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:05
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:03
Actually I dont think Hakkar embarrassed himself...I gained respect for him after that bout. He went 8 rounds??/
Did you watch the fight? He embarrassed the sh*t out of himself. He literally RAN the entire first round. I know a lot of guys use that to refer to Mayweather's style or other defensive minded guys.
But no. This motherf*cker literally threw ZERO punches, and RAN from Hopkins. Like a punch from Hopkins was being swung by anvil fists or something, and his life depended on it.
It was a joke.
It was worse than a joke. It was a disgrace.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:12
by AntonioMartin
Francisco Quiroz vs Lupe Madera, WBA world JUnior Flyweight title in May (June?) 1984.....and he won in a war actually...
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:12
by gilgamesh
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:08
gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:05
Did you watch the fight?
Yes I did...it was on HBO. He didnt win a round but I expected it to be over much sooner. Wasn't this fight in Portland, Oregon or a place like that IIRC?
I wanna say it was in Reading, Pennsylvania or something, and everyone thought it was odd that the much more competitively matched Tua vs Rahman 2 was the co-feature, and not the main event.
I'm sure it was somewhere in Pennsylvania because the only reason the Hopkins fight was Main Event is because he was a defending World Champion, and he was from the state.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 06 May 2020, 21:13
by AntonioMartin
gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:05
It was worse than a joke. It was a disgrace.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 07:37
by Flump
Probably 75% of all challengers, and a fair few champions in WBO title fights in the 90's.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 08:03
by Woldemar
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑06 May 2020, 21:06
Dart340 wrote: ↑05 May 2020, 17:18
Eddie Ndukwu against Wilfredo Gomez
The WBC agreed with you so it was downgraded to a 10 round bout instead.
Ndukwu beat former WBC champ Kotey by UD .
It helped him take a title shot
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 09:37
by scartissue
Today, of course, its quite easy to get a title shot with at least 4 'champs' looking for work. There are those from years ago who clearly did not deserve a title shot, such as Roger Rouse (against Bob Foster), Tommy Hicks (also against Foster) and Tony Fischer against Babe Risko. But at least gave some form of effort. But I was amazed recently at watching Mike Lee with his glistening 21-0 record against Caleb Plant. What I was amazed at in the first round was that Lee didn't even know how to fight. Plant was very generous in allowing him to stay until the 3rd round.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 09:42
by Tony1244
Jean Pierre Coopman
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 10:11
by sweetsci
Someone mentioned Leroy Jones. I think that one is excusable. While Jones didn't really "earn" a shot - yeah, he beat Mike Weaver and Dino Denis - he was a lower top-10 contender for a few years going into the Holmes fight.
I think Richard Dunn is excusable, too. He was British and Commonwealth champ, had scored wins over contender Bunny Johnson and Danny McAlinden, and, unlike other Ali challengers, hadn't lost in two years.
Not all challengers should have to be in the top-5. Champions deserve an "easy" defense from time to time. But some guys just did not deserve to be in there with the world champion. Here are some undeserving challengers:
Scott Frank vs. Holmes - All Frank had done, and would ever do, was beat an old Chuck Wepner, an older Ron Stander, and draw with Renaldo Snipes. That's not enough.
George Chuvalo vs. Ali - George was 1-2 in his last 3, including a loss to the now pretty much forgotten Eduardo Corletti in his previous fight two months before. I'm sure the promoter's need for a last-minute sub influenced the decision to bring in Chuvalo. And Chuvalo could fill the seats in Toronto.
Brian London vs. Ali - Thad Spencer had beaten London three months before. Why not give Spencer the shot?
Possibly Ron Lyle vs. Ali - Lyle had just lost to Jimmy Young three months before. Still, his resume at that point was better than Young's, the bout was already set (I think), and so I think this one is forgivable. In hindsight I wish Riddick Bowe had taken this route and still fought Ray Mercer in May 1993.
Jean-Pierre Coopman vs. Ali - Coopman had done nothing to establish himself on the world stage and never would.
Alfredo Evangelista vs. Ali - Evangelista had just lost to Lorenzo Zanon three months before. How come he still got the title shot? Why not Zanon if Ali was looking for a soft touch following the Norton fight?
Leon Spinks vs. Ali - C'mon! This was nearly like Patterson - Rademacher all over again. Spinks came in with all of 7 bouts worth of experience, including a draw with Scott LeDoux. To his credit, Spinks took the opportunity and ran with it, scoring one of the biggest upsets ever.
Jesse Ferguson vs. Bowe - Okay, so Ferguson upset the apple cart in beating Mercer. But he'd recently lost to Tubbs, Dokes (!!!), Seldon, and McCall, and his only recent victory of note was the win over Mercer.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 10:41
by Woldemar
Dmitriy Salita
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 12:48
by Duran1970
sweetsci wrote: ↑07 May 2020, 10:11
Someone mentioned Leroy Jones. I think that one is excusable. While Jones didn't really "earn" a shot - yeah, he beat Mike Weaver and Dino Denis - he was a lower top-10 contender for a few years going into the Holmes fight.
I think Richard Dunn is excusable, too. He was British and Commonwealth champ, had scored wins over contender Bunny Johnson and Danny McAlinden, and, unlike other Ali challengers, hadn't lost in two years.
Not all challengers should have to be in the top-5. Champions deserve an "easy" defense from time to time. But some guys just did not deserve to be in there with the world champion. Here are some undeserving challengers:
Scott Frank vs. Holmes - All Frank had done, and would ever do, was beat an old Chuck Wepner, an older Ron Stander, and draw with Renaldo Snipes. That's not enough.
George Chuvalo vs. Ali - George was 1-2 in his last 3, including a loss to the now pretty much forgotten Eduardo Corletti in his previous fight two months before. I'm sure the promoter's need for a last-minute sub influenced the decision to bring in Chuvalo. And Chuvalo could fill the seats in Toronto.
Brian London vs. Ali - Thad Spencer had beaten London three months before. Why not give Spencer the shot?
Possibly Ron Lyle vs. Ali - Lyle had just lost to Jimmy Young three months before. Still, his resume at that point was better than Young's, the bout was already set (I think), and so I think this one is forgivable. In hindsight I wish Riddick Bowe had taken this route and still fought Ray Mercer in May 1993.
Jean-Pierre Coopman vs. Ali - Coopman had done nothing to establish himself on the world stage and never would.
Alfredo Evangelista vs. Ali - Evangelista had just lost to Lorenzo Zanon three months before. How come he still got the title shot? Why not Zanon if Ali was looking for a soft touch following the Norton fight?
Leon Spinks vs. Ali - C'mon! This was nearly like Patterson - Rademacher all over again. Spinks came in with all of 7 bouts worth of experience, including a draw with Scott LeDoux. To his credit, Spinks took the opportunity and ran with it, scoring one of the biggest upsets ever.
Jesse Ferguson vs. Bowe - Okay, so Ferguson upset the apple cart in beating Mercer. But he'd recently lost to Tubbs, Dokes (!!!), Seldon, and McCall, and his only recent victory of note was the win over Mercer.
Chuvalo was a perennial Top ten ranked heavyweight every yr from 63 onward and at the end of 65 was ranked 3rd..hardly unworthy.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 13:05
by sweetsci
I guess I'm looking at the timing of the Chuvalo fight, coming after losses. He was definitely a worthy fighter who deserved a shot somewhere along the line.
Maybe we need a thread about guys who got their title shots at the wrong time - too late (Liston, Cleveland Williams, Folley), too early (Witherspoon (maybe), Marvis Frazier, David Bey), or worthy fighters who got their shots after losses (Chuvalo, Lyle).
Edit: Oh, and Chuvalo may have been #3 at the end of 1965, per Ring, but Ring ranked him #9, the WBA ranked him #10, and Boxing Illustrated ranked him #7 going into the Ali fight.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 13:08
by zuru
Sweetsci
Leon Spinks vs. Ali - C'mon! This was nearly like Patterson - Rademacher all over again. Spinks came in with all of 7 bouts worth of experience, including a draw with Scott LeDoux. To his credit, Spinks took the opportunity and ran with it, scoring one of the biggest upsets ever.
I always thought Ali threw the fight to become the 1st 3x Heavyweight Champion.Just my thoughts.
And true Champions should have an occasional defense against less than top 3
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 15:36
by Jeff_lacy_ko
sweetsci wrote: ↑07 May 2020, 10:11
Someone mentioned Leroy Jones. I think that one is excusable. While Jones didn't really "earn" a shot - yeah, he beat Mike Weaver and Dino Denis - he was a lower top-10 contender for a few years going into the Holmes fight.
I think Richard Dunn is excusable, too. He was British and Commonwealth champ, had scored wins over contender Bunny Johnson and Danny McAlinden, and, unlike other Ali challengers, hadn't lost in two years.
Not all challengers should have to be in the top-5. Champions deserve an "easy" defense from time to time. But some guys just did not deserve to be in there with the world champion. Here are some undeserving challengers:
Scott Frank vs. Holmes - All Frank had done, and would ever do, was beat an old Chuck Wepner, an older Ron Stander, and draw with Renaldo Snipes. That's not enough.
George Chuvalo vs. Ali - George was 1-2 in his last 3, including a loss to the now pretty much forgotten Eduardo Corletti in his previous fight two months before. I'm sure the promoter's need for a last-minute sub influenced the decision to bring in Chuvalo. And Chuvalo could fill the seats in Toronto.
Brian London vs. Ali - Thad Spencer had beaten London three months before. Why not give Spencer the shot?
Possibly Ron Lyle vs. Ali - Lyle had just lost to Jimmy Young three months before. Still, his resume at that point was better than Young's, the bout was already set (I think), and so I think this one is forgivable. In hindsight I wish Riddick Bowe had taken this route and still fought Ray Mercer in May 1993.
Jean-Pierre Coopman vs. Ali - Coopman had done nothing to establish himself on the world stage and never would.
Alfredo Evangelista vs. Ali - Evangelista had just lost to Lorenzo Zanon three months before. How come he still got the title shot? Why not Zanon if Ali was looking for a soft touch following the Norton fight?
Leon Spinks vs. Ali - C'mon! This was nearly like Patterson - Rademacher all over again. Spinks came in with all of 7 bouts worth of experience, including a draw with Scott LeDoux. To his credit, Spinks took the opportunity and ran with it, scoring one of the biggest upsets ever.
Jesse Ferguson vs. Bowe - Okay, so Ferguson upset the apple cart in beating Mercer. But he'd recently lost to Tubbs, Dokes (!!!), Seldon, and McCall, and his only recent victory of note was the win over Mercer.
In hausers book on ali there is an interesting story on coopman. The promoters hired some old fat middleweight for sparring and in front of the media this guy kicked coopmans butt. Afterwards the promoters told this fighter that he couldn't embarass coopman and he said "i wasnt even trying hard!" After that sparring was closed to the media
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 17:24
by Nile4000
zuru wrote: ↑07 May 2020, 13:08
Sweetsci
Leon Spinks vs. Ali - C'mon! This was nearly like Patterson - Rademacher all over again. Spinks came in with all of 7 bouts worth of experience, including a draw with Scott LeDoux. To his credit, Spinks took the opportunity and ran with it, scoring one of the biggest upsets ever.
I always thought Ali threw the fight to become the 1st 3x Heavyweight Champion.Just my thoughts.
And true Champions should have an occasional defense against less than top 3
Ali was showing signs of illness back then. Be very hard to throw that fight.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 07 May 2020, 20:00
by zuru
That could be it's been soo long since I saw it but that was always my thinking.
But to support your thought,i recently watched Ali vs Holmes and was shocked at Ali's condition.He shouldn't have been allowed in the ring at all.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 08 May 2020, 14:06
by goose 5
Mike Peak versus Virgil Hill.
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 08 May 2020, 14:48
by giacomino
William Joppy vs Shumenov (Joppy was 40, and 0-2-1 in his previous three fights and nearly a decade removed from having an middleweight alphabet belt)
Daniel Santiago v Shumenov (Got Ko'd by Erdei and Tarver, fought two nobodies over the next four years, and was 38)
Tamas Kovacs vs Shumenov (was 36, record of 23-0 against sub-clubfighters outside the top 150 in the division)
Junior Anthony Wright vs Shumenov (14-1 fighter who had gotten KO'd in his only meaningful fight the previous year)
*** The worst Hizni Altunkaya vs Shumenov (30-1 record against horrific competition in Germany, Ko'd in 5 in his first meaningful fight the previous year, loses every round vs Shumenov, then lasts less than three rounds against an ancient Lebedev)
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 08 May 2020, 14:57
by giacomino
Jorge Mata, 8-0-1 against opposition with a combined 26-55 record. Wins the WBO 105-pound belt because opponent is even worse
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 08 May 2020, 17:30
by dr_devious
Howard Clarke
Re: Fighters that shouldn't have been in Title fights
Posted: 09 May 2020, 06:35
by Onetimeonly
zuru wrote: ↑07 May 2020, 13:08
Sweetsci
Leon Spinks vs. Ali - C'mon! This was nearly like Patterson - Rademacher all over again. Spinks came in with all of 7 bouts worth of experience, including a draw with Scott LeDoux. To his credit, Spinks took the opportunity and ran with it, scoring one of the biggest upsets ever.
I always thought Ali threw the fight to become the 1st 3x Heavyweight Champion.Just my thoughts.
And true Champions should have an occasional defense against less than top 3
Who throws a fight in that kind of war?