BoxRec

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 12:31**

rio wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 11:54
Fightnight Scores wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 11:37
Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 10:56 I think of elite as being P4P top 5-10, and world level as being the consensus top 4 or 5 fighters in each division.

Just being in the top 10 of a random rankings body, or just managing to hear the final bell in a losing world title challenge, isn’t enough for me, otherwise you end up with guys like Martin Murray or John Ryder being called world class, which is far too generous imo.
Sounds the most logical case put forward
Very well put. I agree with that. Dont think anyone not associated with Campbell/Matchroom has ever had him top 5 in the lightweight division.

I’m not associated with either. At the time he took Linares to a split, i can’t remember if he was top five.

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 12:31**

was kev mitchell world class

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 12:35**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 12:31 was kev mitchell world class

Fringe for a very short period of time.

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 15:10**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 12:35
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 12:31 was kev mitchell world class
Fringe for a very short period of time.

No chance. He looked world class at domestic level and very good at Euro level but he got knocked out the 3 times he stepped up to genuine world level. His best win was Murray.

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 15:55**

mercman wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 15:15 John Conteh was world class.

He certainly was.

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 16:29**

I think if Josh Taylor keeps his head screwed on he could be potentially brilliant and go down as one of the best British fighters of all time. I think he's incredibly talented and stands out above the rest for me. Other than that our heavyweights are pretty good, Joe Joyce being highly underrated IMO.

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 23:02**

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 10:56 I think of elite as being P4P top 5-10, and world level as being the consensus top 4 or 5 fighters in each division.

Just being in the top 10 of a random rankings body, or just managing to hear the final bell in a losing world title challenge, isn’t enough for me, otherwise you end up with guys like Martin Murray or John Ryder being called world class, which is far too generous imo.

Martin Murray was one bad decision away from being "the middleweight champ" so I would say he was world class.

Posted: **23 Feb 2021, 23:03**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 12:31
rio wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 11:54
Fightnight Scores wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 11:37

Sounds the most logical case put forward
Very well put. I agree with that. Dont think anyone not associated with Campbell/Matchroom has ever had him top 5 in the lightweight division.
I’m not associated with either. At the time he took Linares to a split, i can’t remember if he was top five.

Hard to think the version that fought Lomachenko and Linares and even Garcia wasn't world class.

Posted: **24 Feb 2021, 06:33**

As others have said, a Top 10 world ranking in your division(or thereabouts) makes you world class. That a world class fighter now might have been a bang average jobber in other eras is testament to boxing having zero depth nowadays.

Posted: **24 Feb 2021, 06:57**

rio wrote: ↑22 Feb 2021, 21:17
mickey1975 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2021, 17:00
rio wrote: ↑22 Feb 2021, 16:33 Luke Campbell was never and will never be world class. Loses everytime he steps beyond euro level and has even lost at euro level. He's similar to Josh Kelly.....looks elite at domestic level but struggles when he steps up.
Distance with Loma, split with Linares, dropped Garcia, he’s World class.

Yes he lost all 3 fights convincingly. How does losing make you world class. To be world class you have to beat someone world class unless you are applying the Paul smith logic.

He didn’t lose the Linares fight convincingly. I had him nicking it by a single point & it was a split decision.

I don’t know if I go along with that theory. Take Macklin, Murray & Barker.

Does Barker get remembered as world class & the other two don’t? Just because he won a debateable decision? I had Geale defeating him 114-113, I had Macklin beating Sturm 116-112 & I had Murray defeating Martinez.

I think Campbell’s a better fighter than all 3 of them by the way. I just think he’ll end up unlucky in that he’s in a tougher division than they were & he got his best shot a fortnight after his dad died of cancer.

Posted: **24 Feb 2021, 18:08**

Campbell got beat off Mendy. He them lost a competitive decision to linares. He lost every round to Loma then got knocked out by an unproven but world class Garcia. Barker has a world level win. He was a far better fighter then Campbell.....much tougher and more determine fighter.

Posted: **24 Feb 2021, 18:42**

rio wrote: ↑24 Feb 2021, 18:08 Campbell got beat off Mendy. He them lost a competitive decision to linares. He lost every round to Loma then got knocked out by an unproven but world class Garcia. Barker has a world level win. He was a far better fighter then Campbell.....much tougher and more determine fighter.

He got stopped by Martinez and Sturm. Tarnished his career for me against Sturm.

Posted: **24 Feb 2021, 22:18**

Fightnight Scores wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 09:50
world ranked wrote: ↑22 Feb 2021, 19:52 This is a arguement I been making since I became a boxing fan. There's a difference between world class and elite. Perfect example is Canelo vs Callum Smith.
This is a valid point. Despite it being subjective, it's also got to be decided on relative to the standard of the division.
If someone is "world class" it must mean at a level to challenge for and obtain a world title. The fact there are various world titles makes this level easier to accomplish.

If there was only 1 world title and talking about capability to challenge or be in the top 10 of a single ranking structure it becomes much harder and to be a challenger in the top 2,3,4 contenders that would be elite level.

There was a time around 10 years ago when there were I think it was 7 British world champions! Fighters like Enzo Mac , Gavin Rees, Junior Witter....they got to their titles probably through well being managed. Were they really world class?

Were they competitive with other world class guys I say for Witter he was one point away from beating borderline HOF Tim Bradley and the way he destructed Vivian Harris thats clear to me. Rees probably not and Enzo going into Haye fight I say yes.

Posted: **26 Feb 2021, 09:50**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑24 Feb 2021, 18:42
rio wrote: ↑24 Feb 2021, 18:08 Campbell got beat off Mendy. He them lost a competitive decision to linares. He lost every round to Loma then got knocked out by an unproven but world class Garcia. Barker has a world level win. He was a far better fighter then Campbell.....much tougher and more determine fighter.
He got stopped by Martinez and Sturm. Tarnished his career for me against Sturm.

Agree with you 100% about the Sturm fight. Complete cash out/con job. However If I put myself in his shoes......basically your body is knackered but you have a 750k (approx I think)payday which will be your last ever.....I would have done the same. Dont blame him for it but he has to accept the backlash.
However unlike Campbell he did dig deep when it mattered and beat a very good fighter in Geale. Think that fight emptied the tank for both fighters, neither were the same again. Campbell has never quite been good enough. Looks the part at domestic level with his speed but when he comes up against a top fighter hes always been found wanting. You could maybe say he's a very poor man's Khan.

Posted: **26 Feb 2021, 10:03**

Campbell definitely won some rounds vs Loma

Posted: **26 Feb 2021, 10:25**

emallini wrote: ↑26 Feb 2021, 10:03 Campbell definitely won some rounds vs Loma

109-118, 108-119x2......technically your correct he won 2/3 rounds. But was completely outclassed and was in survival mode by the end of the fight. Campbell is a top 10-15 lightweight.

Posted: **26 Feb 2021, 16:30**

rio wrote: ↑26 Feb 2021, 10:25
emallini wrote: ↑26 Feb 2021, 10:03 Campbell definitely won some rounds vs Loma
109-118, 108-119x2......technically your correct he won 2/3 rounds. But was completely outclassed and was in survival mode by the end of the fight. Campbell is a top 10-15 lightweight.

I thought that he was competitive in most rounds.

Posted: **26 Feb 2021, 17:01**

but he gave linares hell

Posted: **26 Feb 2021, 18:24**

world ranked wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 23:02
Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 10:56 I think of elite as being P4P top 5-10, and world level as being the consensus top 4 or 5 fighters in each division.

Just being in the top 10 of a random rankings body, or just managing to hear the final bell in a losing world title challenge, isn’t enough for me, otherwise you end up with guys like Martin Murray or John Ryder being called world class, which is far too generous imo.
Martin Murray was one bad decision away from being "the middleweight champ" so I would say he was world class.

Na murrays a gatekeeper. Good but never an elite.

Posted: **02 Mar 2021, 11:01**

rio wrote: ↑24 Feb 2021, 18:08 Campbell got beat off Mendy. He them lost a competitive decision to linares. He lost every round to Loma then got knocked out by an unproven but world class Garcia. Barker has a world level win. He was a far better fighter then Campbell.....much tougher and more determine fighter.

You conveniently don't mention he avenged the loss to Mendy, beat two former world champions (Mendez and Perez), gave Lomachenko a tough fight, I had him winning the Linares fight by a point it was very close, heavily dropped Garcia, won Gold and Silver medals at every major tournament in the amateurs , and is just an all round quality boxer.

He is definitely world class.

Posted: **05 Mar 2021, 18:58**

i think Felix Cash has potential, fizgearld did not not sure now

Posted: **05 Mar 2021, 19:28**

world ranked wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 23:02
Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 10:56 I think of elite as being P4P top 5-10, and world level as being the consensus top 4 or 5 fighters in each division.

Just being in the top 10 of a random rankings body, or just managing to hear the final bell in a losing world title challenge, isn’t enough for me, otherwise you end up with guys like Martin Murray or John Ryder being called world class, which is far too generous imo.
Martin Murray was one bad decision away from being "the middleweight champ" so I would say he was world class.

I’d agree that Murray was world class as he edged two fights where all the cards were stacked against him but got robbed on the scorecards and gave a very good account of himself in nearly going the distance against a peak GGG who was destroying everybody in that part of his career.

But to cloud the issue Macklin too was one bad decision away from being middleweight champ but surely he was never world class or even fringe.

Posted: **05 Mar 2021, 19:30**

he did not get robbed against sturm or AA, i had him losing both, was surprised he got a draw vs sturm

macklin did get robbed against sturm though

Posted: **05 Mar 2021, 19:31**

CaptainSpacerod wrote: ↑05 Mar 2021, 19:28
world ranked wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 23:02
Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑23 Feb 2021, 10:56 I think of elite as being P4P top 5-10, and world level as being the consensus top 4 or 5 fighters in each division.

Just being in the top 10 of a random rankings body, or just managing to hear the final bell in a losing world title challenge, isn’t enough for me, otherwise you end up with guys like Martin Murray or John Ryder being called world class, which is far too generous imo.
Martin Murray was one bad decision away from being "the middleweight champ" so I would say he was world class.
I’d agree that Murray was world class as he edged two fights where all the cards were stacked against him but got robbed on the scorecards and gave a very good account of himself in nearly going the distance against a peak GGG who was destroying everybody in that part of his career.

But to cloud the issue Macklin too was one bad decision away from being middleweight champ but surely he was never world class or even fringe.

both were . funny watching macklin v strum you realise how good macklin was really good fight won it in my eyes,

Posted: **05 Mar 2021, 20:55**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑05 Mar 2021, 19:30 he did not get robbed against sturm or AA, i had him losing both, was surprised he got a draw vs sturm

macklin did get robbed against sturm though

From memory I felt Murray was robbed against sturm but I’m perfectly prepared to admit that maybe my judgement was clouded by the no doubt hysterical sky commentary. The other fight I was referring to was the Martinez fight in Argentina not the AA one, I’d totally forgotten the aa one.

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