BoxRec

Bandog wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 20:24

Canelo was in his 20's, prime age when he fought FMJ who was 36 or 37!!! Canelo had over 40 fights as a professional at that point. Floyd and others have pointed out their prime/best was in their 20's.

Lackeos wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 19:38

Fightdoctor wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 16:53 Don't tell me Canelo was inexperienced. He had been pro for 8 years

Alvarez was most definitely not in his prime yet. At this point in his career, he had pretty close to 0 uncontroversial wins against divisional top 5 opponents, and I don't think there was a consensus that he was top 10 p4p yet. Also, there is a huge difference between someone turning pro at age 15 and being pro for 8 years vs someone like Lomanchenko turning pro at age 25 and then being pro for 8 years. Saul's first 6 years of being pro were pretty much his amateur career. Just like how Manny Pacquiao turned pro at 15, and somehow, 8 years into his pro career, he still hadn't cracked the top 10 p4p, and was a one-weight, one-belt world champ with only 2 title defenses.

Fightdoctor wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 16:53 having destroyed numerous former or current world champs.

And he certainly didn't destroy numerous current world champs. He literally only had 1 official win against a reigning world champ, and it was a decision win that many regarded as an unofficial loss. So that would mean he destroyed 0 current world champs going into the Mayweather fight. By the way, what exactly is the value of beating a former champ without the context of that fighter's current state? David Avanesyan beat former champ Shane Mosley, but would he have been some career-defining scalp for Mayweather? Sadam Ali beat former champ Miguel Cotto, but does that mean anyone who beats Sadam Ali is now a legend that Saul Alvarez could never hope to surpass?

Fightdoctor wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 16:53You can't erase the past!

And by that, you mean that fighters like Pacquiao and Hopkins can never do anything to prove that they've improved beyond the early pre-prime losses of their career, no matter who they beat later on? When Hopkins was 23, he lost to debutant Clinton Mitchell, but he can't do anything henceforth to prove that his abilities have grown beyond Clinton Mitchell's? No matter what Pacquiao does, he can never prove that he's grown beyond his pre-prime defeat against Rustico Torrecampo?

Lackeos wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 00:42

Bandog wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 20:24

Canelo was in his 20's, prime age when he fought FMJ who was 36 or 37!!! Canelo had over 40 fights as a professional at that point. Floyd and others have pointed out their prime/best was in their 20's.

A fighter usually hits their absolute peak ability sometime around age 27-31. You're saying "20's" as though 20 and 29 are the same, but they are worlds apart.

Alvarez turned pro at age 15, so like I said, the first 6 years of his pro career were functionally his amateur career. Usyk turned pro at age 26, Lomanchenko turned pro at age 25, Lara debuted at age 25. It is pretty common for western hemisphere boxers to turn pro around age 20. Alvarez's amateur experience just happened to count as pro fights. From his 20th birthday, Alvarez only had 9 more pro fights before fighting Mayweather. While you're fascinated with Alvarez's 40 pro fights, you're missing the fact that he DIDN'T have 100+ amateur fights like a lot of other fighters do. When Mayweather was 23, the total number of lifetime amateur + pro fights he participated in was 115, and even then, he was only fighting opponents like Carlos Gerena and Justin Juuko at that point in his career. When Alvarez turned 23, the total number of lifetime amateur + pro fights he participated in was 88, still 27 fewer than Mayweather at that age, and he was fighting a far higher caliber of competition (Mayweather was fighting guys who were divisional #45 and 65 at that age).

brilo33 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 20:20 saul in his prime would beat mayweather i think if they had rematched 5 years down the line

brilo33 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 20:20 saul in his prime would beat mayweather i think if they had rematched 5 years down the line

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 08:36

brilo33 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 20:20 saul in his prime would beat mayweather i think if they had rematched 5 years down the line

Canelo would never have beaten Money May at 154lbs or less.

And Money May would never have agreed to compete at 160lbs, because he was just too damn small.

Despite Canelo being the very best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet competing today, he usually loses three or four rounds to opponents that are vastly inferior than Money May.

And the past-his-prime version of Floyd hurt his hand when he fought Canelo and yet he still managed to cruise to victory, arguably winning almost every single round.

So whilst it’s an undeniable fact that today’s iteration of Canelo is superior than the 2013 version that got dominated by Floyd Mayweather Jr, I honestly don’t think he’s improved enough to have beaten a prime Money May at 154lbs or less.

apollo creed wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 11:49 Floyd was a genius in terms of timing his future fights but let's be honest and admit that in 2007,2008 and 2009 when prime top welters like Mosley, Cotto, Margarito and Pacquiao were fighting each other, FMJ was going on another route.

apollo creed wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 13:01 Son, I was talking when the division was hot!
When Margo beat Cotto, Floyd didn't fight him!
When Cotto beat Mosley, Floyd didn't fight him!
When Pac was battering Oscar, Cotto, Clottey and Margo, Floyd didn't fight him!

apollo creed wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 14:44 son you sound like a parrot with ocd, with these kind of c&p posts.

apollo creed wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 11:44Floyd was a master at timing his future fights. Floyd didn't fight Kostya Tszyu, prime Margo, prime Pacquiao or prime Cotto.

apollo creed wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 11:44Floyd fought a past-prime Oscar in a close fight and one year later Pacquiao battered ODLH.
Also Floyd fought a 2005 Arturo Gatti that was stopped by ODLH in 2001. lol

Latino Canelo is gonna overshadow Floyd.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑07 Oct 2020, 12:07 Let's evaluate Floyd Mayweather Jr's career...

• Possesses an unblemished 50-0 professional record, with 27 KO’s
• Competed in 29 world title fights (if we include the lineal championship as well)
• Has gained world titles in five weight divisions (super featherweight, lightweight, light welterweight, welterweight & light middleweight)
• Has won twelve world title belts from the big four governing bodies
• Has consistently been ranked amongst the top ten pound-for-pound Ring Magazine rankings during his career
• Was the Ring Magazine’s fighter of the year in 1998 & 2007
• 24 of his victories have come against 22 former world champions
• Floyd achieved a 17-fight winning streak against former/current world champions when he defeated Andre Berto, a run which commenced a decade prior (against Arturo Gatti [25/06/2005])
• Floyd Mayweather Jr. has been a professional boxer for two decades
• Money May won his first world title fight 17 years prior to his final world championship bout, by defeating Genaro Hernandez (a Hall-of-Fame nominee, a man who had competed in 15 world title bouts, had only previously been defeated by Oscar De La Hoya [in a weight class that was not his natural habitat] and who also boasted a victory against an all-time-great [Azumah Nelson])
• Ring Magazine rates Floyd Mayweather Jr. in 12th position of its pound-for-pound “Best-of-Modern Times” list (based on the votes of 20 boxing experts to determine the Top 20 fighters since World War II)
• Based on the aggregated totals of all fights on his resume, the average Floyd Mayweather Jr. opponent lands a mere 16% of punches thrown, this is the lowest collective figure recorded in CompuBox's 4,000-fight database (as of May 2014)
• Mayweather had the best plus/minus rating of any fighter (as of September 2014), which is a measure of the variance between Floyd’s own connect rate and that of his opponents’ (in other words, a gauge of the “Hit and don't get hit” old adage)
• BoxRec considers Floyd Mayweather Jr. the greatest of all time

In terms of Floyd Mayweather Jr’s final sixteen opponents of his career:

• Six were top-ten ranked pound-for-pounders at the time he faced them (Manny Pacquiao [3rd]; Saul Alvarez [10th]; Shane Mosley [3rd]; Juan Manuel Marquez [2nd]; Ricky Hatton [8th] and Diego Corrales [5th])
• Five are dead-cert first ballot Hall-of-Famers (Juan Manuel Marquez, Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley; Miguel Cotto and Manny Pacquiao)
• Fifteen opponents were world champions during their careers
• Two are currently ranked in the top-ten pound-for-pound list and are also current world title holders (Canelo Alvarez [fighter of the year 2019] and Manny Pacquiao)
• Ten held world titles in multiple weight divisions (Zab Judah; Juan Manuel Marquez; Ricky Hatton; Oscar De La Hoya; Manny Pacquiao; Marcos Maidana; Saul Alvarez; Robert Guerrero; Miguel Cotto; and Shane Mosley)

At least twelve of the fighters Floyd Mayweather Jr. faced were fighters that became Hall-of-Fame inductees or at least good enough to be included in the nominees listed in the annual IBHoF voting ballot:

• Arturo Gatti
• Oscar De La Hoya
• Juan Manuel Márquez
• Canelo
• Manny Pacquiao
• Genaro Hernández
• Jose Luis Castillo
• Diego Corrales
• Ricky Hatton
• Shane Mosley
• Miguel Cotto
• Zab Judah

According to Ring Magazine, the following fighters were considered top-ten pound-for-pounders at the time of their fights against Floyd Mayweather Jr.:

World Titles:
• WBC Super Featherweight Title (1998-2002; 8 defenses)
• WBC Lightweight Title (2002-2004; 3 defenses)
• WBC Super Lightweight Title (2005; 0 defenses)
• IBF Welterweight Title (2006; 0 defenses)
• (2) WBC Welterweight Title (2006-2008; 1 defense, 2011-2015; 5 defenses)
• (2) WBC Super Welterweight Title (2007; 0 defenses, 2013-2015; 1 defense)
• WBA Super Welterweight Super Title (2012-2016; 1 defense)
• WBA Welterweight Super Title (2014-2016; 3 defenses)
• WBO Welterweight Title (2015; 0 defenses)

Unified Titles:
• Unified Junior Middleweight Title (2013-2015; WBA, WBC)
• (2) Unified Welterweight Title (2014-2015; WBC, WBA, 2015; WBC, WBA, WBO)
• Simultaneously held WBC Welterweight Title and WBC Junior Middleweight Title (2007)
• Simultaneously held WBC Welterweight Title and WBA Junior Middleweight Title (2012-2015)
• Simultaneously held WBC Welterweight Title and Unified Junior Middleweight Title (WBA, WBC) (2013-2015)
• Simultaneously held Unified Welterweight Title (WBC, WBA) and Unified Junior Middleweight Title (WBA, WBC) (2014-2015)
• Simultaneously held Unified Welterweight Title (WBC, WBA, WBO) and Unified Junior Middleweight Title (WBA, WBC) (2015)

The Ring Magazine Titles:
• World Lightweight Title (2002-2004)
• (2) World Welterweight Title (2006-2008, 2013-2015)
• World Junior Middleweight Title (2013-2015)

Lineal Titles:
• World Junior Lightweight Title (1998-2002)
• World Lightweight Title (2002-2004)
• (2) World Welterweight Title (2006-2008, 2010-2015)
• World Junior Middleweight Title (2013-2015)

apollo creed wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 14:14 Bottom line is FMJ didn't fight 2009-2010 version of Pacquiao !

FmJ also had a close fight with an over the hill ODLH and beat a 2005 Gatti that was stopped in 2001 by ODLH.

Facts!

Canelo was and he's willing to fight often and take risky fights like Lara, Trout, GGG, Jacobs and now a top CW champion.

NateJR wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 07:46

apollo creed wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 14:14 Bottom line is FMJ didn't fight 2009-2010 version of Pacquiao !

FmJ also had a close fight with an over the hill ODLH and beat a 2005 Gatti that was stopped in 2001 by ODLH.

Facts!

Canelo was and he's willing to fight often and take risky fights like Lara, Trout, GGG, Jacobs and now a top CW champion.

Pacquiao didn't fight a 2009-2010 Mayweather either.

Floyd also moved up in weight and fought ODLH at 154 where ODLH was a champion and adhered to all of DLHs stipulations. It was a close fight, but a clear win by Floyd. Not like Pacquaio who fought DLH at a weight he hadnt fought at for over 7 years a year and a half later than Floyd.

But I guess fighting Canelo, DLH, Mosley, Pacquaio, Corrales, Castillo, Cotto, Hatton weren't risky fights. They would have been risky fights for anyone else, but not for Floyd. Man, you're delusional if you honestly believe Floyd took the path of least resistance his entire career and took no risks.

Evander wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 00:34 He overshadows all of those boxers because he's better than them right now, he's earned top spot.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 08:36

brilo33 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 20:20 saul in his prime would beat mayweather i think if they had rematched 5 years down the line

Canelo would never have beaten Money May at 154lbs or less.

And Money May would never have agreed to compete at 160lbs, because he was just too damn small.

Despite Canelo being the very best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet competing today, he usually loses three or four rounds to opponents that are vastly inferior than Money May.

And the past-his-prime version of Floyd hurt his hand when he fought Canelo and yet he still managed to cruise to victory, arguably winning almost every single round.

So whilst it’s an undeniable fact that today’s iteration of Canelo is superior than the 2013 version that got dominated by Floyd Mayweather Jr, I honestly don’t think he’s improved enough to have beaten a prime Money May at 154lbs or less.

brilo33 wrote: ↑17 Dec 2021, 21:54
you say that, but hatton had sucsess with pretty boy early on