BoxRec Forum HW Top 15 ranking - Ortiz vs. Martin / Sanchez vs. Hammer

[Enlightened-One]

so what's your top 15 then my man?

I can’t give you an immediate answer, since I’ll need to think about it.

But I really can’t see any logical reason to rate Luis Ortiz, Frank Sanchez and Kubrat Pulev so highly.

Look at who these guys have beaten within the last three years, have they beaten any legitimate top-15 world-rated opponents?

Does anybody think that Dereck Chisora, Tony Yoka and Otto Wallin wouldn’t have had an excellent chance of beating this weekend’s iteration of Luis Ortiz?

I don’t know what to say, but I really do believe in expiry dates.

If a fighter hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy in the sport of boxing within the last three years, then we really should be endorsing other heavyweights that have recently achieved more.

Time doesn’t stand still.

I really do believe that today’s version of Luis Ortiz is tailor made for a durable heavy-handed busy heavyweight like Dereck Chisora, despite Del Boy appearing past-his-prime against Joe Parker.

And I think that Tony Yoka dominates Luis Ortiz.

Luis Ortiz also ducked the Otto Wallin fight.

There's plenty of decent points in there, but this ranking is based on results and not potential, dude. It's not perfect but it's pretty fair.

Anthony Joshua only spent 30 months in the pro ranks when he dominated and destroyed Charles Martin within two rounds.

Luis Ortiz ducked Joshua, Whyte, Joyce, Wallin and Ustinov.

And this weekend, Luis Ortiz snatched victory from the jaws of defeat by stopping Charles Martin when he had been decked twice and was also well behind on the scorecards.

Excluding the Charles Martin win, Luis Ortiz has only won one fight within the last 39 months, requiring only 30 seconds of pugilistic action, with the Cuban landing only two punches.

His opponent in that fight temporarily had his purse withheld, because he quit claiming an injury to his eye, but the only punches the Cuban landed connected to the body and the bicep!

It’s been more than six years since the Bryant Jennings fight.

Therefore, let me ask you one simple question, what has Luis Ortiz achieved within the last three years to deserve to be considered as being a top-ten world-rated heavyweight?

[margaret thatcher]

bakole is unranked

[Cyclops]

I can’t give you an immediate answer, since I’ll need to think about it.

But I really can’t see any logical reason to rate Luis Ortiz, Frank Sanchez and Kubrat Pulev so highly.

Look at who these guys have beaten within the last three years, have they beaten any legitimate top-15 world-rated opponents?

Does anybody think that Dereck Chisora, Tony Yoka and Otto Wallin wouldn’t have had an excellent chance of beating this weekend’s iteration of Luis Ortiz?

I don’t know what to say, but I really do believe in expiry dates.

If a fighter hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy in the sport of boxing within the last three years, then we really should be endorsing other heavyweights that have recently achieved more.

Time doesn’t stand still.

I really do believe that today’s version of Luis Ortiz is tailor made for a durable heavy-handed busy heavyweight like Dereck Chisora, despite Del Boy appearing past-his-prime against Joe Parker.

And I think that Tony Yoka dominates Luis Ortiz.

Luis Ortiz also ducked the Otto Wallin fight.

There's plenty of decent points in there, but this ranking is based on results and not potential, dude. It's not perfect but it's pretty fair.

Anthony Joshua only spent 30 months in the pro ranks when he dominated and destroyed Charles Martin within two rounds.

Luis Ortiz ducked Joshua, Whyte, Joyce, Wallin and Ustinov.

And this weekend, Luis Ortiz snatched victory from the jaws of defeat by stopping Charles Martin when he had been decked twice and was also well behind on the scorecards.

Excluding the Charles Martin win, Luis Ortiz has only won one fight within the last 39 months, requiring only 30 seconds of pugilistic action, with the Cuban landing only two punches.

His opponent in that fight temporarily had his purse withheld, because he quit claiming an injury to his eye, but the only punches the Cuban landed connected to the body and the bicep!

It’s been more than six years since the Bryant Jennings fight.

Therefore, let me ask you one simple question, what has Luis Ortiz achieved within the last three years to deserve to be considered as being a top-ten world-rated heavyweight?

Somebody else to do something impressive to replace him.

[Finkel]

I normally refrain from commenting on this thread, but I can’t help thinking that some of the alleged top-15 heavyweights being rated by this forum is based on media reputation and fan hype, rather than their actual resumes and proverbial eyeball tests.

Anyway, I won’t submit another comment to this thread, since my thoughts oppose the echo chamber that people prefer to exist in.

so what's your top 15 then my man?

I can’t give you an immediate answer, since I’ll need to think about it.

But I really can’t see any logical reason to rate Luis Ortiz, Frank Sanchez and Kubrat Pulev so highly.

Look at who these guys have beaten within the last three years, have they beaten any legitimate top-15 world-rated opponents?

Does anybody think that Dereck Chisora, Tony Yoka and Otto Wallin wouldn’t have had an excellent chance of beating this weekend’s iteration of Luis Ortiz?

I don’t know what to say, but I really do believe in expiry dates.

If a fighter hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy in the sport of boxing within the last three years, then we really should be endorsing other heavyweights that have recently achieved more.

Time doesn’t stand still.

I really do believe that today’s version of Luis Ortiz is tailor made for a durable heavy-handed busy heavyweight like Dereck Chisora, despite Del Boy appearing past-his-prime against Joe Parker.

And I think that Tony Yoka dominates Luis Ortiz.

Luis Ortiz also ducked the Otto Wallin fight.

But apparently people still rate Luis Ortiz very highly.

Martin Bakole rated 11th? Give me a break!

Whilst I agree with a lot of this. Just a minor point in defence of the list, Bakole is fighting Yoka who is ranked #11, but Bakole is not in the top-15; dag always listed the next opponent of the fighters in the top 15, and Ruthless has kindly continued this.

You should just join in on where you would like to rank Ortiz and Sanchez. That is the point of the system, we all have our say but the majority takes it. If you give your opinion, sometimes people will agree with you and change their ranking.

[Lennox]

If your doing a rating subjectively on what you saw then;

Ortiz to 12. He is not the fighter he was twice getting dropped with very mediocure punches. He will lose to the next top 20 opponent. I think Pulev would beat Ortiz if they fought tomorrow, he would just be clever enough to outscore him and avoid the big punch, his own punch would be enough to tire Ortiz.

Sanchez to 11. He is a fighter on the ascent.

If you want to go by stats and rules, then Ortiz won against someone ranked low 20s. and Sanchez versus a gatekeeper from the 30s...so maybe both up 1 place.

My vote Ortiz to 12, Sanchez 11.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Ortiz 9
Sanchez 13

And I want to nominate Pulev to get out of the list.

I dont know if it means anything, but i absolutly agree with that pulev out propersition... or at least a propisition to vote on weather or not to remove pulev.

didnt rivas get kicked out when he went to bridger weight? pulev has gone to a different sport... and i dont even think he would be worthy of the list if he was still in the same sport, hasnt won a meaningfull fight in over 3 years.

Thing with Pulev, he hasn’t confirmed anything apart from appearing on Triad.

Give it some time and he’ll eventually be out I think based on inactivity.

[Ruthless-RKO]

There's plenty of decent points in there, but this ranking is based on results and not potential, dude. It's not perfect but it's pretty fair.

Anthony Joshua only spent 30 months in the pro ranks when he dominated and destroyed Charles Martin within two rounds.

Luis Ortiz ducked Joshua, Whyte, Joyce, Wallin and Ustinov.

And this weekend, Luis Ortiz snatched victory from the jaws of defeat by stopping Charles Martin when he had been decked twice and was also well behind on the scorecards.

Excluding the Charles Martin win, Luis Ortiz has only won one fight within the last 39 months, requiring only 30 seconds of pugilistic action, with the Cuban landing only two punches.

His opponent in that fight temporarily had his purse withheld, because he quit claiming an injury to his eye, but the only punches the Cuban landed connected to the body and the bicep!

It’s been more than six years since the Bryant Jennings fight.

Therefore, let me ask you one simple question, what has Luis Ortiz achieved within the last three years to deserve to be considered as being a top-ten world-rated heavyweight?

Somebody else to do something impressive to replace him.

Yeh, it’s based on results. No one is gonna get the better of someone just because ‘I believe he can beat him’ or ‘he ducked someone’.

It’s not based on media hype either.

[Ruthless-RKO]

CompuBox: Hammer Tied Record For Fewest Punches Landed in 10 Round Fight

[Belanio]

Ortiz 12
Sanchez 9

[ironbeard]

The disrespect by some of what Ortiz AND Martin did the other night is amusing. I have mentioned in another thread that Ortiz’s legs appear to be gone, but that does not change the fact that he was in with a live dog with a serious bite and he came away with the victory, literally snatching it from the jaws of defeat. If Martin had won that fight he would be deservedly in this top 15.

Meanwhile, Sanchez did 10 rounds on a heavy bag that did not even attempt to feign that he was trying to win, yet some folk are treating it like he was the one fighting Ortiz. HAMMER WAS A LATE REPLACEMENT.. He was there to give Sanchez rounds and keep the show intact.

Sanchez accomplished precious little on Saturday night. I can see him staying where he is at but nothing more. Ortiz came back against a fighter intent on victory. I may not think that he is long for the top 15, but he has done more than Pulev has and he defended the gate to the top 15 from a 250 pound canine.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Boxing fans can be annoying.

Had Ortiz wiped Martin out in a couple of rounds, we would have said Martin is crap anyway.

If Martin won, then it’s “Ortiz was shot anyway”

It was a decent back and forth scrap multiple knockdowns.

The fact that Ortiz is ageing, helped the fight be what it was.

He still overcame and Martin did as good as he could and just came short.

I feel like sometimes Boxers don’t really get any respect. Also it’s a thin ass division.

Probably the thinnist it’s ever been. Looking at the top 15 now.

Not a single fight has been scheduled.. (waiting on Yoka vs. Bakole).

[Ruthless-RKO]

Majority comments have said move him to 9th.

Let’s put it to the poll.

[margaret thatcher]

have you even voted ruthy

[Ruthless-RKO]

have you even voted ruthy

Yeh via the poll.

I’m in agreement with majority.

Ortiz above Pulev and Sanchez can remain.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Looks like we're keeping Ortiz as he is.

[Ruthless-RKO]

New poll up for Sanchez.

I reckon he stays where he is.

He had a decent turnaround which is good.

Maybe 3-4 more bout this year?

or at leas 2 good bouts,

[CMCanavessi]

Looks like we're keeping Ortiz as he is.

Wasn't option 9 winning by a wide margin?

[Ruthless-RKO]

Looks like we're keeping Ortiz as he is.

Wasn't option 9 winning by a wide margin?

Sorry yh, that's what I was supposed to right, I already amended the table to him going 9.

Just typed it wrong.

[Enlightened-One]

You should just join in on where you would like to rank Ortiz and Sanchez. That is the point of the system, we all have our say but the majority takes it. If you give your opinion, sometimes people will agree with you and change their ranking.

I don’t expect anyone to consider my ratings, but since you’ve politely asked for them, here are my thoughts:

1) Tyson Fury
2) Oleksandr Usyk
3) Anthony Joshua
4) Dillian Whyte
5) Deontay Wilder
6) Andy Ruiz Jr.
7) Joseph Parker
8) Joe Joyce
9) Otto Wallin
10) Michael Hunter
11) Tony Yoka
12) Frank Sanchez
13) Kubrat Pulev
14) Hughie Fury
15) Dereck Chisora

Important note 1: I feel the likes of Oscar Rivas, Robert Helenius, Filip Hrgovic and Jared Anderson are capable of being very competitive (and perhaps even beating) Kubrat Pulev, Dereck Chisora and Hughie Fury, but I need to see something more from them to convince me of their rating - basically, they need to earn it! So I’m not too bothered about people disagreeing with my ratings from 13th place onwards.

Important note 2: Luis Ortiz still has decent boxing fundamentals, he has a very good jab and is clearly capable of scoring one-punch KO’s, but he lacks stamina and no longer appears to be durable. So I can’t consider him a top-15 heavyweight, based on the proverbial eyeball test, coupled with his inactivity and poor resume over the last six years. He might just about make my top-twenty though.

Important note 3: I really don’t like watching Frank Sanchez compete, because his pugilistic fighting style is incompatible with my tastes, but he’s deceptively awkward and extremely effective at what he does (despite being feather-fisted). He might currently be good enough to be rated amongst the top-eight. However, he hasn’t earned that rating yet, so I’ve rated him below fighters I believe he’s capable of beating.

Important note 4: I don’t know whether Kubrat Pulev has retired from competitive boxing, but I’ve rated him anyway. I suspect he deserves to be removed from the rankings, because he’s only achieved one meaningful victory within the last 5½ years, which was the IBF eliminator (3½ years ago) against Hughie Fury. I think I’ve rated the Bulgarian too highly, based solely on his victories over Fury & Chisora, but I believe both Brits would beat Pulev today.

[Finkel]

You should just join in on where you would like to rank Ortiz and Sanchez. That is the point of the system, we all have our say but the majority takes it. If you give your opinion, sometimes people will agree with you and change their ranking.

I don’t expect anyone to consider my ratings, but since you’ve politely asked for them, here are my thoughts:

1) Tyson Fury
2) Oleksandr Usyk
3) Anthony Joshua
4) Dillian Whyte
5) Deontay Wilder
6) Andy Ruiz Jr.
7) Joseph Parker
8) Joe Joyce
9) Otto Wallin
10) Michael Hunter
11) Tony Yoka
12) Frank Sanchez
13) Kubrat Pulev
14) Hughie Fury
15) Dereck Chisora

Important note 1: I feel the likes of Oscar Rivas, Robert Helenius, Filip Hrgovic and Jared Anderson are capable of being very competitive (and perhaps even beating) Kubrat Pulev, Dereck Chisora and Hughie Fury, but I need to see something more from them to convince me of their rating - basically, they need to earn it! So I’m not too bothered about people disagreeing with my ratings from 13th place onwards.

Important note 2: Luis Ortiz still has decent boxing fundamentals, he has a very good jab and is clearly capable of scoring one-punch KO’s, but he lacks stamina and no longer appears to be durable. So I can’t consider him a top-15 heavyweight, based on the proverbial eyeball test, coupled with his inactivity and poor resume over the last six years. He might just about make my top-twenty though.

Important note 3: I really don’t like watching Frank Sanchez compete, because his pugilistic fighting style is incompatible with my tastes, but he’s deceptively awkward and extremely effective at what he does (despite being feather-fisted). He might currently be good enough to be rated amongst the top-eight. However, he hasn’t earned that rating yet, so I’ve rated him below fighters I believe he’s capable of beating.

Important note 4: I don’t know whether Kubrat Pulev has retired from competitive boxing, but I’ve rated him anyway. I suspect he deserves to be removed from the rankings, because he’s only achieved one meaningful victory within the last 5½ years, which was the IBF eliminator (3½ years ago) against Hughie Fury. I think I’ve rated the Bulgarian too highly, based solely on his victories over Fury & Chisora, but I believe both Brits would beat Pulev today.

The only one I can't get behind is Hunter top 10. He has really dropped off since the Povetkin draw. But I can understand people wanting to rank him based on the draw and the wins he had against other contenders, and to be fair those below him haven't gotten a signature win that would move them above

I'm not sure I would drop Ortiz completely yet, though he is ripe for the picking in his next fight. But I don't like the argument IF Martin had won which IronBeard is making, because Martin didn't win. Ortiz is early-40s (generous) and he looked shot against a top 30 fighter. Most of the ranked fighters and prospective contenders will be licking their lips at the thought of getting Ortiz in the ring and on their resume

[Ruthless-RKO]

You should just join in on where you would like to rank Ortiz and Sanchez. That is the point of the system, we all have our say but the majority takes it. If you give your opinion, sometimes people will agree with you and change their ranking.

I don’t expect anyone to consider my ratings, but since you’ve politely asked for them, here are my thoughts:

1) Tyson Fury
2) Oleksandr Usyk
3) Anthony Joshua
4) Dillian Whyte
5) Deontay Wilder
6) Andy Ruiz Jr.
7) Joseph Parker
8) Joe Joyce
9) Otto Wallin
10) Michael Hunter
11) Tony Yoka
12) Frank Sanchez
13) Kubrat Pulev
14) Hughie Fury
15) Dereck Chisora

Important note 1: I feel the likes of Oscar Rivas, Robert Helenius, Filip Hrgovic and Jared Anderson are capable of being very competitive (and perhaps even beating) Kubrat Pulev, Dereck Chisora and Hughie Fury, but I need to see something more from them to convince me of their rating - basically, they need to earn it! So I’m not too bothered about people disagreeing with my ratings from 13th place onwards.

Important note 2: Luis Ortiz still has decent boxing fundamentals, he has a very good jab and is clearly capable of scoring one-punch KO’s, but he lacks stamina and no longer appears to be durable. So I can’t consider him a top-15 heavyweight, based on the proverbial eyeball test, coupled with his inactivity and poor resume over the last six years. He might just about make my top-twenty though.

Important note 3: I really don’t like watching Frank Sanchez compete, because his pugilistic fighting style is incompatible with my tastes, but he’s deceptively awkward and extremely effective at what he does (despite being feather-fisted). He might currently be good enough to be rated amongst the top-eight. However, he hasn’t earned that rating yet, so I’ve rated him below fighters I believe he’s capable of beating.

Important note 4: I don’t know whether Kubrat Pulev has retired from competitive boxing, but I’ve rated him anyway. I suspect he deserves to be removed from the rankings, because he’s only achieved one meaningful victory within the last 5½ years, which was the IBF eliminator (3½ years ago) against Hughie Fury. I think I’ve rated the Bulgarian too highly, based solely on his victories over Fury & Chisora, but I believe both Brits would beat Pulev today.

The only one I can't get behind is Hunter top 10. He has really dropped off since the Povetkin draw. But I can understand people wanting to rank him based on the draw and the wins he had against other contenders, and to be fair those below him haven't gotten a signature win that would move them above

I'm not sure I would drop Ortiz completely yet, though he is ripe for the picking in his next fight. But I don't like the argument IF Martin had won which IronBeard is making, because Martin didn't win. Ortiz is early-40s (generous) and he looked shot against a top 30 fighter. Most of the ranked fighters and prospective contenders will be licking their lips at the thought of getting Ortiz in the ring and on their resume

I think if we were to be asked to consider a new top 15, then we'd have different lists, like EO has above.

But what Dag created here, was a rankings, similar to other orgs, like TBRB, Ring, ESPN, where it's on like a rolling fight-by-fight basis. depending on when HW contenders have fought.

Then based on the majority, we make the changes to the rankings until the next HW fight.
I believe as a whole, 90% of posters that use this thread are probably happy with the rankings,

[Enlightened-One]

The only one I can't get behind is Hunter top 10. He has really dropped off since the Povetkin draw. But I can understand people wanting to rank him based on the draw and the wins he had against other contenders, and to be fair those below him haven't gotten a signature win that would move them above

There’s no denying that Michael Hunter hasn’t scored any impressive victories within the last two years, but the American has achieved much more in the sport of boxing within the last 4½ years than what Luis Ortiz has done within the last six years.

I'm not sure I would drop Ortiz completely yet, though he is ripe for the picking in his next fight. But I don't like the argument IF Martin had won which IronBeard is making, because Martin didn't win. Ortiz is early-40s (generous) and he looked shot against a top 30 fighter. Most of the ranked fighters and prospective contenders will be licking their lips at the thought of getting Ortiz in the ring and on their resume

Over the last 4½ years, Michael Hunter suffered a competitive decision loss against Oleksandr Usyk, his bout against Alexander Povetkin was wrongly deemed to be a draw (Hunter won that one), and he also defeated the likes of Martin Bakole, Aleksandr Ustinov (who was ducked by Luis Ortiz) and Sergey Kuzmin.

Within the last six years, Luis Ortiz was KO’d twice by Deontay Wilder (though he was undeniably competitive in both those bouts) and he also managed snatch victory from the jaws of defeat against Charles Martin (when he was well behind on the judges’ scorecards).

And I don’t believe anyone genuinely believed that Charles Martin was a top-15 heavyweight prior to his loss against Ortiz, which means the victory over the American shouldn’t have propelled the Cuban to being regarded as a legitimate top-ten world-rated heavyweight.

If Luis Ortiz and Michael Hunter were to engage in a fight today, the American would be heavily-favoured by boxing’s die-hard fraternity to beat the Cuban.

And the fact that most people also feel that an unrated fighter, like Filip Hrgovic, would beat Luis Ortiz in their IBF final eliminator (assuming it happens, which it probably won’t), then surely this must mean something to everyone (hence the reason why he's excluded from my ratings)?

I think if we were to be asked to consider a new top 15, then we'd have different lists, like EO has above.

But what Dag created here, was a rankings, similar to other orgs, like TBRB, Ring, ESPN, where it's on like a rolling fight-by-fight basis. depending on when HW contenders have fought.

Then based on the majority, we make the changes to the rankings until the next HW fight.
I believe as a whole, 90% of posters that use this thread are probably happy with the rankings.

I get what you’re saying and that’s the reason why I’ve actively refrained from commenting on these rankings.

Even though I generally agree with general consensus opinion used to formulate these ratings, it just annoys me to see weird anomalies, such as many people doggedly buying into the media hype surrounding Luis Ortiz.

Prior to the Charles Martin bout, the allegedly “fearsome” Luis ‘King Kong’ Ortiz had only won one fight during the previous 34 months, which involved less than 30 seconds’ worth of pugilistic activity (i.e. the Flores farcical dive).

It may superficially appear that I’ve got some sort of vendetta against Luis Ortiz, but I really haven’t!

It’s his fans that I find annoying. They’ve automatically bestowed upon him an honorary rite of passage to being regarded as being one of the very best heavyweights on the planet, without even needing to see him compete against today's top dogs.

So to avoid personal bias, I constantly cite dates, timescales and opposition faced, because people keep insisting that Luis Ortiz is really good (and some even bizarrely feel he’s been “ducked”), whilst also doing their upmost to ignore his resume and real-world events.

In their mind, they deem their own feelings to be more important than facts!

Anyway, to cut a long story short… I generally agree with the BoxRec heavyweight rankings, but there are too many people with Lemming-like opinions about unproven fighters with poor resumes.

[Ruthless-RKO]

I think many can agree. The HW is a poor and very thin decision.

[gregregegg]

I think many can agree. The HW is a poor and very thin decision.

The good news is there all super active so it will sort itself out.....

Nah but really its so grim right now, Not a single top 25 heavy has a fight booked. Either this is going to be another shit year for boxing or march/april is going to be epic.

[margaret thatcher]

egg yoke has a fight scheduled, tbf despite getting some hate hes moving about things decently