BoxRec

Posted: **22 May 2024, 23:32**

Just remember kids that Usyk has had only 6 fights in heavy...

Posted: **23 May 2024, 01:04**

joshj909 wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 15:12
DrDuke wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 14:35
Finkel wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 10:53

Vitali, yes.
But, Wlad had 13 wins over top 10 heavyweight opponents at the championship level.
Usyk has 3 so far.
Usyk beat the two, who were better than all those, whom Wlad had beaten, and beat Wlad himself.
They both pose their own difficulties. Facing the two top guys means you have to be at the top of your game for two fights but don't clean out the division of other guys who could hypothetically beat you. Facing 13 guys who are just off the top means you need to be consistently at your best but maybe not quite as good as you need to be to beat the top 2. Joshua's loss to Ruiz or Lewis's losses show the difficulties of consistently defending against the near top guys who may not be the best in the division. It's not like Klitschko was facing the guys Wilder was facing.

Also, beating an old Klitchsko does not make them instantly better than him. If that's the case then Danny Williams is better than Tyson...

Klit was way closer to his good condition, than Tyson vs Williams. Klits had less tough fights in his career, because he competed in a relatively weak era, thus he lived longer in his careers and retired not totally shot.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 01:15**

JackSprocket wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 23:32 Just remember kids that Usyk has had only 6 fights in heavy...

4 of them being title fights. Beating 2 of the top 3 guys of the era, himself not included.

15 Heavyweight fights beating no names, and fringe contenders isn't as impressive as 1 fight beating the #1 man.

On paper it looks more impressive to see dozens more wins yes, but the most important thing in terms of ranking ATG's all comes down to WHO you beat.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 03:00**

JackSprocket wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 23:32 Just remember kids that Usyk has had only 6 fights in heavy...

And it emphasises his quality to have gone up against, and beaten, the undisputed top 2 guys in the division. Proving the win against one of them wasn`t a fluke by beating him as convincingly a second time too.

Usyk transcends being just an ATG at heavyweight because some era`s of the division enable the stand out guy of that time to merely be the best of a bad bunch. Usyk deserves the ATG label as Duran, Mayweather, Pacman do for his overall contribution without specifically just identifying one weight he dominated.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 03:05**

Oh yes, I do think that Usyk is number 1 pound for pound at the moment, but placing him amongst the likes of Ali, Marciano, Louis, Foreman etc with only SIX fights I find difficult.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 03:13**

his resume isnt anywhere near depth wise, though ability wise it's a more interesting argument. resumes dont win fights and clearly he's an excellent boxer

but some of the atgs you usually see in the lists - people often do reflexively. id advise people to really look into their records though. for example, so many of jack johnson's notable wins are just silly when you see the details. eg. sam mcvey was a teenager who'd only just learned to box. jefferies hadnt fought in SIX f@cking yeas. his world hw title win was over a 5'7 guy who weighed 168 on fight day (that's like a super welter today) ,etc. imagine usyk winning the hw title vs tim tsyzu.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 03:22**

Agreed

And after he dropped the title, Johnson's record is a carousel of bums to pad his record. Including six fights against bums making their debut lol

A former world champion fighting a guy making his debut should be embarassed.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 03:23**

I understand (and thanks, didn't know that about Johnson!) but imagine discussing all-time heavyweight ranking about a guy with a record of 6-0

Posted: **23 May 2024, 05:32**

I think in Usyk case, it's assessing him overall in his career rather than just at heavyweight, because as you correctly say, it's only 6 fights.

But just as you'd never have Duran in any list of the ATG middle, s-middles or lt-heavies .. you'd certainly have him in a list of ATG who won titles at that weight .. as contradictory as that may sound.

Usyks value went sky high in beating AJ and Fury .. but if AJ & Fury beat him they wouldn't get as greater kudos because them being naturally bigger it would be expected .. a good big one against a good little one for example

Posted: **23 May 2024, 08:03**

Well, we kind of know the level of the cruiserweights he defeated had they fought at heavyweight. They weren't "top 10 heavyweight wins" let's put it that way.

We saw Hunter had some promise but couldn't get past an older Povetkin.
We more recently saw Gasiev easily handled by Otto Wallin.
I guess Briedis might have been interesting, but he stayed at Cruiserweight.

That is not to knock the scope of the achievement becoming undisputed in both divisions. But Holyfield's Heavyweight ranking is based off among other things being a four-time champion at heavyweight, alongside fighting other ATGs in their prime.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 08:20**

JackSprocket wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 23:32 Just remember kids that Usyk has had only 6 fights in heavy...

Three of which are against the number 1 heavyweight and arguably number 2 heavyweight of his generation and one against a solid prospect in Dubois.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 08:21**

tigermoth87 wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 08:20
JackSprocket wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 23:32 Just remember kids that Usyk has had only 6 fights in heavy...

Three of which are against the number 1 heavyweight and arguably number 2 heavyweight of his generation and one against a solid prospect in Dubois.

Oh yes but that's not an all time achievement

Posted: **23 May 2024, 08:40**

Considering his size and his career achievements I have Usyk in top 5 ATG HWs. Btw , you have to take in consideration the anti-drug testing of nowadays compared with the other eras! Big difference! Nowadays its very, very hard to cheat.

Ali
Lennox
Holy
Frazier
Usyk

Olympic, World, European gold winner champion. Best wins at ams: Beterbiev, Pulev, Russo.

At pros in the WSB tournament, he defeated Joyce, Majidov and Nistor. At CW when this division was red-hot, stacked with talents, Usyk beat top notch fighters like Głowacki, Mchunu, Michael Hunter, Huck, Briedis, Gassiev, Bellew. Pretty much Usyk cleaned up the top guys from the CW division.

At HW, Usyk beat the two king pins from the HW division, i.e AJ and Fury. Much bigger and stronger fighters than him.

I mean, its very hard to match these boxing performances.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 09:25**

JackSprocket wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 03:05 Oh yes, I do think that Usyk is number 1 pound for pound at the moment, but placing him amongst the likes of Ali, Marciano, Louis, Foreman etc with only SIX fights I find difficult.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 09:25**

JackSprocket wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 03:05 Oh yes, I do think that Usyk is number 1 pound for pound at the moment, but placing him amongst the likes of Ali, Marciano, Louis, Foreman etc with only SIX fights I find difficult.

This six fight thing at heavyweight for Usyk cracks me up. All Usyk opponents at Crusierweight were heavier than most of Marciano's opponents. Marciano would have been a Cruiserweight in this era himself but he gets a bye because he fought in the "Heavyweight" division. Usyk has fought more title fights against bigger men than Rocky ever did. Don't forget that most of Rocky's title fights were against guys who started at middleweight and light heavy and some were no longer in their prime. You could argue that the guys Usyk fought in all his title fights were in their prime. So placing Usyk along with Marciano would not be out of place.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 10:50**

Ketchel wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:25
JackSprocket wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 03:05 Oh yes, I do think that Usyk is number 1 pound for pound at the moment, but placing him amongst the likes of Ali, Marciano, Louis, Foreman etc with only SIX fights I find difficult.
This six fight thing at heavyweight for Usyk cracks me up. All Usyk opponents at Crusierweight were heavier than most of Marciano's opponents. Marciano would have been a Cruiserweight in this era himself but he gets a bye because he fought in the "Heavyweight" division. Usyk has fought more title fights against bigger men than Rocky ever did. Don't forget that most of Rocky's title fights were against guys who started at middleweight and light heavy and some were no longer in their prime. You could argue that the guys Usyk fought in all his title fights were in their prime. So placing Usyk along with Marciano would not be out of place.

Good (and obvious) points.

Joe Louis did have a superior run to Marciano’s, including a W over Buddy Baer (the era’s hybrid AJ/Fury), but if you review his “bum a month club” it is largely the same level comp as Marciano faced.

That is not to denigrate the greatness of either ATG. It is just the facts, as someone else has pointed out about Jack Johnson.

Usyk would have been the toughest opponent that Louis or Marciano ever faced. While I cannot confidently say that the current World’s Champion Boxer would defeat them, Usyk could defeat both.

Edit: with the possible exception of Marciano for Louis. Louis was well past it when he faced Marciano, though.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:21**

1032083 wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:35 I'd have Usyk just cracking the top 10 IF he beats Fury in the rematch. My top 10 would look like:

10. Oleksandr Usyk
9. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
6. Evander Holyfield
5. George Foreman
4. Rocky Marciano
3. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Louis
1. Muhammad Ali

Beating Joshua twice, and Fury is objectively more impressive than anyone Rocky Marciano ever beat in my opinion.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:28**

ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 10:50
Ketchel wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:25
JackSprocket wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 03:05 Oh yes, I do think that Usyk is number 1 pound for pound at the moment, but placing him amongst the likes of Ali, Marciano, Louis, Foreman etc with only SIX fights I find difficult.
This six fight thing at heavyweight for Usyk cracks me up. All Usyk opponents at Crusierweight were heavier than most of Marciano's opponents. Marciano would have been a Cruiserweight in this era himself but he gets a bye because he fought in the "Heavyweight" division. Usyk has fought more title fights against bigger men than Rocky ever did. Don't forget that most of Rocky's title fights were against guys who started at middleweight and light heavy and some were no longer in their prime. You could argue that the guys Usyk fought in all his title fights were in their prime. So placing Usyk along with Marciano would not be out of place.
Good (and obvious) points.

Joe Louis did have a superior run to Marciano’s, including a W over Buddy Baer (the era’s hybrid AJ/Fury), but if you review his “bum a month club” it is largely the same level comp as Marciano faced.

That is not to denigrate the greatness of either ATG. It is just the facts, as someone else has pointed out about Jack Johnson.

Usyk would have been the toughest opponent that Louis or Marciano ever faced. While I cannot confidently say that the current World’s Champion Boxer would defeat them, Usyk could defeat both.

Edit: with the possible exception of Marciano for Louis. Louis was well past it when he faced Marciano, though.

More importantly than "Usyk would be the toughest that Louis or Marciano ever faced".

He's beaten 2 guys that are tougher than anyone they ever fought. Fury and Joshua would be favored to defeat every single opponent either one of them ever laced up their gloves against.

Beating Fury and Joshua is more impressive than beating Jersey Joe Walcott, Billy Conn, Max Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Objectively.

Whether you're a fan of those guys or not. It's impossible to imagine these behemoth Super Heavyweights with skills, not being a more difficult nights work than any of the other 5 I just mentioned.

Also, honestly. If you're doing an All Time Heavyweight ranking list. I'm pretty sure Fury and AJ would rank higher than all those guys. In some cases I know damn well they would.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:34**

yep, jack johnson for instance won his hw title vs a guy 167 on fight day

if that's counted as a hw fight, why not usyk vs guys who were prob like 210 in the ring

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:36**

1286809 wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 07:27
tigermoth87 wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 06:39 Number 1

Athletes get better with every generation in every sport. That is a fact. It's why records are always broken--and quite considerably. And it's true in boxing as well.

Usyk is the best of all time because he would beat every other boxer before him.
-"Florence Griffin Joyner" still has the Female Sprint record in the 100 meter dash. 10.49, in 1988.
-"Nolan Ryan" has the Fastest Baseball Pitch of all time. 109 Mph, in the 1970's.
-Babe Ruth hit 550 ft Home Runs, in the 1920's.
-"Ernest Ever Swanson" rounded all the bases in 13 seconds, in 1932.
-"Rocky Marciano" punched 2,000 psi, in the 1950's. At 5'10 185 lbs.
-"Mickey Mantle" hit 550 ft Home Runs, throughout the 1950's, and also sprinted from home plate to first base in 3.00 seconds, in the early 1950's, before the chronic knee afflictions.
-A velodrome cyclist sprinted 60 miles in one hour, in the 1920's.
-"Louis Sockalexis" could throw a baseball 450 ft, in the 1890's. Also, he could run the 100 yard dash in under 10 seconds.
-"Wilt Chamberlain" is still an athlete, and from the 1960's, who had physical abilities that still surpass any team sports athlete today.
-"Bob Beamon" with that long jump in the 1968 Olympics. That record stood for Many Years, and he used crude technology foot-wear, and probably mostly ate burgers and fries, and no supplements, or p.e.d's, as most athletes were back then.
-Ali, Holmes, Louis, Lewis, Bowe, and Holyfield would beat Usyk.
-Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, I'd have them 50-50 versus Usyk.

Records are broken for primarily two reasons:
1) The technology/equipment is vastly better (see if Bolt would run his same time wearing the shoes and dirt tracks of the 1920s . . tsk he wouldn't)
2) The pool of people doing the sport vastly increases, leading to a greater talent pool. Compare the number of people doing competitive swimming 50 years ago to now . . night and day.

In boxing, you actually have it vastly down in #2, as the sport has vastly decreased in athlete participation compared to 50 years ago, and #1 is minimal at best (shoes, rings, gloves have not made big leaps in the past half-century). I'd argue the increase in glvoe size has actually led to decreases in overall skill levels, as many fighters get used to just putting their hands up to their face to block shots instead of slipping, footwork, feinting etc.

As for Usyk, I think he's a great fighter who could compete in any era, but tough to rank because cruiserweight has never been a deep division (the only really class opponent he had was Breidis, and that was a close fight) and heavyweight probably has the worst level of depth in that division's history. But he's never lost a fight (even arguably) and his toughness/will to win, as is his boxing IQ, are definitely elite-level.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:37**

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 12:28
ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 10:50
Ketchel wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:25

This six fight thing at heavyweight for Usyk cracks me up. All Usyk opponents at Crusierweight were heavier than most of Marciano's opponents. Marciano would have been a Cruiserweight in this era himself but he gets a bye because he fought in the "Heavyweight" division. Usyk has fought more title fights against bigger men than Rocky ever did. Don't forget that most of Rocky's title fights were against guys who started at middleweight and light heavy and some were no longer in their prime. You could argue that the guys Usyk fought in all his title fights were in their prime. So placing Usyk along with Marciano would not be out of place.
Good (and obvious) points.

Joe Louis did have a superior run to Marciano’s, including a W over Buddy Baer (the era’s hybrid AJ/Fury), but if you review his “bum a month club” it is largely the same level comp as Marciano faced.

That is not to denigrate the greatness of either ATG. It is just the facts, as someone else has pointed out about Jack Johnson.

Usyk would have been the toughest opponent that Louis or Marciano ever faced. While I cannot confidently say that the current World’s Champion Boxer would defeat them, Usyk could defeat both.

Edit: with the possible exception of Marciano for Louis. Louis was well past it when he faced Marciano, though.
More importantly than "Usyk would be the toughest that Louis or Marciano ever faced".

He's beaten 2 guys that are tougher than anyone they ever fought. Fury and Joshua would be favored to defeat every single opponent either one of them ever laced up their gloves against.

Beating Fury and Joshua is more impressive than beating Jersey Joe Walcott, Billy Conn, Max Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Objectively.

Whether you're a fan of those guys or not. It's impossible to imagine these behemoth Super Heavyweights with skills, not being a more difficult nights work than any of the other 5 I just mentioned.

Also, honestly. If you're doing an All Time Heavyweight ranking list. I'm pretty sure Fury and AJ would rank higher than all those guys. In some cases I know damn well they would.

Joshua got beaten from pillar to post by an obese 6'1 fighter with a 74 inch reach, but would obliterate Walcott, Bear and Moore? LOL OK . . .

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:44**

dempseyfire wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 12:37
gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 12:28
ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 10:50
Good (and obvious) points.

Joe Louis did have a superior run to Marciano’s, including a W over Buddy Baer (the era’s hybrid AJ/Fury), but if you review his “bum a month club” it is largely the same level comp as Marciano faced.

That is not to denigrate the greatness of either ATG. It is just the facts, as someone else has pointed out about Jack Johnson.

Usyk would have been the toughest opponent that Louis or Marciano ever faced. While I cannot confidently say that the current World’s Champion Boxer would defeat them, Usyk could defeat both.

Edit: with the possible exception of Marciano for Louis. Louis was well past it when he faced Marciano, though.
More importantly than "Usyk would be the toughest that Louis or Marciano ever faced".

He's beaten 2 guys that are tougher than anyone they ever fought. Fury and Joshua would be favored to defeat every single opponent either one of them ever laced up their gloves against.

Beating Fury and Joshua is more impressive than beating Jersey Joe Walcott, Billy Conn, Max Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Objectively.

Whether you're a fan of those guys or not. It's impossible to imagine these behemoth Super Heavyweights with skills, not being a more difficult nights work than any of the other 5 I just mentioned.

Also, honestly. If you're doing an All Time Heavyweight ranking list. I'm pretty sure Fury and AJ would rank higher than all those guys. In some cases I know damn well they would.
Joshua got beaten from pillar to post by an obese 6'1 fighter with a 74 inch reach, but would obliterate Walcott, Bear and Moore? LOL OK . . .

Yes, he absolutely would.

Moore wouldn't even win a round against him.

Joshua has beaten Wladimir Klitschko, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin.

All 3 of those guys are tougher than anybody Max Baer or Archie Moore EVER beat. At Heavyweight certainly. Moore's got some great wins at Light Heavyweight obviously, but we're talking Heavyweight here.

But who I think would beat who in matches we'll never to get see doesn't matter, and isn't how I rank guys anyway. The reason why AJ is better than those guys at Heavyweight is because he has the wins on his record that show it.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:48**

Crease wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 20:32 Top 15 for me. If he beats Fury again, he could be knocking on the door of the top 10.

This.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:57**

dempseyfire wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 12:37
gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 12:28
ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 10:50
Good (and obvious) points.

Joe Louis did have a superior run to Marciano’s, including a W over Buddy Baer (the era’s hybrid AJ/Fury), but if you review his “bum a month club” it is largely the same level comp as Marciano faced.

That is not to denigrate the greatness of either ATG. It is just the facts, as someone else has pointed out about Jack Johnson.

Usyk would have been the toughest opponent that Louis or Marciano ever faced. While I cannot confidently say that the current World’s Champion Boxer would defeat them, Usyk could defeat both.

Edit: with the possible exception of Marciano for Louis. Louis was well past it when he faced Marciano, though.
More importantly than "Usyk would be the toughest that Louis or Marciano ever faced".

He's beaten 2 guys that are tougher than anyone they ever fought. Fury and Joshua would be favored to defeat every single opponent either one of them ever laced up their gloves against.

Beating Fury and Joshua is more impressive than beating Jersey Joe Walcott, Billy Conn, Max Baer, Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles. Objectively.

Whether you're a fan of those guys or not. It's impossible to imagine these behemoth Super Heavyweights with skills, not being a more difficult nights work than any of the other 5 I just mentioned.

Also, honestly. If you're doing an All Time Heavyweight ranking list. I'm pretty sure Fury and AJ would rank higher than all those guys. In some cases I know damn well they would.
Joshua got beaten from pillar to post by an obese 6'1 fighter with a 74 inch reach, but would obliterate Walcott, Bear and Moore? LOL OK . . .

In a hypothetical dream bout scenario, I'd be Scared for Joshua, versus "Joe Louis".
I'd expect it to look very similar to Joe Louis-Primo Carnera, and/or Joe Louis-Max Baer.
Joe Louis, sometimes listed at 6'1, sometimes at 6'1-1/2, and once in awhile at 6'2, had his best performances in the
199-204 weight-range. In the bout versus Marciano, Louis weighed in at 218. He was seemingly becoming more of a wrestler type than a boxer type, by that point in time.
Prime "Joe Louis" could literally knock anyone out, Cold, and in devastating fashion, regardless of they're size.

Posted: **23 May 2024, 12:59**

Yeah, but I wasn't talking about Anthony Joshua vs Joe Louis. I was talking about how does he stack up against the guys Joe Louis beat.

And the answer is. He's a more accomplished Heavyweight than all of 'em.

Objectively.

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