BoxRec

LeRoiDuRing wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:54

klitoris wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:35 Where does Usyk rank in all time heavyweight rankings?

It's all business and randomness. Usyk has a relatively weak chin. He was one good referee decision away to lose the title to Dubois in a great upset + struggles heavily against big punchers that's why we'll never see him fight a guy like wilder.

I'm not trying to be anti Usyk but boxing isn't a sport it's a business exactly like wrestling except more fights are shoot so judging fighters of the resume is stupid and all time rankings conversation are even stupider.

Has Usyk ever been down? How do you have a relatively weak chin if you're fighting some of the biggest guys in Heavyweight history, and taking their shots.

Contendeh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 20:26 He’s a top 10 all time heavyweight for me.

For me, he’s really close to Holyfield.
Wouldn’t mind an in depth discussion about who should be ranked higher.

He's over Holyfield now. Holyfield is 1-2 against Bowe. 0-1-1 against Lewis.

Usyk is 2-0 against Fury. 2-0 against Joshua.

Usyk wins. Case closed.

Holyfield is 2-0 v Tyson. I’d say a prime Lewis beats a prime fury and joshua. Holyfield had so many wars. . Prime Holyfield by the slimmest of margins. both use exceptional skills to combat much bigger men and can see how people would put usyk ahead of him. Usyk is an all time Great - no questioning that.

Contendeh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 20:50

dempseyfire wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 20:36

Contendeh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 20:26 He’s a top 10 all time heavyweight for me.

For me, he’s really close to Holyfield.
Wouldn’t mind an in depth discussion about who should be ranked higher.

The argument for ranking Usyk over Holyfield was that he didn't lose in his prime like Evander did, although Evander's opponent resume is far stronger than Usyk's. I do think 1992 Bowe is a tougher matchup for Usyk than Fury.

Prime Evander vs Usyk is really an amazing matchup. Two excellent counter-punchers in great condition with wills of iron. Evander would have the edge in speed/power but Usyk the edge in defense/technical skills.

I agree.
That and the obvious they both cleaned up CW before going on to success at Heavy.
Bowe and Fury are both themselves very comparable.

I think beating AJ twice is better than beating the 40 something versions of Foreman and Holmes and a super unmotivated Buster Douglas.

Strongly disagree on the last point . . .AJ is an overly hyped poor man's Frank Bruno. Both of those early 40s versions of Foreman and Holmes would've beaten Joshua; way too crafty and durable.

Can’t compare amoungst eras well. But he is the king of this era.

His skills/brain are arguably the best ever at heavyweight.

If you don’t think the DDD punch was low (I dont) his record is as perfect as you could ever ask for. I personally think he won all his fights pretty clear, can’t think of him ever been in trouble on the cards, hurt or gassed.

I guess it depends what you think of the era a bit, but its important to remember size when it comes to the eye test compare my eras cause its much easier to look good at 210lb than 270lb…

amwsnw wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 22:58 Holyfield is 2-0 v Tyson. I’d say a prime Lewis beats a prime fury and joshua. Holyfield had so many wars. . Prime Holyfield by the slimmest of margins. both use exceptional skills to combat much bigger men and can see how people would put usyk ahead of him. Usyk is an all time Great - no questioning that.

Holyfield has a terrific Heavyweight record, and I'm not trying to put him down. I just think Usyk's accomplishments surpass his at this point. Holyfield had more Heavyweight fights, but his peak accomplishments are no higher of a peak than Usyk's.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 22:37

Contendeh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 20:26 He’s a top 10 all time heavyweight for me.

For me, he’s really close to Holyfield.
Wouldn’t mind an in depth discussion about who should be ranked higher.

He's over Holyfield now. Holyfield is 1-2 against Bowe. 0-1-1 against Lewis.

Usyk is 2-0 against Fury. 2-0 against Joshua.

Usyk wins. Case closed.

Usyk also has Chisora and Dubois.

Holyfield had Tyson 2X, Moorer, Mercer, Foreman, Holmes, Douglas, Rahman

Ali
Lennox
Holy
Usyk
Foreman
Bowe
Fury
Wlad K

Of course , with a modern random blood peds testing this ranking probably would change

Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

dempseyfire wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 20:16

LeRoiDuRing wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:54

klitoris wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:35 Where does Usyk rank in all time heavyweight rankings?

It's all business and randomness. Usyk has a relatively weak chin. He was one good referee decision away to lose the title to Dubois in a great upset + struggles heavily against big punchers that's why we'll never see him fight a guy like wilder.

I'm not trying to be anti Usyk but boxing isn't a sport it's a business exactly like wrestling except more fights are shoot so judging fighters of the resume is stupid and all time rankings conversation are even stupider.

He arguably didn't lose a round vs Dubois, who is a big puncher and a better figher than Wilder, who has close to zero skills.

I don't care about the scorecard if the KO is scored and this is what legitimately happenned in the Dubois fight.

Concerning Wilder, of course he has next to no skill, we all know that and it doesn't change my point.

He is now THE best ever.

Everybody knows athletes get better with every generation. But for some reason people wear rose tinted glasses about it when it comes to boxing.

In any generation he would be number 1. That's a fact.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 22:36

LeRoiDuRing wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:54

klitoris wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:35 Where does Usyk rank in all time heavyweight rankings?

It's all business and randomness. Usyk has a relatively weak chin. He was one good referee decision away to lose the title to Dubois in a great upset + struggles heavily against big punchers that's why we'll never see him fight a guy like wilder.

I'm not trying to be anti Usyk but boxing isn't a sport it's a business exactly like wrestling except more fights are shoot so judging fighters of the resume is stupid and all time rankings conversation are even stupider.

Has Usyk ever been down? How do you have a relatively weak chin if you're fighting some of the biggest guys in Heavyweight history, and taking their shots.

That's why I said "relatively" the man is tough for sure but imo it's more about him having a good heart than a good chin I've seen him being stunned and taking steps back more often than others. I feel like he's more scared of big punchers. Joshua was stupid trying to play a chess game with him when he has that kind of fire power.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 22:36

LeRoiDuRing wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:54

klitoris wrote: ↑21 Dec 2024, 19:35 Where does Usyk rank in all time heavyweight rankings?

It's all business and randomness. Usyk has a relatively weak chin. He was one good referee decision away to lose the title to Dubois in a great upset + struggles heavily against big punchers that's why we'll never see him fight a guy like wilder.

I'm not trying to be anti Usyk but boxing isn't a sport it's a business exactly like wrestling except more fights are shoot so judging fighters of the resume is stupid and all time rankings conversation are even stupider.

Has Usyk ever been down? How do you have a relatively weak chin if you're fighting some of the biggest guys in Heavyweight history, and taking their shots.

Yeah.

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04 Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

So if he has 10 fights against David Allen, a returning Audley Harrison, Mark De Mori, Christian Hammer etc, that'd be enough to push him up there despite them being absolute tosh.

Quality over quantity. Doesnt matter how many fights he's had at HW when his wins are over Fury (the current best) twice, AJ (the second best twice) and Dubois (a current World Champ)

Arguably, given the changes of weight and the like, many of his Cruiserweight title defences would be classed as HW bouts back in the day.

Noted if you get stunned or take a step back copping punches the likes of AJ you are a glass jaw pussy.

tigermoth87 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:40

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04 Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

So if he has 10 fights against David Allen, a returning Audley Harrison, Mark De Mori, Christian Hammer etc, that'd be enough to push him up there despite them being absolute tosh.

Quality over quantity. Doesnt matter how many fights he's had at HW when his wins are over Fury (the current best) twice, AJ (the second best twice) and Dubois (a current World Champ)

Arguably, given the changes of weight and the like, many of his Cruiserweight title defences would be classed as HW bouts back in the day.

Why stop there, he can box a different homeless person every afternoon for the next 3 years and retire 1000-0…. Then he is clearly the GOAT…

gregregegg wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:42

Why stop there, he can box a different homeless person every afternoon for the next 3 years and retire 1000-0…. Then he is clearly the GOAT…

The Prince Patel method

tigermoth87 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:34 He is now THE best ever.

Everybody knows athletes get better with every generation. But for some reason people wear rose tinted glasses about it when it comes to boxing.

In any generation he would be number 1. That's a fact.

Well the thing is Usyk is fighting once or two times a year with perfect training condition and technology. So is it really the athletes that are getting better or the time that is more confortable ? I would love to have seen Ali, Robinson, Louis and other ATG in those terms but it does make the debate a little stupid

LeRoiDuRing wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:53

tigermoth87 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:34 He is now THE best ever.

Everybody knows athletes get better with every generation. But for some reason people wear rose tinted glasses about it when it comes to boxing.

In any generation he would be number 1. That's a fact.

Well the thing is Usyk is fighting once or two times a year with perfect training condition and technology. So is it really the athletes that are getting better or the time that is more confortable ? I would love to have seen Ali, Robinson, Louis and other ATG in those terms but it does make the debate a little stupid

One thing I thought last night that I've never thought before for a heavyweight fight was Usyk in 15 rounds would be a different level to today's heavyweights as he would win the last 3 rounds every time. It would be interesting to see how he would have done against those that fought 15 back in the day.

joshj909 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 06:04

LeRoiDuRing wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:53

tigermoth87 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:34 He is now THE best ever.

Everybody knows athletes get better with every generation. But for some reason people wear rose tinted glasses about it when it comes to boxing.

In any generation he would be number 1. That's a fact.

Well the thing is Usyk is fighting once or two times a year with perfect training condition and technology. So is it really the athletes that are getting better or the time that is more confortable ? I would love to have seen Ali, Robinson, Louis and other ATG in those terms but it does make the debate a little stupid

One thing I thought last night that I've never thought before for a heavyweight fight was Usyk in 15 rounds would be a different level to today's heavyweights as he would win the last 3 rounds every time. It would be interesting to see how he would have done against those that fought 15 back in the day.

I'm not sure about that because having 15 rounders would completely change his game plan and preparation. But in this particular fight, Usyk would've probably won the 13,14 and 15 rounds, maybe even scoring a KO

I'm not a believer of ranking fighters across generations, particularly when you are comparing heavyweights who don't resemble heavyweights of 100 years ago in any way, shape or form.

Usyk is the best of his generation and will rightly be remembered as such, in the same way as others are from their time. That's good enough in itself, historically he's now a key link in the heavyweight chain

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04 Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

It’s Not about how many fights. It’s about WHO he fought. He cleaned out the division really.

Not only did he beat the top dogs once, but he beat them twice.

It’s like when people knock Loma, Cus he never had enough fights.

He didn’t need to fight knock over jobs and build a resume. They were good enough to take the leap and go for the bigger fights.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 07:24

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04 Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

It’s Not about how many fights. It’s about WHO he fought. He cleaned out the division really.

Not only did he beat the top dogs once, but he beat them twice.

It’s like when people knock Loma, Cus he never had enough fights.

He didn’t need to fight knock over jobs and build a resume. They were good enough to take the leap and go for the bigger fights.

Get the rankings thread up before the football starts!

joshj909 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 07:25

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 07:24

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04 Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

It’s Not about how many fights. It’s about WHO he fought. He cleaned out the division really.

Not only did he beat the top dogs once, but he beat them twice.

It’s like when people knock Loma, Cus he never had enough fights.

He didn’t need to fight knock over jobs and build a resume. They were good enough to take the leap and go for the bigger fights.

Get the rankings thread up before the football starts!

Oh Yh..

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 07:24

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑22 Dec 2024, 05:04 Only modern boxing fans could say job done atg for someone who has had only 7 fights at heavyweight. 2 rematches.

I'd return to the question when he's had another 10 fights at least

It’s Not about how many fights. It’s about WHO he fought. He cleaned out the division really.

Not only did he beat the top dogs once, but he beat them twice.

It’s like when people knock Loma, Cus he never had enough fights.

He didn’t need to fight knock over jobs and build a resume. They were good enough to take the leap and go for the bigger fights.

Yes.

A good description of how boxing works.

Even Ali didn't get to beat all of his main rivals twice.

I suppose some will want to see Usyk knock out Dubois for the second time, providing he gets past Parker, to be fully convinced.

And then there are others that refuse to be convinced by any version of external reality.