BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 14:15

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 14:06

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 13:20

Wow, you're really good at reading boxers records. Well done.

I don't really rate the heavyweights of Louis era and I think they would lose to the light heavyweights super middleweights of subsequent eras

Louis heavyweight opponents probably wouldn't enjoy the success they did in subsequent heavyweight eras and most would be fighting in other divisions.

Well, when you build that time machine, be sure to give me a call.

We don't need a time machine to know many of Louis opponents no longer qualify as heavyweights. That's just simple facts.

In Louis day a 192 pound Schmelling was a heavyweight but he isn't today

In fact there was a recent fight where a super middleweights reportedly rehydrated to 193

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 14:19

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 14:15

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 14:06

I don't really rate the heavyweights of Louis era and I think they would lose to the light heavyweights super middleweights of subsequent eras

Louis heavyweight opponents probably wouldn't enjoy the success they did in subsequent heavyweight eras and most would be fighting in other divisions.

Well, when you build that time machine, be sure to give me a call.

We don't need a time machine to know many of Louis opponents no longer qualify as heavyweights. That's just simple facts.

In Louis day a 192 pound Schmelling was a heavyweight but he isn't today

In fact there was a recent fight where a super middleweights reportedly rehydrated to 193

Nonsense. You are making gigantic assumptions.

And yet again, someone is ignoring all the guys that Louis stopped that were way over 200 pounds. Always amazes me that so many people have these preconceived notions of what it was like before they were born and have no interest in finding out more.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 15:00 And yet again, someone is ignoring all the guys that Louis stopped that were way over 200 pounds. Always amazes me that so many people have these preconceived notions of what it was like before they were born and have no interest in finding out more.

Then there's the sheer madness that anyone weighing 200lbs in the 1940's would automatically be a light heavyweight now.

And height..... Heavyweights today are too gigantic for the heavyweights of the past to compete with. Despite the fact that Usyk is 6' 3" and two of the best heavyweight prospects, Richard Torrez is 6' 2" and Moses Itouma is 6' 2 1/2".

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Apr 2025, 15:00 And yet again, someone is ignoring all the guys that Louis stopped that were way over 200 pounds. Always amazes me that so many people have these preconceived notions of what it was like before they were born and have no interest in finding out more.

Joe Louis fought 5 guys over 210
Young Stanley Ketchel
Primo Carnera
Buddy Baer
Abe Simon
Tony Galento

That's a pretty short list and Galento was out of shape and probably shouldn't be counted since in shape he would probably be 190 or so

So now 210 is the magical weight? I'm sorry you said "over 210" so that way you don't have to count the Max Baer fight or another fight Louis won where his opponent was 210.

You also didn't mention that he fought Buddy Baer and Simon twice.
Anyway, you are holding us all in suspense. How well did Louis do in those fights?

My point is he fought an extremely small number of guys well over 200. Far less than say Holyfield who faced over 20 so he's relatively untested against men that size.

Another difference is these guys routinely lost to guys Louis size while that's not true of Joshua. Ruiz is his only loss to someone who might be Louis size if we take away excess fat. Joshua also lost to better opponents. Ruiz is his only bad loss while Buddy Baer lost to Andre Lenglet, Gunnar Barlund, and Ford Smith and Simon lost to Jim Thompson and Eddie Blunt. Obviously we can give them a pass for losing to Louis

Does anyone think Toney or Jones wouldn't beat Carnera, Simon and Baer?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 06:52 Another difference is these guys routinely lost to guys Louis size while that's not true of Joshua.

Height or weight?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 08:17

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 06:52 Another difference is these guys routinely lost to guys Louis size while that's not true of Joshua.

Height or weight?

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 13:09

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 08:17

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 06:52 Another difference is these guys routinely lost to guys Louis size while that's not true of Joshua.

Height or weight?

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

And the other guy was fat guy half an inch taller than Joe. My Mrs will confirm that an extra half an inch makes zero difference.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 06:52 My point is he fought an extremely small number of guys well over 200. Far less than say Holyfield who faced over 20 so he's relatively untested against men that size.

Another difference is these guys routinely lost to guys Louis size while that's not true of Joshua. Ruiz is his only loss to someone who might be Louis size if we take away excess fat. Joshua also lost to better opponents. Ruiz is his only bad loss while Buddy Baer lost to Andre Lenglet, Gunnar Barlund, and Ford Smith and Simon lost to Jim Thompson and Eddie Blunt. Obviously, we can give them a pass for losing to Louis

Does anyone think Toney or Jones wouldn't beat Carnera, Simon and Baer?

You go on and on about size except when it hit goes against modern fighters.
Which is all this is. You have no interest in fighters before your time so you use weight as excuse.
When a big guy loses form way back it's because he is not very good. When a big loses now it gets glossed over.

Baer, Simon, and Carnera were not legends, but they had some ability.
You cherry pick Baers losses, bringing up losses by 6 round and even a four-round decision. Some when he was very young. He had 67 fights in his career. Only was stopped twice. Both times by.... Joe Louis.

Don't know how Jones or Toney would have done against Carnera, Simon, and Baer. Guessing that the results would be mixed.
You dismiss Carnera, Baer and Simons chances out of hand. Suddenly weight doesn't mean anything to you. Why? Because they fought before your time.

Carnera had lots of nice wins and some bad losses in a long career. One fight worth considering. He beat Tommy Loughran. Carnera is the only fighter over 220 that I can find that beat a great fighter under 200. Then again, this would be going on what happened in real life.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 13:09

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 08:17

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 06:52 Another difference is these guys routinely lost to guys Louis size while that's not true of Joshua.

Height or weight?

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 13:09

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 08:17

Height or weight?

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Don't you think how good someone is at boxing is important?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 16:52

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 13:09

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Don't you think how good someone is at boxing is important?

Sure but I'm not even confident Louis could beat the best light heavyweights today let alone top heavyweights. How does Louis appear better than guys like Beterbiev, Bivol, Benavidez in terms of combination punching, speed, defense etc in your eyes?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 21:15

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 16:52

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Don't you think how good someone is at boxing is important?

Sure but I'm not even confident Louis could beat the best light heavyweights today let alone top heavyweights. How does Louis appear better than guys like Beterbiev, Bivol, Benavidez in terms of combination punching, speed, defense etc in your eyes?

If you're asking that question, then you haven't watched enough footage of Joe Louis. Honestly, yow many of Louis' fights have you watched in full? Zero?

It's a great question. Louis was a true great. Joshua a top level fighter but not in Joe's class.

On the other hand AJ is 45 pounds bigger with a 6 inch reach advantage.

That is a lot to oversome for the better fighter.

I don't want t go against Joe but nobody who is 200 pounds is beating these current giants. They're not even challenging them.

It's easy to imagine Joe slipping inside and landing sharp counters that have AJ in trouble. I can also see scenarios where AJ gest his right hand home first. Or he does the job from the outside as he did in the Ruiz rematch.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 21:15

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 16:52

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Don't you think how good someone is at boxing is important?

Sure but I'm not even confident Louis could beat the best light heavyweights today let alone top heavyweights. How does Louis appear better than guys like Beterbiev, Bivol, Benavidez in terms of combination punching, speed, defense etc in your eyes?

In reality this is the better question. And the fairer question. Biv and Bet have proved themselves to be at the very top of the sport for any era. They would be truly fantastic fights.

Ezzard wrote: ↑10 Apr 2025, 10:27 It's a great question. Louis was a true great. Joshua a top level fighter but not in Joe's class.

On the other hand AJ is 45 pounds bigger with a 6 inch reach advantage.

That is a lot to oversome for the better fighter.

I don't want t go against Joe but nobody who is 200 pounds is beating these current giants. They're not even challenging them.

It's easy to imagine Joe slipping inside and landing sharp counters that have AJ in trouble. I can also see scenarios where AJ gest his right hand home first. Or he does the job from the outside as he did in the Ruiz rematch.

Carnera, Simon and Buddy Baer all had the huge weight advantages over Louis.
Carnera had a longer reach than Joshua, as did Simon. Baer had the same.
Louis went 5-0. None of the fights went the distance.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 13:09

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 08:17

Height or weight?

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Both are closer to Liston's size than they are to Fury and Joshua.
Liston had several fights where he weighed more than Wilder.
Wilder weighed only 212 in the first fight against Fury where he scored 2 knockdowns and got a draw.
He put on a lot of weight for the 2nd and 3rd fights and didn't do as well.
Did you notice that? Probably not.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Apr 2025, 19:19

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Apr 2025, 13:09

Anthony Joshua has 2 losses to one of the smaller guys in the current Heavyweight division. You know...that guy that's the Heavyweight Champion now.

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Both are closer to Liston's size than they are to Fury and Joshua.
Liston had several fights where he weighed more than Wilder.
Wilder weighed only 212 in the first fight against Fury where he scored 2 knockdowns and got a draw.
He put on a lot of weight for the 2nd and 3rd fights and didn't do as well.
Did you notice that? Probably not.

They are both considerably bigger than Joe Louis who at his best was around 199. Moreover Wilder with his recent losses probably isn't even in this eras top 5. Furys reputation is largely based on beating Wilder to begin with so the first fight is hardly some great feat on Wilders part. Are you forgetting that Cunningham dropped Fury as well as Ngannou?

Moreover I'm curious why you seem so confident that Louis is better than Beterbiev and company? Certainty some of these guys are better defensively based on film and records.

You really think Bivol would lose to Schmelling? Or get dropped by Galento? That they wouldn't beat everyone Louis beat? Yet none of them were trying to fight Joshua for some reason despite him being a huge draw that would have made them lots of money

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2025, 13:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Apr 2025, 19:19

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Apr 2025, 14:25

That smaller guy is still considerably bigger than Joe Louis and weighed over 220 in both fights the size of George Foreman. Someone can be small by the standards of their own era and still bigger than the larger heavyweights of past eras

Little Wilder and Usyk are both bigger than Sonny Liston

Both are closer to Liston's size than they are to Fury and Joshua.
Liston had several fights where he weighed more than Wilder.
Wilder weighed only 212 in the first fight against Fury where he scored 2 knockdowns and got a draw.
He put on a lot of weight for the 2nd and 3rd fights and didn't do as well.
Did you notice that? Probably not.

They are both considerably bigger than Joe Louis who at his best was around 199. Moreover Wilder with his recent losses probably isn't even in this eras top 5. Furys reputation is largely based on beating Wilder to begin with so the first fight is hardly some great feat on Wilders part. Are you forgetting that Cunningham dropped Fury as well as Ngannou?

Moreover I'm curious why you seem so confident that Louis is better than Beterbiev and company? Certainty some of these guys are better defensively based on film and records.

You really think Bivol would lose to Schmelling? Or get dropped by Galento? That they wouldn't beat everyone Louis beat? Yet none of them were trying to fight Joshua for some reason despite him being a huge draw that would have made them lots of money

In the end that's the killer argument. Why aren't truly great LHWs moving up to beat HWs in today's era? With all the money they could make it should be easy for these 195 lb greats to move up and beat these mediocre giants. But they don't do it because they can't.

Ezzard wrote: ↑15 Apr 2025, 06:46

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2025, 13:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Apr 2025, 19:19

Both are closer to Liston's size than they are to Fury and Joshua.
Liston had several fights where he weighed more than Wilder.
Wilder weighed only 212 in the first fight against Fury where he scored 2 knockdowns and got a draw.
He put on a lot of weight for the 2nd and 3rd fights and didn't do as well.
Did you notice that? Probably not.

They are both considerably bigger than Joe Louis who at his best was around 199. Moreover Wilder with his recent losses probably isn't even in this eras top 5. Furys reputation is largely based on beating Wilder to begin with so the first fight is hardly some great feat on Wilders part. Are you forgetting that Cunningham dropped Fury as well as Ngannou?

Moreover I'm curious why you seem so confident that Louis is better than Beterbiev and company? Certainty some of these guys are better defensively based on film and records.

You really think Bivol would lose to Schmelling? Or get dropped by Galento? That they wouldn't beat everyone Louis beat? Yet none of them were trying to fight Joshua for some reason despite him being a huge draw that would have made them lots of money

In the end that's the killer argument. Why aren't truly great LHWs moving up to beat HWs in today's era? With all the money they could make it should be easy for these 195 lb greats to move up and beat these mediocre giants. But they don't do it because they can't.

Maybe these giants are too big and heavy.

The most Joe Louis ever weighed for a fight was 218. Everybody in the current top 35 weighed more than that in their last fight. This goes on year after year and still we have guys who insist it means nothing. And I don't think anyone here has said that a lighter man can't beat a heavier one, heck DaVarryl Williamson stopped a guy 100 lbs heavier who was coming off a TKO win over Maskaev. The sport has changed dramatically and it's fact not opinion. Plenty of successful Cruiserweights don't make the jump because the weight differences are too much.

Seamus wrote: ↑15 Apr 2025, 11:37 The most Joe Louis ever weighed for a fight was 218. Everybody in the current top 35 weighed more than that in their last fight. This goes on year after year and still we have guys who insist it means nothing. And I don't think anyone here has said that a lighter man can't beat a heavier one, heck DaVarryl Williamson stopped a guy 100 lbs heavier who was coming off a TKO win over Maskaev. The sport has changed dramatically and it's fact not opinion. Plenty of successful Cruiserweights don't make the jump because the weight differences are too much.

Yes, I agree.

We can theorize what is the ideal weight forever. I and others have said that 195 is not ideal. But if the rare fighter that size has proved he can do it, lets not pretend that he couldn't. And if there is ever a great heavyweight over 260, lets acknowledge that as well.
We are talking about Joe Louis. We know for a fact that Joe could beat guys way bigger than him. We don't have to theorize about anything. Why can't we just say that Joe Louis was special and would have beaten the crap out of someone that was nowhere near great like Anthony Joshua?