BoxRec

johnswan1 wrote:Mine is something like this:

1. Hopkins (Taylors undeserved win takes nothing away from his ranking)
2. Winky (Don't think I'll get much resistance here)
3. PBF (As good as he looks, Gatti, Bruseles, Corley, N'dou & Sousa in past three years does not make you P4P number 1)

Are Hopkin's opponents over the last three years much better?
Daniels, Eastman, Allen (for the 3rd time ), Joppy, Hakkar and an old fat ODH. Not exactly setting the world on fire is he..

MightyWarrior wrote:

johnswan1 wrote:Mine is something like this:

1. Hopkins (Taylors undeserved win takes nothing away from his ranking)
2. Winky (Don't think I'll get much resistance here)
3. PBF (As good as he looks, Gatti, Bruseles, Corley, N'dou & Sousa in past three years does not make you P4P number 1)

Are Hopkin's opponents over the last three years much better?
Daniels, Eastman, Allen (for the 3rd time ), Joppy, Hakkar and an old fat ODH. Not exactly setting the world on fire is he..

I was going to make the same point.

Intweresitng however that many (not you MW) but others, that an old fat De la hoya woudl be PBF';s career defining fight.

ONE RULE FOR ONE.......................

To be fair J, Oscar had no business at middleweight.

MightyWarrior wrote:

johnswan1 wrote:Mine is something like this:

1. Hopkins (Taylors undeserved win takes nothing away from his ranking)
2. Winky (Don't think I'll get much resistance here)
3. PBF (As good as he looks, Gatti, Bruseles, Corley, N'dou & Sousa in past three years does not make you P4P number 1)

Are Hopkin's opponents over the last three years much better?
Daniels, Eastman, Allen (for the 3rd time ), Joppy, Hakkar and an old fat ODH. Not exactly setting the world on fire is he..

He fought the best in his division during a poor era. He took on all challengers - only thing is that he never stepped up in weight. He also became the first man to beat Glen Johnson (stopped him and made him cry), to beat Trinidad (stopped him too) and was the first to stop De La Hoya (a good achievement regardless of whether DLH was a Middleweight or not). With regards to these other guys you mentioned, they were mostly top contenders at the time and not only did Hops beat them but he almost never even lost a round against them. Plus he done it for ten years and had the most Middleweight defenses in history.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:To be fair J, Oscar had no business at middleweight.

and to be fair by the time he fights mayweather he will be 3 years older and out of the ring for same time. that would even it up for me surely?

wouldnt have hatton in top 10 and would remove joe calzone completely . karmazin moves up

Common sense frankly shows that Mayweather is the best boxer today. The name's recently are not terrific, but he's been moving up the weights and has hardly lost a round since Castillo 1. Its plain to see, p4p Winky is not a better boxer than Mayweather.

J wrote:Intweresitng however that many (not you MW) but others, that an old fat De la hoya woudl be PBF';s career defining fight.

ONE RULE FOR ONE.......................

J what would be the bigger acheivement Winky beating Hatton or Barrera moving up and beating Hatton? EXACTLY

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

J wrote:Intweresitng however that many (not you MW) but others, that an old fat De la hoya woudl be PBF';s career defining fight.

ONE RULE FOR ONE.......................

J what would be the bigger acheivement Winky beating Hatton or Barrera moving up and beating Hatton? EXACTLY

THAT DEPENDS ON HOW OLD THEY ARE WHEN THEY DO IT! You arent comparing like for like. Winky and MAB are still on top of their game active and still beating opponents that are world class.

Im not saying it wouldnt be an achievement Im just sayiog that beating de la hoya after 3 years ring abscence and being over the hill by some 4-5 years is not stellar . Its liek saying Marciano was better than Louis based on that one fight.

surely you can see that. Anyone lording Mayweather for beating a 35 year old inactive de la hoya is just blind through admiration for PBF Im afraid imo.

JESUS CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT HATTON WOULD DO TO OSCAR NOW WITH THAT WORKRATE?

And can you imagine Oscar in his prime getting spanked by Ricky?


NO? exactly.

johnswan1 wrote:Sorry, but I have limited respect for anybody who drops Hopkins from undisputed P4P king down to 10th for being robbed of a (close-ish) decision win against Taylor.

Barrera done well against Morales but took an awful hiding from Pacman. That has never happened to Hops, not Winky, nor Mayweather. Marquez looks great but hasn't proved enough.

Well the reason I had Hopkins down at ten is because I never thought he was the P4P No.1 before he got beat by Taylor.

His level of opposition has just not been good enough over the years, and his career defining fights were against welter/lightweights. If you take away Trinidad and De La Hoya from his resume, you're left with years of guys like, Robert Allen, Hakker and Carl Daniels. - This is all in the same time that guys like Barrera and Morales are continuely fighting top class fighters over and over.

J wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

J wrote:Intweresitng however that many (not you MW) but others, that an old fat De la hoya woudl be PBF';s career defining fight.

ONE RULE FOR ONE.......................

J what would be the bigger acheivement Winky beating Hatton or Barrera moving up and beating Hatton? EXACTLY

THAT DEPENDS ON HOW OLD THEY ARE WHEN THEY DO IT! You arent comparing like for like. Winky and MAB are still on top of their game active and still beating opponents that are world class.

Im not saying it wouldnt be an achievement Im just sayiog that beating de la hoya after 3 years ring abscence and being over the hill by some 4-5 years is not stellar . Its liek saying Marciano was better than Louis based on that one fight.

surely you can see that. Anyone lording Mayweather for beating a 35 year old inactive de la hoya is just blind through admiration for PBF Im afraid imo.

JESUS CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT HATTON WOULD DO TO OSCAR NOW WITH THAT WORKRATE?

And can you imagine Oscar in his prime getting spanked by Ricky?


NO? exactly.

Delahoya will UD Mayorga which will put him back on the map - beating him then is an achievement for a smaller man. Hopkins didn't really do a better job on DLH than Sturm. Is Sturm in your top20 P4P - I hope not.

You'd pick Ricky to beat Oscar now? Not sure I would, not sure I pick Mayweather to beat Oscar now and its a 50-50 fight due to Oscar having about 20lbs of natural mass on him.

oscar is 35 lads and hasnt boxed for 3 years has the world gone mad!

im not so sure he will beat mayorga if mayorga come sin anythign like.


and how exactly is an 8th round KO and being in control all of the fight, better than a disputed points loss.

Sorry i know it seems im just disagreeing with you on everything but I really dont understand your logic at all.

I'm in agreement here J.

I wouldn't be surprised if he never fights again, does he really have the desire? He talks about it because he likes being talked about as a fighter, after all, the guy is an egomaniac, but he has a lot of outside interests, and you know what they say about fighters and silk pyjamas....

If he comes back after a really long layoff, there's quite a few fighters out there capable of beating him. Had he remained active since losing to B-hop, and had some success, then a fight against Mayweather would have been a decent proposition.

J wrote:oscar is 35 lads and hasnt boxed for 3 years has the world gone mad!

im not so sure he will beat mayorga if mayorga come sin anythign like.


and how exactly is an 8th round KO and being in control all of the fight, better than a disputed points loss.

Sorry i know it seems im just disagreeing with you on everything but I really dont understand your logic at all.

Hopkins seemed to give away a load of rounds against DLH and did sweet FA (I think I had them about level on points but only watched it once) until the bodyshot Sturm pumped Oscars head back with the jab all night so from a points perspective did more. Its like which is better Wlad dominating Byrd or Ike losing 4rounds and ko'ing him in 1? The point is DLH wasn't top5 at MW - Sturm, Eastman, Soliman, Taylor, Joppy, Ikeke all probably beat him

At 154 and 147 hes a top dog - hence its an achievment to beat him at that weight. But he was small at 154

About him not coming back I think the Mayorga fight is as good as signed.

WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO AGREE TO DIASAGREE.

a 35 yr old inactive de lay hoya is not top dog at anything other than not a bad promoter..

J wrote:WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO AGREE TO DIASAGREE.

a 35 yr old inactive de lay hoya is not top dog at anything other than not a bad promoter..

And if he beats Mayorga and Vargas?

HARDLY P4P ARE THEY.

or even the best in each division.

ior even fighter in their priomes, both damaged goods one an ex roid freak and the other a party animal.

are they top ten even in the div?

An old out ring rusty DLH is still an easy fight for PBF or Hatton.

Martin_H wrote:

johnswan1 wrote:Sorry, but I have limited respect for anybody who drops Hopkins from undisputed P4P king down to 10th for being robbed of a (close-ish) decision win against Taylor.

Barrera done well against Morales but took an awful hiding from Pacman. That has never happened to Hops, not Winky, nor Mayweather. Marquez looks great but hasn't proved enough.

Well the reason I had Hopkins down at ten is because I never thought he was the P4P No.1 before he got beat by Taylor.

His level of opposition has just not been good enough over the years, and his career defining fights were against welter/lightweights. If you take away Trinidad and De La Hoya from his resume, you're left with years of guys like, Robert Allen, Hakker and Carl Daniels. - This is all in the same time that guys like Barrera and Morales are continuely fighting top class fighters over and over.

It's easy to pick out his weakest opponents. I see you left Vanderpool, Echols & Glen Johnson out of your list. As I said, he beat the best of his era and not only did he beat them - he rarely lost a round.

J wrote:HARDLY P4P ARE THEY.

or even the best in each division.

ior even fighter in their priomes, both damaged goods one an ex roid freak and the other a party animal.

are they top ten even in the div?

An old out ring rusty DLH is still an easy fight for PBF or Hatton.

Are Vargas and Mayorga top10 in the division - do you follow a little sport we call boxing or not mate , easily top5 at 154 aren't they? Winkys the only obvious choice above them (but hes at 160 now) and Vargas beat him. Mayorga arguably beat Spinks alongside beating Forrest. We don't know how much Vargas has left but remember he beat Winky.

And going up 2 divisions isn't easy (unless your big at the weight like Mosley). Delahoya probably stops Hatton and PBF still.

OK lets get insults for top fighters worst attributes - 'crackhead' Tarver, Roid Jones, Toney 'roid freak', Beer Belly Hatton, Vitali the steroid Viles (yes he tested positive pre-olympics) - see my point?

I was being sarcastic re top ten.

Winky lost to vargas in 19 90 what?

jeez.
Talk about digging upt eh depths the winky of then is not the winky of now.

Ouma Karmazin Quartey and Trinidad when he comes back all have arguments they are better than Mayorga / Vargas, and going by your logic so does Spinks.

J wrote:I was being sarcastic re top ten.

Winky lost to vargas in 19 90 what?

jeez.
Talk about digging upt eh depths the winky of then is not the winky of now.

Ouma Karmazin Quartey and Trinidad when he comes back all have arguments they are better than Mayorga / Vargas, and going by your logic so does Spinks.

Yes but they're all about the same level - except Trinidad whos better but will only comeback for Oscar anyway and I'm not sure if he has the heart to make 154 - he should though

yip i think if Felix is to come back he has to be down to light middle.

johnswan1 wrote:It's easy to pick out his weakest opponents. I see you left Vanderpool, Echols & Glen Johnson out of your list. As I said, he beat the best of his era and not only did he beat them - he rarely lost a round.

But I don't particulary see these as career defining fights either...

Vanderpool isn't really that great, he's NEVER held a World title before,

Echols again, has NEVER held a World title, and I thought he got stitched up a little in the second fight with the stoppage... The referee had clearly said break and was trying to intervine when Hopkins landed a wicked shot that did the damage.

And Glen Johnson is a tough tough man... But has lost 90% of his major fights/world title bids, so again I don't see him as a career defining fight for Hopkins.

Hopkins is being put on a pedistall as a P4P great, but I've never thought that his resume compares to fighters like Barrera and Morales (active fighters at the same time as him).

Martin_H wrote:

johnswan1 wrote:It's easy to pick out his weakest opponents. I see you left Vanderpool, Echols & Glen Johnson out of your list. As I said, he beat the best of his era and not only did he beat them - he rarely lost a round.

But I don't particulary see these as career defining fights either...

Vanderpool isn't really that great, he's NEVER held a World title before,

Echols again, has NEVER held a World title, and I thought he got stitched up a little in the second fight with the stoppage... The referee had clearly said break and was trying to intervine when Hopkins landed a wicked shot that did the damage.

And Glen Johnson is a tough tough man... But has lost 90% of his major fights/world title bids, so again I don't see him as a career defining fight for Hopkins.

Hopkins is being put on a pedistall as a P4P great, but I've never thought that his resume compares to fighters like Barrera and Morales (active fighters at the same time as him).

Being the first person to beat (and stop) Glen Johnson is an achievement. I never said these were career defining fights - I would say his career defining fight was against Trinidad but if he comes back and beats Taylor I would put that right up there considering his age. Hops has never been beaten up or dominated before (Barrera and Morales both have been) and I just think Hops is a crafty grand master of boxing who deserves P4P status. (Also note that most of these guys did not become title holders because Hops prevented them from doing so).