Marciano vs INGO 1960
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Thunder and Lightning
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 177
- Joined: 11 Jul 2006, 10:40
I am a huge Ingemar Johansson fan maybe because I'm from Sweden but i still have to say that Ingemar vs prime Marciano would have been a huge missmatch Marciano would walk straight trough Ingos jabb.
However in 1960 Marciano was to old and to past his prime to be able to beat that Ingo, Johanssons power and speed would just have been to much.
By the way he was not knocked unconcious in the third fight with patterson he was up at nine but the ref counted to ten thus the KO.
However in 1960 Marciano was to old and to past his prime to be able to beat that Ingo, Johanssons power and speed would just have been to much.
By the way he was not knocked unconcious in the third fight with patterson he was up at nine but the ref counted to ten thus the KO.
Prime vs prime, Marciano KO 3. In 1960 Johansson KO 5. I think Marciano really knew there was no sense in coming back after a 5 year retirement to fight Johansson or Patterson.
Johansson (like several heavyweight champions) doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, but wasn't as bad as he's made out to be. He only had 28 fights, and managed to KO Patterson, was unlucky not to KO him in there 3rd fight (when you knock your opponent down twice in the 1st, you really should finish him) and KO'd Eddie Machen in the 1st, which is pretty impressive.
Also have to disagree about the Louis, that Marciano fought. He was still a decent fighter, but his KO percentage had dropped way off in the last year or so.
Johansson (like several heavyweight champions) doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, but wasn't as bad as he's made out to be. He only had 28 fights, and managed to KO Patterson, was unlucky not to KO him in there 3rd fight (when you knock your opponent down twice in the 1st, you really should finish him) and KO'd Eddie Machen in the 1st, which is pretty impressive.
Also have to disagree about the Louis, that Marciano fought. He was still a decent fighter, but his KO percentage had dropped way off in the last year or so.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
wut about 1990s george foreman? when he fought ranked contenders his ko percentage went way down. guys like crawford grimsley, alex stewart, axel shulz lasted the distance with foreman. but could 1990s foreman still hit hard? yesAlso have to disagree about the Louis, that Marciano fought. He was still a decent fighter, but his KO percentage had dropped way off in the last year or so.
fact is 1950s louis was still a hard hitter and a 215lb heavy handed fighter. he simply lacked the reflexes and speed to finish people off anymore. he didnt have the reflexes and speed to put together those ligntning fast finishing combinations anymore. but when 1950s louis hit u, it hurt. he could still hit hard with one punch. take a look at louis opponents in the 1950s after the fights including marciano and charles, there faces are badly puffed up. this shows louis had force behind his punches. louis jab was probably the most powerful in the division at the time.
1990s foreman knocked out a bunch of stiffs until when he faced world class opposition he suddenly was unable to knock them out.
1950s louis fought virtually all of his 10 comeback fights vs young world class contenders so it was harder for him to finish them off.
louis's one punch KO over durable # 2 ranked contender lee savold shows u he still could hit
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bill.lockhart
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 249
- Joined: 01 Nov 2005, 11:40
Ingo vs. Rocky 1959
... They never comeback...
Not until Floyd anyway
As much as I respect Rocky, 4 years away is a lot. Ali did it sure, but was much younger & hadn't taken nearly the punishment. Ingo was young, strong, unbeaten & highly confident. Rocky would always have a punchers chance. but I see Ingo winning via the tko route in about 6 or 7 rounds. This guy was a hell of a lot better than he is given credit for.
Look at Frazier -Cummings.
Rocky was smart. He got out & stayed out.
Not until Floyd anyway
As much as I respect Rocky, 4 years away is a lot. Ali did it sure, but was much younger & hadn't taken nearly the punishment. Ingo was young, strong, unbeaten & highly confident. Rocky would always have a punchers chance. but I see Ingo winning via the tko route in about 6 or 7 rounds. This guy was a hell of a lot better than he is given credit for.
Look at Frazier -Cummings.
Rocky was smart. He got out & stayed out.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Re: Ingo vs. Rocky 1959
bill.lockhart wrote:... They never comeback...
Not until Floyd anyway
As much as I respect Rocky, 4 years away is a lot. Ali did it sure, but was much younger & hadn't taken nearly the punishment. Ingo was young, strong, unbeaten & highly confident. Rocky would always have a punchers chance. but I see Ingo winning via the tko route in about 6 or 7 rounds. This guy was a hell of a lot better than he is given credit for.
Look at Frazier -Cummings.
Rocky was smart. He got out & stayed out.
yea.......people forget rocky would have been 37 in 1960 and coming off a 5 year layoff. swarmers usually prime early anyways. so odds are rocky will be far gone had he returned to the ring in 1960.
rocky had problems with rustiness in charles I fight after being out of the ring for only 9 months. imagine how much rust he will have being out of the ring for 5 years. rocky would have to take a tuneup fight before going straight to johannsen
it all depends on how far gone rocky is when he comes back in 1960. if he turns up at age 37 like frazier did against jumbo cummings, expect in early KO loss.
then again ali said rocky still hit mighty hard in 1969 so im accustomed to believe marciano still had power left in 1960. ill give marciano a punchers chance at least.
odds are rocky would be too old and would lose badly
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I finally found some more information on this "comeback" that almost was, so adding on to what I already know,though I wish I could have seen some more details and even the very contract that was signed by Marciano and Johansson, here is the story, in my own words, behind the entire scenario.
in 1959 the #1 Heavyweight European contender Ingemar Johansson, affectionately known as Ingo to his countrymen, had suddenly come into the title picture with his crushing first round defeat of highly regarded Eddie Machen.
Floyd Patterson by this time had gained universal recognition as the best Heavyweight in the world by beating Archie Moore for Marciano's vacated title, and held four title defenses under his belt, though three of which were against questionable opposition: Pete Rademacher, Roy Harris and Brian London.
Johansson nonetheless was a 4-1 underdog, despite his undefeated record of 21-0 with 12 knockouts, most notable Machen and Cooper in one-sided fashion. In a surprise upset the Swede dropped Patterson seven times in the third round before the referee called the slaughter off.
Johansson from the start professed to the press "No man can stand up against my right hand ("The Hammer of Thor") when it lands on their chin!" and that he would destroy any man they could line him up against.
In 1956 Marciano had named Patterson as one of the top contenders he felt was worthy to face off for his vacated title. After the match, it must have struck Marciano hard in ways that a man he named his successor could be so easily destroyed.
Whether it was pride or maybe even fact, Marciano, though he respected Patterson and his ring abilities, was once quoted as saying: "If I said I could beat Patterson you'd think I was bragging, but if I said I couldn't I'd be lying."
Marciano had always been a man of few words and was very complimentary of his fellow fighters, so it took some of the sporting public aback that Marciano would say such a thing about another man. Maybe Marciano was sickened as to how his beloved title was made into a mockery as Cus D'Mato (Patterson's manager) had hand-picked Floyd's opponents---and now even more so as the flamboyant Johansson who was simply a wild swinging brawler had beaten Patterson.
Whatever the reason may have been, Marciano's closest friends and family voiced that Marciano had felt the Swede was "an amateur" and that he was crazy to have retired; clearly the rage was simmering in Marciano's psyche and would not let this lie down.
Johansson's reign would not last long though, the rematch was a see-saw cliff hanger as Ingo buzzed Patterson in the early rounds, and it seemed the Swede was going to topple Patterson again, before he himself was knocked down and knocked out in the 5th round with a stunning left hook from a visibly tired Patterson.
Ingo cried "Lucky punch!" and said Patterson was plain lucky and demanded a rematch from the start, and once again talked up his "Toonder and Lightnin" combinations and prowess. In Massachusetts however, Marciano had clearly heard enough trash talk and pageantry. In secrecy since the first matchup The Rock had been in training.
Though he had scaled up to 240 pounds since his lay-off, he once again began to eat right, did long road work sessions, returned to hitting his 300 pound punching bag and now had got back down to a fighting trim 185 pounds.
Before Johansson had come into the picture there was talk and rumored offers for a Patterson-Marciano match up, whether this is true or not as D'Mato was afraid to place Patterson in with dangerous opposition, the money was simply not there, as even though Patterson was recognised as the best Heavyweight in the world, with all the controversy of his opponents and D'Mato's under-handed managerial status, he was not the popular attraction that Marciano was.
But now here was a fighter, an entertaining brawler in Johansson, who had wreaked havoc on Patterson and with all his boasting, and with Marciano being the only undefeated champion who was, up until that time, the ultimate knockout artist---the money was definately there!
It was officially written down on legal contract, if and only if, Johansson could beat Patterson (making him a 2x champion) in their rubber match, would the Marciano/Johansson bout come into fruitation.
Rocky was 37 years old, and with no tune up bouts, and 5yrs inactivity, experts, though praising Marciano's one punch knockout power and toughness, as well as his conditioning, still made him a slight under-dog against Johansson, who seemed to be the most explosive puncher in the world; fearing that the long lay-off may have totally taken away the Brockton Blockbuster's reflexes.
On March 13th, 1961 the world watched the rubber match. Was Patterson lucky to have beaten the Swede in their rematch? Was the Swede taking Patterson too lightly? Everybody wondered---but to Marciano it was more than that, it was all about dignity for the title, and if Patterson failed to bring honor to the title, Marciano was damned determined to stop the Swede at all costs.
In the first Indo dropped Patterson twice, but Patterson rallied back to drop Ingo. Back and forth the action went, dropping eachother an addittional four times! Everybody was on their feet, wondering who was going to win this awesome fight. In the 6th the question was settled as Patterson stopped Johansson.
Marciano vs Johansson was scrapped.
Some stories also say that the bout didn't go through, not because of the result of the rubber match, but because Marciano's uncle pleaded with the Rock to not go through with it, that the years of stuffing his face and screwing hoards of women had weakened him.
Irregardless Patterson would defend his title successfully one more time against undefeated, but unknown club fighter, Pater McNeeley before facing Charles 'Sonny' Liston. Liston would knockout out Patterson in the first round, and in their rematch did the same. Many hailed Liston to be unbeatable, that he was in the mold of Dempsey and Marciano.
For a short while rumors and reports circulated that a Marciano-Liston bout would take place. One story stated that while visiting Liston's training camp Marciano over-heard a reporter ask Liston if he felt he could hit harder than "The Rock", to which Liston said yes. Supposedly Marciano said to Liston, that if he felt so sure of himself, that the two of them could settle the question right then and there in the gym. Liston declined.
Marciano-Liston never came to be, as Liston would be dethroned by new-comer Cassius Clay, an Olympic Gold Medalist who had made huge waves in the boxing communities with his poetry and predictions, as well as his remarkable speed in the ring. The sport as we knew it, was never to be the same again, as the "Louisville Lip" took the sport onto a whole new level of popularity.
Strangely enough it was Clay, later to be known as Muhammad Ali, that Marciano, then age 45, would get to work with in the ring; virtually 15yrs after he had last held his coveted Heavyweight championship.
In 1969 Murry Woroner, a fight promoter based in Miami, came up with the idea to have "fantasy matches" between fighters of different eras, determined by a computer---going by probability based on the fighters five best years as a boxer, with 129 different ways to determine the results.
Woroner's success in his radio series of the "All-Time Heavyweight Championship Tournament", opted for him to cash in on the closed-television circuit. He searched for whatever willing former ex-champions to do the proposed simulated bouts---but his choices were limited between Ingemar Johansson vs Jersey Joe Walcott and Rocky Marciano vs Muhammad Ali, and deciding that Ingo/Jersey wouldn't bring in the big bucks, he gave the proposition to Ali and Marciano, both undefeated champions.
Ali and Marciano sparred over 75 rounds over the period of a week in a secluded Miami gym, with a black back drop around the ring. Punches to the head were to be pulled, but body shots was not a problem. Ali had confided in his trainer Angello Dundee that Marciano, though 45, was extremely hard to hit with a jab and was astonished by Marciano's body punching abilities.
During the filming of this fight, Marciano, by account of Woroner, Pacheco and several others, had at times beaten Ali so badly to the body that Ali refused to go on unless he was paid addittional money, he was paid more money. After an incident where Ali had knocked off a wig off Marciano's head, the Rock doubled over and dropped Ali with a viscous body shot.
Supposedly after the incident and the hurt feelings and anger had subsided, at a cast and crew luncheon Marciano asked Woroner if it was still alright to hit Ali to the body, to which Muhammad raised up his shirt exposing his bruised torso with welts all over his rib cage, and said No.
When filming was done, the film as well as all the information on the two fighters ring careers was fed into an NCR 315 computer, at the time the most advanced computer in the world, to determine the winner for the "All-Time Heavyweight" title.
Marciano died in a tragic airplane crash five weeks later and never saw how the film turned out, but the result was not unlike anything he would have thought:
After trailing on points, being bloodied and battered, and being dropped once himself, Marciano caught up to Ali and knocked him out in the 13th round, like he had done to Jersey Joe Walcott all those years before.
Ali would later deny that Marciano ever hurt him, that the film was a "Hollywood Fake" and joked on several occassions that "computer must have been manufactured in Alabama" or that "A man in Mississippi must have been running the machine".
Ironic, coming from a man who once at a viewing of Patterson-Chuvalo (Ring Magazines 1965 Fight of the Year), with Marciano present, shouted out:
"Rocky Marciano could beat, knock out Patterson and Chuvalo on the same night!"
Possibly the closest remark he had ever made, implying, that another fighter than himself, could have beaten anyone in the world.
in 1959 the #1 Heavyweight European contender Ingemar Johansson, affectionately known as Ingo to his countrymen, had suddenly come into the title picture with his crushing first round defeat of highly regarded Eddie Machen.
Floyd Patterson by this time had gained universal recognition as the best Heavyweight in the world by beating Archie Moore for Marciano's vacated title, and held four title defenses under his belt, though three of which were against questionable opposition: Pete Rademacher, Roy Harris and Brian London.
Johansson nonetheless was a 4-1 underdog, despite his undefeated record of 21-0 with 12 knockouts, most notable Machen and Cooper in one-sided fashion. In a surprise upset the Swede dropped Patterson seven times in the third round before the referee called the slaughter off.
Johansson from the start professed to the press "No man can stand up against my right hand ("The Hammer of Thor") when it lands on their chin!" and that he would destroy any man they could line him up against.
In 1956 Marciano had named Patterson as one of the top contenders he felt was worthy to face off for his vacated title. After the match, it must have struck Marciano hard in ways that a man he named his successor could be so easily destroyed.
Whether it was pride or maybe even fact, Marciano, though he respected Patterson and his ring abilities, was once quoted as saying: "If I said I could beat Patterson you'd think I was bragging, but if I said I couldn't I'd be lying."
Marciano had always been a man of few words and was very complimentary of his fellow fighters, so it took some of the sporting public aback that Marciano would say such a thing about another man. Maybe Marciano was sickened as to how his beloved title was made into a mockery as Cus D'Mato (Patterson's manager) had hand-picked Floyd's opponents---and now even more so as the flamboyant Johansson who was simply a wild swinging brawler had beaten Patterson.
Whatever the reason may have been, Marciano's closest friends and family voiced that Marciano had felt the Swede was "an amateur" and that he was crazy to have retired; clearly the rage was simmering in Marciano's psyche and would not let this lie down.
Johansson's reign would not last long though, the rematch was a see-saw cliff hanger as Ingo buzzed Patterson in the early rounds, and it seemed the Swede was going to topple Patterson again, before he himself was knocked down and knocked out in the 5th round with a stunning left hook from a visibly tired Patterson.
Ingo cried "Lucky punch!" and said Patterson was plain lucky and demanded a rematch from the start, and once again talked up his "Toonder and Lightnin" combinations and prowess. In Massachusetts however, Marciano had clearly heard enough trash talk and pageantry. In secrecy since the first matchup The Rock had been in training.
Though he had scaled up to 240 pounds since his lay-off, he once again began to eat right, did long road work sessions, returned to hitting his 300 pound punching bag and now had got back down to a fighting trim 185 pounds.
Before Johansson had come into the picture there was talk and rumored offers for a Patterson-Marciano match up, whether this is true or not as D'Mato was afraid to place Patterson in with dangerous opposition, the money was simply not there, as even though Patterson was recognised as the best Heavyweight in the world, with all the controversy of his opponents and D'Mato's under-handed managerial status, he was not the popular attraction that Marciano was.
But now here was a fighter, an entertaining brawler in Johansson, who had wreaked havoc on Patterson and with all his boasting, and with Marciano being the only undefeated champion who was, up until that time, the ultimate knockout artist---the money was definately there!
It was officially written down on legal contract, if and only if, Johansson could beat Patterson (making him a 2x champion) in their rubber match, would the Marciano/Johansson bout come into fruitation.
Rocky was 37 years old, and with no tune up bouts, and 5yrs inactivity, experts, though praising Marciano's one punch knockout power and toughness, as well as his conditioning, still made him a slight under-dog against Johansson, who seemed to be the most explosive puncher in the world; fearing that the long lay-off may have totally taken away the Brockton Blockbuster's reflexes.
On March 13th, 1961 the world watched the rubber match. Was Patterson lucky to have beaten the Swede in their rematch? Was the Swede taking Patterson too lightly? Everybody wondered---but to Marciano it was more than that, it was all about dignity for the title, and if Patterson failed to bring honor to the title, Marciano was damned determined to stop the Swede at all costs.
In the first Indo dropped Patterson twice, but Patterson rallied back to drop Ingo. Back and forth the action went, dropping eachother an addittional four times! Everybody was on their feet, wondering who was going to win this awesome fight. In the 6th the question was settled as Patterson stopped Johansson.
Marciano vs Johansson was scrapped.
Some stories also say that the bout didn't go through, not because of the result of the rubber match, but because Marciano's uncle pleaded with the Rock to not go through with it, that the years of stuffing his face and screwing hoards of women had weakened him.
Irregardless Patterson would defend his title successfully one more time against undefeated, but unknown club fighter, Pater McNeeley before facing Charles 'Sonny' Liston. Liston would knockout out Patterson in the first round, and in their rematch did the same. Many hailed Liston to be unbeatable, that he was in the mold of Dempsey and Marciano.
For a short while rumors and reports circulated that a Marciano-Liston bout would take place. One story stated that while visiting Liston's training camp Marciano over-heard a reporter ask Liston if he felt he could hit harder than "The Rock", to which Liston said yes. Supposedly Marciano said to Liston, that if he felt so sure of himself, that the two of them could settle the question right then and there in the gym. Liston declined.
Marciano-Liston never came to be, as Liston would be dethroned by new-comer Cassius Clay, an Olympic Gold Medalist who had made huge waves in the boxing communities with his poetry and predictions, as well as his remarkable speed in the ring. The sport as we knew it, was never to be the same again, as the "Louisville Lip" took the sport onto a whole new level of popularity.
Strangely enough it was Clay, later to be known as Muhammad Ali, that Marciano, then age 45, would get to work with in the ring; virtually 15yrs after he had last held his coveted Heavyweight championship.
In 1969 Murry Woroner, a fight promoter based in Miami, came up with the idea to have "fantasy matches" between fighters of different eras, determined by a computer---going by probability based on the fighters five best years as a boxer, with 129 different ways to determine the results.
Woroner's success in his radio series of the "All-Time Heavyweight Championship Tournament", opted for him to cash in on the closed-television circuit. He searched for whatever willing former ex-champions to do the proposed simulated bouts---but his choices were limited between Ingemar Johansson vs Jersey Joe Walcott and Rocky Marciano vs Muhammad Ali, and deciding that Ingo/Jersey wouldn't bring in the big bucks, he gave the proposition to Ali and Marciano, both undefeated champions.
Ali and Marciano sparred over 75 rounds over the period of a week in a secluded Miami gym, with a black back drop around the ring. Punches to the head were to be pulled, but body shots was not a problem. Ali had confided in his trainer Angello Dundee that Marciano, though 45, was extremely hard to hit with a jab and was astonished by Marciano's body punching abilities.
During the filming of this fight, Marciano, by account of Woroner, Pacheco and several others, had at times beaten Ali so badly to the body that Ali refused to go on unless he was paid addittional money, he was paid more money. After an incident where Ali had knocked off a wig off Marciano's head, the Rock doubled over and dropped Ali with a viscous body shot.
Supposedly after the incident and the hurt feelings and anger had subsided, at a cast and crew luncheon Marciano asked Woroner if it was still alright to hit Ali to the body, to which Muhammad raised up his shirt exposing his bruised torso with welts all over his rib cage, and said No.
When filming was done, the film as well as all the information on the two fighters ring careers was fed into an NCR 315 computer, at the time the most advanced computer in the world, to determine the winner for the "All-Time Heavyweight" title.
Marciano died in a tragic airplane crash five weeks later and never saw how the film turned out, but the result was not unlike anything he would have thought:
After trailing on points, being bloodied and battered, and being dropped once himself, Marciano caught up to Ali and knocked him out in the 13th round, like he had done to Jersey Joe Walcott all those years before.
Ali would later deny that Marciano ever hurt him, that the film was a "Hollywood Fake" and joked on several occassions that "computer must have been manufactured in Alabama" or that "A man in Mississippi must have been running the machine".
Ironic, coming from a man who once at a viewing of Patterson-Chuvalo (Ring Magazines 1965 Fight of the Year), with Marciano present, shouted out:
"Rocky Marciano could beat, knock out Patterson and Chuvalo on the same night!"
Possibly the closest remark he had ever made, implying, that another fighter than himself, could have beaten anyone in the world.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
you know...as often as well all talk of Marciano, maybe there should be a Rocky Marciano sticky (?)
Btw...also found an article a man wrote on Ingo-Marciano, and he wrote his own sypnosis and hypothesised what would have happened, had Johansson beat Patterson making the Marciano bout come true.
His result is alot like my own idea of how Marciano would have faired against Ingemar Johansson.
Btw...also found an article a man wrote on Ingo-Marciano, and he wrote his own sypnosis and hypothesised what would have happened, had Johansson beat Patterson making the Marciano bout come true.
His result is alot like my own idea of how Marciano would have faired against Ingemar Johansson.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Bout #1: Ingemar Johansson vs. Rocky Marciano
Ingemar Johansson's first defense of his world heavyweight championship was his return bout with the man from whom he wrested the title, former titleholder Floyd
Patterson. Seven brutal knockdowns in a span of two minutes the previous June 25 had electrified the fistic world and placed the handsome Swede and his "Toonder and Lightning" right hand in charge of the heavyweight division. The return bout was held at the Polo Grounds on June 20, 1960 with Johansson widely expected to repeat his knockout victory over Floyd and defend his championship.
However, Floyd was prepared, mentally and physically, for the big Swede. He hurt Ingemar with a big left hook early in the opening stanza and dominated the round, and the beginning of the second as well. Then Johansson landed his "Toonder and Lightening" right hand high on Patterson's forehead and Floyd was in trouble. His knees buckled and he wasclose to a knockdown. Johansson had his chance. Convinced he could take our the former titleholder whenever he wanted to he permitted Floyd to backpedal for the balance of the round and clear the cobwebs. Floyd regain control of the bout and stopped the Swede at 1:51 of the fifth round to become the first man to regain the world's heavyweight championship.
What if Johansson went for the knockout instead of biding his time? The shaken Patterson seeks the refuge of a clinch. Another powerful right drapes Floyd over the ring apron. Referee Arthur Mercante give's Patterson the mandatory eight count. Swinging lefts and rights Ingo decks Patterson a second time. Again Floyd rises, clearly on queer street. Two boomng rights drop the former titleholder again and this time Mercante intervenes. Ingo is still the Heavyweight Champion of the world.
In the nearly five years since Rocky Marciano abdicated his throne as undefeated Heavyweight Champion of the World he has resisted the temptation to return to the ring. Patterson's weak chin combined with the enormous gate this bout would have generated provided the Rock was ampleincentive during Floyd's reign. Despite an occasional hint to the contrary, the Brockton Blockbuster remained true to his retirement.
Now the scenario had changed. The Heavyweight Championship resided in Goteborg, Sweden and the confident Johansson, buoyed by his two brutal knockouts of Patterson, boasted that "No man can stand up when I hit him with the right". The heavyweight division was filled withdangerous contenders to test that claim. The brutal Sonny Liston had displaced Patterson as the number one contender. Cleveland Williams, a murderous puncher, had sights on Ingo's throne. Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Henry Cooper posed deadly threats to the Smorgasbord Smasher.
Then there was Marciano. Johansson's claim to invincibility was difficult for the great champion to absorb.While the Rock felt he could have dispatched Patterson without enormous difficulty he respected Floyd and felt no overwhelming urge to return to the ring. With the championship belt residing in Sweden in the hands of the swaggering Johansson the Rock let it be known he would welcome the opportunity to bring the title home.
He would come out of retirement to fight Johansson!
The bout was scheduled for February 2, 1961 at Yankee Stadium. Ingemar was an 11-5 favorite at the outset but the odds had shrunk to 7-5 on the eve of the battle. Rocky had tortured his 38 year old body with four months of arduous training. The champion trained as was his custom, casually in public yet rigorous enough when the TV cameras were out of sight. Ingo was in top shape and his only pre fight comment was one heard often before. "When I hit him on the chin with my right, he will fall".
Yankee Stadium was filled to capacity as referee Ruby Goldstein called the two contestants to ring center. Marciano looked slightly pulply at a career high 192 pounds while the big Swede tipped the scales at 195 1/2 lbs. The opening bell saw the ex champion advancing on Johansson, practically telegraphing hispunches and missing badly. Ingo did little except flick his left jab into the challenger's face and tie him on several occasions. The pattern repeated itself in the second stanza except late in the round Marciano began shortening up on his punches and reached the Swede with a solid left hook to the liver at the bell. Johansson hadn't really landed on Rocky who was worked hard to shake the ring rust generated by five years of inactivity.
Marciano spent the first two minutes of the third hurling punches at Johansson's arms, shoulders and midsection. He was doing little visible damage and tiring himself in the process. The titleholder was contributing very little to the bout until the two minute twenty second mark. Then, emerging from a clinch, Ingo hit Rocky with the right!
As it always did, the mysterious "Toonder and Lightening" Johansson straight right seemed to have a mind of its own. It exploded flush against Marciano's chin and the great ex champion staggered badly, his left knee nearly brushing the canvas. Immediately Rocky covered up as the champion clumsily drove a left hook to the body and missed another blockbuster right hand lead. The Rock was on Queer Street and he was in trouble. Quickly he tied up Ingemar, tryingto avert further damage. Johansson followed up and landed on Rocky with regularity over the last half minute of the round. However, Marciano had not gone down!
The Rock recovered from the near knockdown and resumed his methodical assault of Johansson during rounds four and five. Many of his punches crashed against the Swede's forearms, elbows and shoulders. Yet he was tiring the champion, who continued pressing forward, flicking out his jab, looking for an opening. Twice in the fifth Ingo banged his right hand off the top of Rocky's forehead. The blows had force! However, the Rock had taken Johansson's Sunday punch, the same booming right hand that separated Patterson from his senses twice. Five years inactivity notwithstanding, this was not Floyd Patterson he was facing.
In the sixth the Rock began to hurt Johansson. A left hook to the liver drove the titleholder into the ropes where Marciano drove two hard rights to the head before Ingo could escape. Ingemar was telegraphinghis punches and beginning to take punishment. There was a mouse under his left eye and his lower lip wasoozing claret. The ex-champion was timing Johansson's jab. With twenty seconds remaining in the round Rocky slipped under the jab and drove his right hand to the Swede's jaw. The Rock was off balance as he fired the punch and that alone saved Johansson. His knees buckled as he was able to force a clinch as the round came to a close.
The Champion's handlers talked feverishly to Ingo during the rest period. The ten year age difference mattered little as the bell rang for round seven. Ingemar surprised the Rock with three stiff jabs to the head during the first half minute.
Then Marciano, from a crouch, sent a crushing right to the Swede's ribcage. Ingemar was hurt and he desperately held, forcing Goldstein to separate the fighters. Johansson threw a ponderous right that sailed over Rocky's shoulder.
Rocky hooked a left to the jaw and drove a hard right to the heart. The Swedish Titleholder tied up the Rock again. Then Johansson attempted to escape to ring center. He wearily flicked out his jab to Rocky's bobbing head.
Marciano crouched under the tired jaw and connected with hisIron Mike, a powerful short right hand flush against Ingemar's jaw. It wasn't as potent as the shot that felled Walcott nine years earlier. It didn't have to be!
Johansson crumpled to the canvas, rolled over and remained prone as Goldsteintolled the ten count at 1:58 of the seventh round. The great Rocky Marciano had succeeded where Dempsey, Schmeling, Walcott, Louis and Charles had failed. He had regained the Heavyweight Championship of the World!
Cyber Boxing Zone
This guy chose a 7th round KO win for Marciano, though having one helluva hard start in the opening rounds, managing to stay up despite Ingo's power. Pretty much my own same opinion, though really thinking it over, probably would have taken Marciano a bit longer, maybe the 8th or 9th.
Ingemar Johansson's first defense of his world heavyweight championship was his return bout with the man from whom he wrested the title, former titleholder Floyd
Patterson. Seven brutal knockdowns in a span of two minutes the previous June 25 had electrified the fistic world and placed the handsome Swede and his "Toonder and Lightning" right hand in charge of the heavyweight division. The return bout was held at the Polo Grounds on June 20, 1960 with Johansson widely expected to repeat his knockout victory over Floyd and defend his championship.
However, Floyd was prepared, mentally and physically, for the big Swede. He hurt Ingemar with a big left hook early in the opening stanza and dominated the round, and the beginning of the second as well. Then Johansson landed his "Toonder and Lightening" right hand high on Patterson's forehead and Floyd was in trouble. His knees buckled and he wasclose to a knockdown. Johansson had his chance. Convinced he could take our the former titleholder whenever he wanted to he permitted Floyd to backpedal for the balance of the round and clear the cobwebs. Floyd regain control of the bout and stopped the Swede at 1:51 of the fifth round to become the first man to regain the world's heavyweight championship.
What if Johansson went for the knockout instead of biding his time? The shaken Patterson seeks the refuge of a clinch. Another powerful right drapes Floyd over the ring apron. Referee Arthur Mercante give's Patterson the mandatory eight count. Swinging lefts and rights Ingo decks Patterson a second time. Again Floyd rises, clearly on queer street. Two boomng rights drop the former titleholder again and this time Mercante intervenes. Ingo is still the Heavyweight Champion of the world.
In the nearly five years since Rocky Marciano abdicated his throne as undefeated Heavyweight Champion of the World he has resisted the temptation to return to the ring. Patterson's weak chin combined with the enormous gate this bout would have generated provided the Rock was ampleincentive during Floyd's reign. Despite an occasional hint to the contrary, the Brockton Blockbuster remained true to his retirement.
Now the scenario had changed. The Heavyweight Championship resided in Goteborg, Sweden and the confident Johansson, buoyed by his two brutal knockouts of Patterson, boasted that "No man can stand up when I hit him with the right". The heavyweight division was filled withdangerous contenders to test that claim. The brutal Sonny Liston had displaced Patterson as the number one contender. Cleveland Williams, a murderous puncher, had sights on Ingo's throne. Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Henry Cooper posed deadly threats to the Smorgasbord Smasher.
Then there was Marciano. Johansson's claim to invincibility was difficult for the great champion to absorb.While the Rock felt he could have dispatched Patterson without enormous difficulty he respected Floyd and felt no overwhelming urge to return to the ring. With the championship belt residing in Sweden in the hands of the swaggering Johansson the Rock let it be known he would welcome the opportunity to bring the title home.
He would come out of retirement to fight Johansson!
The bout was scheduled for February 2, 1961 at Yankee Stadium. Ingemar was an 11-5 favorite at the outset but the odds had shrunk to 7-5 on the eve of the battle. Rocky had tortured his 38 year old body with four months of arduous training. The champion trained as was his custom, casually in public yet rigorous enough when the TV cameras were out of sight. Ingo was in top shape and his only pre fight comment was one heard often before. "When I hit him on the chin with my right, he will fall".
Yankee Stadium was filled to capacity as referee Ruby Goldstein called the two contestants to ring center. Marciano looked slightly pulply at a career high 192 pounds while the big Swede tipped the scales at 195 1/2 lbs. The opening bell saw the ex champion advancing on Johansson, practically telegraphing hispunches and missing badly. Ingo did little except flick his left jab into the challenger's face and tie him on several occasions. The pattern repeated itself in the second stanza except late in the round Marciano began shortening up on his punches and reached the Swede with a solid left hook to the liver at the bell. Johansson hadn't really landed on Rocky who was worked hard to shake the ring rust generated by five years of inactivity.
Marciano spent the first two minutes of the third hurling punches at Johansson's arms, shoulders and midsection. He was doing little visible damage and tiring himself in the process. The titleholder was contributing very little to the bout until the two minute twenty second mark. Then, emerging from a clinch, Ingo hit Rocky with the right!
As it always did, the mysterious "Toonder and Lightening" Johansson straight right seemed to have a mind of its own. It exploded flush against Marciano's chin and the great ex champion staggered badly, his left knee nearly brushing the canvas. Immediately Rocky covered up as the champion clumsily drove a left hook to the body and missed another blockbuster right hand lead. The Rock was on Queer Street and he was in trouble. Quickly he tied up Ingemar, tryingto avert further damage. Johansson followed up and landed on Rocky with regularity over the last half minute of the round. However, Marciano had not gone down!
The Rock recovered from the near knockdown and resumed his methodical assault of Johansson during rounds four and five. Many of his punches crashed against the Swede's forearms, elbows and shoulders. Yet he was tiring the champion, who continued pressing forward, flicking out his jab, looking for an opening. Twice in the fifth Ingo banged his right hand off the top of Rocky's forehead. The blows had force! However, the Rock had taken Johansson's Sunday punch, the same booming right hand that separated Patterson from his senses twice. Five years inactivity notwithstanding, this was not Floyd Patterson he was facing.
In the sixth the Rock began to hurt Johansson. A left hook to the liver drove the titleholder into the ropes where Marciano drove two hard rights to the head before Ingo could escape. Ingemar was telegraphinghis punches and beginning to take punishment. There was a mouse under his left eye and his lower lip wasoozing claret. The ex-champion was timing Johansson's jab. With twenty seconds remaining in the round Rocky slipped under the jab and drove his right hand to the Swede's jaw. The Rock was off balance as he fired the punch and that alone saved Johansson. His knees buckled as he was able to force a clinch as the round came to a close.
The Champion's handlers talked feverishly to Ingo during the rest period. The ten year age difference mattered little as the bell rang for round seven. Ingemar surprised the Rock with three stiff jabs to the head during the first half minute.
Then Marciano, from a crouch, sent a crushing right to the Swede's ribcage. Ingemar was hurt and he desperately held, forcing Goldstein to separate the fighters. Johansson threw a ponderous right that sailed over Rocky's shoulder.
Rocky hooked a left to the jaw and drove a hard right to the heart. The Swedish Titleholder tied up the Rock again. Then Johansson attempted to escape to ring center. He wearily flicked out his jab to Rocky's bobbing head.
Marciano crouched under the tired jaw and connected with hisIron Mike, a powerful short right hand flush against Ingemar's jaw. It wasn't as potent as the shot that felled Walcott nine years earlier. It didn't have to be!
Johansson crumpled to the canvas, rolled over and remained prone as Goldsteintolled the ten count at 1:58 of the seventh round. The great Rocky Marciano had succeeded where Dempsey, Schmeling, Walcott, Louis and Charles had failed. He had regained the Heavyweight Championship of the World!
Cyber Boxing Zone
This guy chose a 7th round KO win for Marciano, though having one helluva hard start in the opening rounds, managing to stay up despite Ingo's power. Pretty much my own same opinion, though really thinking it over, probably would have taken Marciano a bit longer, maybe the 8th or 9th.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Hey, I like other fights and fighters just as much as anyone else, just I get sick and tired of most people in this forum trying to take away from Marciano's achievements and his status as a fighter.
Maybe the Marciano talk is overwhelming to some, but I like to speculate on whether or not this comeback could have been done---boxing is full of what if's and Marciano is possibly the biggest what if of them all.
Joke all you want or whatever, but if your going to comment on a subject, do so with some actual focus on the subject at hand, not piss all over it because Marciano is the talk of the forum more than other fighters.
Maybe the Marciano talk is overwhelming to some, but I like to speculate on whether or not this comeback could have been done---boxing is full of what if's and Marciano is possibly the biggest what if of them all.
Joke all you want or whatever, but if your going to comment on a subject, do so with some actual focus on the subject at hand, not piss all over it because Marciano is the talk of the forum more than other fighters.
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Thunder and Lightning
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 177
- Joined: 11 Jul 2006, 10:40
I read alot of posts that say that Rocky disliked Ingo but when I read Ingemars biography it seams as though they acctualy got along well.
when Ingemar trained before the patterson fights Rocky visited alot and talked with Ingemar very friendly so i don't know can somebody tell me were it says Rocky disliked Ingo.
By the way Rocky was Ingemars favorite heavyweight of all time.
when Ingemar trained before the patterson fights Rocky visited alot and talked with Ingemar very friendly so i don't know can somebody tell me were it says Rocky disliked Ingo.
By the way Rocky was Ingemars favorite heavyweight of all time.
Rocky relied so much on his superb conditioning that his career was never going to be a long one. His output, stamina, mental strength and power were fantastic but he was ageing fast and I don't think he could have dusted the cobwebs off and come back to beat Ingo. In a prime-for-prime match up Marciano would win but not in 1960.