Light Welterweights

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 05 Dec 2005, 06:36

Ben Keilty wrote:
silkov wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote: Have you only seen the Hatton fight, Tszyu's top5 easily in this division 259-11 as amature and 31-2 as a pro.
I've seen all Kostyas fights and he was a good fighter but not a great one, he doesn't merit a top 5 place imo... a lot of great fighters have fought at this weight and have fought better competition to Tszyu...
Who has fought more world champions at this weight than Tszyu. Or beaten better opposition, you are judging the last few fights have you really seen fights like Hugo Pineda or Gonzales or Rueles.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Dec 2005, 07:16

Ben Keilty wrote:
silkov wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote: Have you only seen the Hatton fight, Tszyu's top5 easily in this division 259-11 as amature and 31-2 as a pro.
I've seen all Kostyas fights and he was a good fighter but not a great one, he doesn't merit a top 5 place imo... a lot of great fighters have fought at this weight and have fought better competition to Tszyu...
Who has fought more world champions at this weight than Tszyu.

Well off the top of my head Tony Canzoneri fought 11 world champions and Jack Kid Berg fought at least 9 world champions... and these were 'real' world champions not the fake wbos and ibfs etcs that you get today. You need to look back into history a bit as while you may be impressed with Kostya the achievements of fighters like Berg, Canzoneri and Barney Ross make what he did pale by comparison. If you look at Kostyas career and compare it to these men you can see the difference between good and great... you need to do more than hold onto a title for a few years to be truly great.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 05 Dec 2005, 08:59

Aaron Pryor was the greatest Jr welterweight of all time...What a non stop punching machine!!!

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 05 Dec 2005, 15:41

Julio Cesar Chavez was the greatest super lightweight/ junior welterweight/ light welterweight of all time. His numbers and quality of opposition attest to the fact that he was consistently greater for a longer period of time than any other fighter in history at 140 pounds.

Julio Cesar Chavez was the best in this division.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Dec 2005, 16:20

Aftermath wrote:Julio Cesar Chavez was the greatest super lightweight/ junior welterweight/ light welterweight of all time. His numbers and quality of opposition attest to the fact that he was consistently greater for a longer period of time than any other fighter in history at 140 pounds.

Julio Cesar Chavez was the best in this division.

There were other champs who reigned at 140 far longer than Chavez, Cervantes and Pryor for example to name just two and they along with others fought better opposition and were more dominant at 140 than chavez. Chavez always struggled a bit at 140. A top 10 140er but not the best.

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 05 Dec 2005, 17:52

Julio Cesar Chavez fought and beat more champions than Antonio Cervantes and Aaron Pryor. At 140 Chavez could handle speed and power by crushing Meldrick Taylor physically and leaving him with broken bones and bleeding organs and walking through KO artist Roger Mayweather’s best shots. Cervantes and Pryor were knocked down and staggered by has-beens and never-weres. Pryor’s biggest victory was over an old Arguello who was fighting way above his natural weight class.

The Hawk’s title fight numbers and opposition don’t compare to Chavez’. Cervantes had as many title fights at 140 as Chavez but was not consistent as Kid Pambele lost when he stepped up in quality opposition even while still in his prime. Chavez’ set backs came when he was obviously past his prime. In his 20’s and early 30’s Chavez remained unbeatable against the very best of his era.

At 140 pounds, Chavez is the one. His longevity and quality of opposition make Julio Cesar Chavez the best 140 pound champion of all time.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Dec 2005, 07:43

Aftermath wrote:Julio Cesar Chavez fought and beat more champions than Antonio Cervantes and Aaron Pryor. At 140 Chavez could handle speed and power by crushing Meldrick Taylor physically and leaving him with broken bones and bleeding organs and walking through KO artist Roger Mayweather’s best shots. Cervantes and Pryor were knocked down and staggered by has-beens and never-weres. Pryor’s biggest victory was over an old Arguello who was fighting way above his natural weight class.

The Hawk’s title fight numbers and opposition don’t compare to Chavez’. Cervantes had as many title fights at 140 as Chavez but was not consistent as Kid Pambele lost when he stepped up in quality opposition even while still in his prime. Chavez’ set backs came when he was obviously past his prime. In his 20’s and early 30’s Chavez remained unbeatable against the very best of his era.

At 140 pounds, Chavez is the one. His longevity and quality of opposition make Julio Cesar Chavez the best 140 pound champion of all time.

Taylor was originally a 135 who shouldn't have been moved up to 140 so fast, Roger Mayweather was a 130 fighter who was past his best... the majority of fighters Chavez fought at 140 were ex 135 and 130 fighters moving up and often past their best... and none were as good as someone like Arguello. If you think Cervantes and Pryor only fought hasbeens then you really don't know what you're talking about!. The only men to beat Cervantes in 21 world title fights were Nicholino Loche, Wilfredo Benitez and Arron Pryor.... all three of whom are all time greats in their own right and would have beaten Chavez quite handily.

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 06 Dec 2005, 11:45

Taylor was originally a 135 who shouldn't have been moved up to 140 so fast, Roger Mayweather was a 130 fighter who was past his best... the majority of fighters Chavez fought at 140 were ex 135 and 130 fighters moving up and often past their best... and none were as good as someone like Arguello. If you think Cervantes and Pryor only fought hasbeens then you really don't know what you're talking about!. The only men to beat Cervantes in 21 world title fights were Nicholino Loche, Wilfredo Benitez and Arron Pryor.... all three of whom are all time greats in their own right and would have beaten Chavez quite handily.[/quote]

It’s obvious you don’t know that Chavez started out at featherweight and beat a naturally bigger fighter and top champion in Mayweather twice. It’s obvious to anyone that Meldrick Taylor was a solid 140 pound champion and was headed for greatness until he was derailed by an express train called Julio Cesar Chavez.

Chavez would have taken Locche, Benitez and Pryor apart. History has proven that they didn’t have the numbers, consistency and quality of opposition that can match JC Superstar.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Dec 2005, 11:52

Aftermath wrote:Taylor was originally a 135 who shouldn't have been moved up to 140 so fast, Roger Mayweather was a 130 fighter who was past his best... the majority of fighters Chavez fought at 140 were ex 135 and 130 fighters moving up and often past their best... and none were as good as someone like Arguello. If you think Cervantes and Pryor only fought hasbeens then you really don't know what you're talking about!. The only men to beat Cervantes in 21 world title fights were Nicholino Loche, Wilfredo Benitez and Arron Pryor.... all three of whom are all time greats in their own right and would have beaten Chavez quite handily.

It’s obvious you don’t know that Chavez started out at featherweight and beat a naturally bigger fighter and top champion in Mayweather twice. It’s obvious to anyone that Meldrick Taylor was a solid 140 pound champion and was headed for greatness until he was derailed by an express train called Julio Cesar Chavez.

Chavez would have taken Locche, Benitez and Pryor apart. History has proven that they didn’t have the numbers, consistency and quality of opposition that can match JC Superstar.[/quote]

Its obvious you don't know what your talking about. How do you know Taylor was headed for greatness???.... fighters like Pryor and Cervantes fought boxers who had acheived greatness and proved themselves great champions. Jack Kid Berg, Barny Ross, Tony Canzoneri... to name just a few, were all great champions at 140 who fought a far wider and more talented opposition to Chavez.... you only need to look at their records to see that!... Chavez was a great fighter, I am not disputing that, but he wasn't the best ever at 140 by quite a long way......

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Dec 2005, 11:56

My simple answer for this in terms of Tszyu is my often stated belief that as time goes by, boxers are truly improving. I'm not really argueing with others who don't place Kostya in this league but I think it deserves consideration.

I know some will say just the opposite and there is a good body of evidence to support that allegation, especially in the HW division.

But i think there is evolution on the bones of the old greats.

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 06 Dec 2005, 12:15

silkov wrote:
Aftermath wrote:Taylor was originally a 135 who shouldn't have been moved up to 140 so fast, Roger Mayweather was a 130 fighter who was past his best... the majority of fighters Chavez fought at 140 were ex 135 and 130 fighters moving up and often past their best... and none were as good as someone like Arguello. If you think Cervantes and Pryor only fought hasbeens then you really don't know what you're talking about!. The only men to beat Cervantes in 21 world title fights were Nicholino Loche, Wilfredo Benitez and Arron Pryor.... all three of whom are all time greats in their own right and would have beaten Chavez quite handily.
It’s obvious you don’t know that Chavez started out at featherweight and beat a naturally bigger fighter and top champion in Mayweather twice. It’s obvious to anyone that Meldrick Taylor was a solid 140 pound champion and was headed for greatness until he was derailed by an express train called Julio Cesar Chavez.

Chavez would have taken Locche, Benitez and Pryor apart. History has proven that they didn’t have the numbers, consistency and quality of opposition that can match JC Superstar.

Its obvious you don't know what your talking about. How do you know Taylor was headed for greatness???.... fighters like Pryor and Cervantes fought boxers who had acheived greatness and proved themselves great champions. Jack Kid Berg, Barny Ross, Tony Canzoneri... to name just a few, were all great champions at 140 who fought a far wider and more talented opposition to Chavez.... you only need to look at their records to see that!... Chavez was a great fighter, I am not disputing that, but he wasn't the best ever at 140 by quite a long way......[/quote]

It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about. Chavez was the best. His career compared to Canzoneri, Carlos Ortiz, Berg, Pryor and any other fighter at 140 prove that. Look it up yourself.

Without checking boxrec name all the fighters that beat and knocked down Canzoneri, Ortiz, Pryor, Berg, etc. In his prime Chavez never suffered a loss or even a knockdown during his long unbeaten streak while beating the best of his era.

If the above mentioned boxers lost to and were knocked down by mediocre fighters, then Chavez surely would have beaten them. All you can do is speculate, but Chavez’ numbers and track record put him at the top as the best.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 06 Dec 2005, 12:50

Aftermath wrote:
silkov wrote:
Aftermath wrote:Taylor was originally a 135 who shouldn't have been moved up to 140 so fast, Roger Mayweather was a 130 fighter who was past his best... the majority of fighters Chavez fought at 140 were ex 135 and 130 fighters moving up and often past their best... and none were as good as someone like Arguello. If you think Cervantes and Pryor only fought hasbeens then you really don't know what you're talking about!. The only men to beat Cervantes in 21 world title fights were Nicholino Loche, Wilfredo Benitez and Arron Pryor.... all three of whom are all time greats in their own right and would have beaten Chavez quite handily.
It’s obvious you don’t know that Chavez started out at featherweight and beat a naturally bigger fighter and top champion in Mayweather twice. It’s obvious to anyone that Meldrick Taylor was a solid 140 pound champion and was headed for greatness until he was derailed by an express train called Julio Cesar Chavez.

Chavez would have taken Locche, Benitez and Pryor apart. History has proven that they didn’t have the numbers, consistency and quality of opposition that can match JC Superstar.
Its obvious you don't know what your talking about. How do you know Taylor was headed for greatness???.... fighters like Pryor and Cervantes fought boxers who had acheived greatness and proved themselves great champions. Jack Kid Berg, Barny Ross, Tony Canzoneri... to name just a few, were all great champions at 140 who fought a far wider and more talented opposition to Chavez.... you only need to look at their records to see that!... Chavez was a great fighter, I am not disputing that, but he wasn't the best ever at 140 by quite a long way......

It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about. Chavez was the best. His career compared to Canzoneri, Carlos Ortiz, Berg, Pryor and any other fighter at 140 prove that. Look it up yourself.

Without checking boxrec name all the fighters that beat and knocked down Canzoneri, Ortiz, Pryor, Berg, etc. In his prime Chavez never suffered a loss or even a knockdown during his long unbeaten streak while beating the best of his era.

If the above mentioned boxers lost to and were knocked down by mediocre fighters, then Chavez surely would have beaten them. All you can do is speculate, but Chavez’ numbers and track record put him at the

top as the best.[/quote]

So Wilfred Benitez and Nicolino Loche were mediocre fighters were they?.... and Canzoneri, Berg and Ross fought mediocre opposition too!?... you obviously have just watched a few Chavez fights and think that is the be all and end all of boxing. Why don't you look up the records of the men Conzoneri, Berg, Ross, Loche, Cervantes, Benitez, Pryor etc fought and tell me why they were mediocre and why Chavezs opposition was superior?... all you doing is speculating as well but the diference is that you are saying about a 20 odd hall of fame fighters were mediocre!... bet that takes a lot of research......

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Dec 2005, 14:37

well barney ross certainly rates up there, did chavez ever beat a tony canzoneri or jimmy mclarnin?

- i would prob rate chavez # 1 all time JW

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 06 Dec 2005, 14:39

I’ve seen fight films of Joe Gans, Barney Ross, Canzoneri, Kid Berg, Benny Leonard, Carlo Ortiz. I know all about them and more and I am convinced Chavez would have beaten them all. Benitez and Locche were good fighters that Cervantes faced but losses to some guys named Victor Cano and Francisco Bolivar??? Oh yeah, THAT’S not mediocre…

I’ve watched too many old fighters and collected many more videos and books on boxing to firmly conclude that Chavez would have beaten Cervantes and the aforementioned fighters. You’re not going to tell me anything I didn’t already know a long time ago.

The facts and the track records speak for themselves. I am convinced Chavez was the best and had a better career at 140. Go look it up.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Dec 2005, 14:43

In my book if you bring Chavez into this weight class he would be in the top three. I just off handedly decided he peaked in another weight class.

Some are very clear they feel this was his best.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Dec 2005, 14:51

Aftermath wrote:I’ve seen fight films of Joe Gans, Barney Ross, Canzoneri, Kid Berg, Benny Leonard, Carlo Ortiz. I know all about them and more and I am convinced Chavez would have beaten them all. Benitez and Locche were good fighters that Cervantes faced but losses to some guys named Victor Cano and Francisco Bolivar??? Oh yeah, THAT’S not mediocre…

I’ve watched too many old fighters and collected many more videos and books on boxing to firmly conclude that Chavez would have beaten Cervantes and the aforementioned fighters. You’re not going to tell me anything I didn’t already know a long time ago.

The facts and the track records speak for themselves. I am convinced Chavez was the best and had a better career at 140. Go look it up.

joe gans is a lightweight, but if ur talking a fight between him and chavez at lightweight, gans would school chavez.

if u want to make another thread and debate it go ahead.

gans wide 15 unanimous chavez

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Dec 2005, 14:53

o yes, i might add i think floyd mayweather jr would beat chavez due to styles

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:12

Joe Gans was knocked down repeatedly and lost to fighters who threw wild lunging punches. Chavez’ sustained and controlled attack would have dismantled Gans.

Floyd Mayweather basically employs Uncle Roger’s style but with sharper reflexes. Based on Chavez’ two knockout wins over Roger and the fact that Floyd struggled with and almost lost to Chavez’ sparring partner I have to say that Chavez batters Floyd late and beats him in a convincing win.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:16

Hey Aftermath, If your going with that arguement, I think Floyd would have been standing at the final bell, So he might have made good where Taylor just came up short.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:35

Joe Gans was knocked down repeatedly and lost to fighters who threw wild lunging punches. Chavez’ sustained and controlled attack would have dismantled Gans.

don't u know joe gans was involved in a lot of suspicious fights, nd taking dives? though only a couple are proven fakes, there were most likely more of them.

- also as u probably know, in many of gans fights he would climb into the ring basically on cuffs and be ordered to carry opponents he would haave tooled on. thats why most of the ND were really gans wins

- gans fought at a time of HUGE RACISM and its amazing he did that well, really uthinkable.

the mcgovern fight is an already known robbery. i believe one other fight was a proven fake, ill have to go check.

- in ther erne fight, gans had to quit or he would go blind. he got headbutted and his eye became almost dislocated from the socket and was basically dangling out! gans obviousely had to quit!

- in the rematch gans totally dominated erne in 1 round coming up with a pre fight complex game plan to negate ernes big left.

do u realize gans in his prime fought far more fightss than chavez, beat better fighters, and barely lossed at all WHICH IS AMAZING FOR FIGHTERS BACK IN THE DAY SINCE THEY FOUGHT SO MUCH!

-Gans was a defensive master as well as a devastating puncher. He attacked vital points with pinpoint accuracy and threw every punch perfectly, in combinations and with bewildering speed. He was a master at counter punching, of the now lost art of feinting, and at the neglected art of body punching. Gans, in essence, was the complete all around package.

-Gans had probably the best defense of all time. He used to time it and perfect his motion so that he would barely have to move his head, making his opponent miss by a couple inches, making it far easier for him to counter and get his opponent off balance.

- Joe Gans also had a lot of speed and incredible footwork. Jack Johnson said of gan "Joe moved around like he was on wheels."

- chavez did not match up well vs defensive or speedy fighters. gans had a big mixture of both that would present a horrible style matchup for chavez.

imagine a pernell whitaker with more power and more speed and you got joe gans. HOW IN THE WORLD IS CHAVEZ GOING TO BEAT THAT?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:37

yeah ur right, because floyd mayweather jr was exactley like uncle roger

- roger was a great fighter, but not as good as his nephew in terms of all around fighting abilities

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:41

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Joe Gans was knocked down repeatedly and lost to fighters who threw wild lunging punches. Chavez’ sustained and controlled attack would have dismantled Gans.

-Gans was a defensive master as well as a devastating puncher. He attacked vital points with pinpoint accuracy and threw every punch perfectly, in combinations and with bewildering speed. He was a master at counter punching, of the now lost art of feinting, and at the neglected art of body punching. Gans, in essence, was the complete all around package.

Lost art? Mate, you see all the top fighters using it. What's lost about it?

Don't get carried away with the hyperbole, Brocky.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:53

the art of feinting is defintley lost compared to old times and even the best that use it hardly use too much in there arsenal. you rarely see it anymore, certainly not as much as back then where it was a highly common trick to use.

- only certain fighters frequentley use it today like back then, and in heavyweight division only one i have seen do it in quite a while is james toney who watches lots of film on archie moore, and jersey joe walcott.

but it was defintley used a lot more frequentley in the past and its an old school method that is seems to be decling more and more as times go by.

Aftermath · Post by **Aftermath** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:55

Meldrick Taylor had more speed and threw more punches in combinations than Floyd Mayweather. It’s also true that Floyd has sharper reflexes than Roger but hasn’t scored one punch knockouts over quality opposition like Roger. Chavez got through Taylor’s speed and Mayweather’s power and physically battered them and knocked them out both twice. Chavez would do the same to Floyd.

Joe Gans dubious career is more reason to pick even Benny Leonard and Roberto Duran over Gans. I still say Chavez over Gans in a fair fight

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Dec 2005, 16:06

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:the art of feinting is defintley lost compared to old times and even the best that use it hardly use too much in there arsenal. you rarely see it anymore, certainly not as much as back then where it was a highly common trick to use.

- only certain fighters frequentley use it today like back then, and in heavyweight division only one i have seen do it in quite a while is james toney who watches lots of film on archie moore, and jersey joe walcott.

but it was defintley used a lot more frequentley in the past and its an old school method that is seems to be decling more and more as times go by.

Don't get carried away, Brocky. A feint is simply a means of deceiving your opponent into believing you are about to throw a certain punch or move in a certain direction. It's taught in every boxing gym and is seen to some extent in almost every fight, unless you have a couple of cavemen in the ring. Of course, some fighters are better at it than others and, consequently, use it more often.