Light Welterweights

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 30 Nov 2005, 10:12

Who would you say was the greatest lightwelterweight of all time?

If these were to fight who would come out on top most often?

J.C. Chavez

Aaron Pryor

Niccolio Locche

Kostya Tszyu

Duilio Loi

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 30 Nov 2005, 12:06

I'd want to include Whittaker, Canzoneri, Benitez, Cervantes and Barney Ross.

Of the guys you pick I'd fancy Chavez by virtue of his chin and punch rate.

theone · Post by **theone** » 30 Nov 2005, 12:14

I agree with Ezzard. Chavez is the greatest lightwelter ever.

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 Nov 2005, 12:49

I would have to go with Chavez!!!

theone · Post by **theone** » 30 Nov 2005, 14:27

Pryor, Ross, Canzoneri, Loche, Benitez, Cervantez, Whitaker and Mayweather Jr.

Before Chavez lost to Randell, Chavez had faced and beaten better all around compitition than any of the fighters you mentioned. Taylor,Camacho,Haugen,Uncle Roger, are all top level fighters who were still at or close to their prime when they fought Chavez. Not to mention such top contenders like Angel Hernandez,lighting Lonnie Smith, frankie Randell, and Sammy Fuentes, John Duplessess and Albert Cortes. He beat some good fighters after Randell, but by then he was really done.
Whitakers the only one you mention that i could see beating Chavez. But I would pick JC superstar to win most of their encounters while in his prime.

theone · Post by **theone** » 30 Nov 2005, 15:01

Ross actually did fairly well against Henry Armstrong's onslaught until he faded, and I don't see Chavez throwing nearly enough punches to slow Ross down

Ross was not competitive with Armstorng at all. He did not have the punch to keep Armstrong off of him. He would be a little more affective against Chavez but not enough to beat him.

Canzoneri? You call Taylor, Camacho and Haugen great, but fail to mention McLarnin, Kid Chocolate, Ambers and Jadik?

Great fighters no doubt, I still believe Chavez fought better all around competition at Jr Welter than Canozari.

And how the hell would Chavez deal with the defense of Loche and Benitez?

He would have them on defense all night. They wouldnt be able to mount much in the way of offense.

CHavez would have been the 3rd great fighter to beat Cervantes. And it would not have been that hard.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Nov 2005, 18:54

What about Jack 'kid' Berg!.... I don't see Chavez coming out on top at 140... I think Benitez, Pryorr, Cervantes, Loche, Berg, Canzoneri and Ross rate higher... I never found Chavez that convincing at 140...

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 30 Nov 2005, 19:56

silkov wrote:What about Jack 'kid' Berg!.... I don't see Chavez coming out on top at 140... I think Benitez, Pryorr, Cervantes, Loche, Berg, Canzoneri and Ross rate higher... I never found Chavez that convincing at 140...

Jeez, Pete, we can't keep agreeing like this. I never thought Chavez was that dominant at 140 either.

Jack 'Kid' Berg! Now there was a bloke with a great story.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Nov 2005, 20:09

Of the TRUE Light Welters I'd go this way. Not in any order and some of those other names would certainly bump some of these but I'm trying to focus on who I think genuinely peaked at this weight.

Loche
Cervantes
Tszyu
Pryor
Whitaker

Randineous · Post by **Randineous** » 30 Nov 2005, 21:01

I wouldn't consider him the greatest Jr. Welterweight in history, but if Whitaker is getting named with what little he accomplished at this weight, this fighter definately wouldn't be out of place with a mention. Especially considering none of the Jr. Welterweights wanted anything to do with him when he was the #1 contender at 140 (which was his more natural weight).

Jose Napoles, anyone?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Nov 2005, 21:04

BoxBuzz wrote:Of the TRUE Light Welters I'd go this way. Not in any order and some of those other names would certainly bump some of these but I'm trying to focus on who I think genuinely peaked at this weight.

Loche
Cervantes
Tszyu
Pryor
Whitaker

No way Tszyu should be so high, good fighter but hardly an all time great!...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Nov 2005, 21:06

Collins2000 wrote:
silkov wrote:What about Jack 'kid' Berg!.... I don't see Chavez coming out on top at 140... I think Benitez, Pryorr, Cervantes, Loche, Berg, Canzoneri and Ross rate higher... I never found Chavez that convincing at 140...
Jeez, Pete, we can't keep agreeing like this. I never thought Chavez was that dominant at 140 either.

Jack 'Kid' Berg! Now there was a bloke with a great story.

Yes its worrying all this agreeing!.
I have the Berg book too... I saw him a couple of times in the 80s at fights...

Irish · Post by **Irish** » 30 Nov 2005, 21:29

BoxBuzz wrote: No way Tszyu should be so high, good fighter but hardly an all time great!...

you must be joking

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 30 Nov 2005, 21:40

It's nice to see a post about this weight class which doesn't get a lot of attention. I guess I would have to go with Pryor; he was a punching machine.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Nov 2005, 23:56

I'm not surprised that Silkov does not agree with me about Kostya but he was at the top of the division for a decade.....thats some serious amount of time. It may be too soon for some to start thinking of him as one of the greatest but I think he belongs there.

Anyone it was in no order and it assumed that some other greats simply peaked at another weight division. I tried to go with true Jr welters.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 01 Dec 2005, 02:10

Decagon wrote:Collins, are you the same Collins from Boxing Talk's Classic Forum? I'm Decagon from there.

No, that's a young guy who stole my act. I don't like to talk about it.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 01 Dec 2005, 14:34

Collins2000 wrote:
Decagon wrote:Collins, are you the same Collins from Boxing Talk's Classic Forum? I'm Decagon from there.
No, that's a young guy who stole my act. I don't like to talk about it.

Give over!

... you mean there are two of you!!!.. 8)

.. aahhhhh!...

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 01 Dec 2005, 18:01

At 140lbs for me have to be Benitez, he did had the best defence and boxing skills to outboxed Chavez, Cervantes,prior, loche anyone. None of them would have been able to touch him at his peak. He was call the bible of boxing because at 140lb he was the best. Just my opinion.

e.c.flurry · Post by **e.c.flurry** » 01 Dec 2005, 18:42

borinken25 wrote:At 140lbs for me have to be Benitez, he did had the best defence and boxing skills to outboxed Chavez, Cervantes,prior, loche anyone. None of them would have been able to touch him at his peak. He was call the bible of boxing because at 140lb he was the best. Just my opinion.

well benitez certainly was great at this weight hard as heell to beat but my list would be something like.

1 Pryor
2 Whitaker (135 pounder went up all the way to 154 an still gave people problems everyone got frustrated didnt have a at 140 but its his closest to prime weight where he did have an awesome legacy)
3 Chavez (he was old but he still had something left at this point)
4 benitez (can swap it for chavez)
5 napoles (my favorite cuban boxer)
6 tzyu (he would get out boxed by a couple of these defensive fighters but he is great)
7 loche (el intocable would be a good mention )

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 01 Dec 2005, 18:44

Junior Welterweights? Super Lightweights? Light Welterweights? What's the reason of all this names' changes for the same weight?

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 01 Dec 2005, 18:50

There were very good fighters in this weight; if you see in this moment the fight between Nicolino Locche and Paul Fujii, it's very easy to consider Locche the greatest: in that fight he likes Benny Leonard. Too, there are others big like Duilio Loi, Carlos Ortiz, Eddie Perkins, Carlos "Morocho" Hernández and all the others who were mentioned

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 01 Dec 2005, 21:32

silkov wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Of the TRUE Light Welters I'd go this way. Not in any order and some of those other names would certainly bump some of these but I'm trying to focus on who I think genuinely peaked at this weight.

Loche
Cervantes
Tszyu
Pryor
Whitaker
No way Tszyu should be so high, good fighter but hardly an all time great!...

Have you only seen the Hatton fight, Tszyu's top5 easily in this division 259-11 as amature and 31-2 as a pro.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 02 Dec 2005, 03:40

Decagon wrote:Tszyu was frustratingly hot-and-cold. He'd have a brilliant performance against Ben Tackie (which no one saw) and follow it up by looking like crap against Jesse Leija and winning on an injury. Loche, Pryor and so many others built their respective reputations on being their best every night. If Tszyu fought Loche, which Kostya would show up? The smart fighter with beautiful, straight punches with both hands, or the peri-motivated fighter who was knocked out by Vince Phillips? I KNOW which Pryor would show up, but I don't know which Tszyu would show up, so I'd naturally go with the consistent fighter.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 02 Dec 2005, 08:16

Ben Keilty wrote:
silkov wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Of the TRUE Light Welters I'd go this way. Not in any order and some of those other names would certainly bump some of these but I'm trying to focus on who I think genuinely peaked at this weight.

Loche
Cervantes
Tszyu
Pryor
Whitaker
No way Tszyu should be so high, good fighter but hardly an all time great!...
Have you only seen the Hatton fight, Tszyu's top5 easily in this division 259-11 as amature and 31-2 as a pro.

I've seen all Kostyas fights and he was a good fighter but not a great one, he doesn't merit a top 5 place imo... a lot of great fighters have fought at this weight and have fought better competition to Tszyu...

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 05 Dec 2005, 06:30

silkov wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote:
silkov wrote: No way Tszyu should be so high, good fighter but hardly an all time great!...
Have you only seen the Hatton fight, Tszyu's top5 easily in this division 259-11 as amature and 31-2 as a pro.
I've seen all Kostyas fights and he was a good fighter but not a great one, he doesn't merit a top 5 place imo... a lot of great fighters have fought at this weight and have fought better competition to Tszyu...

Who has fought more world champions at this weight than Tszyu.