BoxRec

Dempsey KO 8 Sullivan
Louis KO 7 Fitzsimmons
Johnson Dec 15 Marciano (By far the most competitive fight)
Ali KO 13 Walcott

Here's my predictions for these fights:

1. Jack Dempsey vs. John L. Sullivan
I think that Dempsey just has to much to offer Sullivan, his punching ability wins him the day. DEMPSEY WINS BY KO round 9.

2. Joe Louis vs. Bob Fitzsimmons
Joe Louis would dazzle Fitzsimmons with a display of punching combinations that Bob has nightmares about. LOUIS WIN BY KO round 5.

3. Rocky Marciano vs. Jack Johnson
I predict that a defensive Johnson wouldn't have enough to stop Rocky. Then in the later rounds Marciano grinds him into the corner and pounds until Johnson's body collaspses. MARCIANO WINS BY KO round 11.

4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. Muhammad Ali
Ali brings his jab and counters to Walcott but find that JJ has boxing technique that matches his own. They match each other round-after-round and it goes to the judges. ALI WINS ON POINTS (due to the fact that he was slightly more agressive that Walcott)...

Crease wrote:The Quarter Finals HAVE BEEN DRAWN!

Here they are:

1. Jack Dempsey vs. John L. Sullivan

2. Joe Louis vs. Bob Fitzsimmons

3. Rocky Marciano vs. Jack Johnson

4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. Muhammad Ali

1. Dempsey 14 round KO

2. Joe Louis 8 round KO

3. Rocky Marciano SD

4. Muhammad Ali 15 round KO

Crease wrote:Here's my predictions for these fights:

1. Jack Dempsey vs. John L. Sullivan
I think that Dempsey just has to much to offer Sullivan, his punching ability wins him the day. DEMPSEY WINS BY KO round 9.

What about Suillivan's puncihng ability? After all this is what he was famous for.

This would in all likelihood have been a short fight. I go for Dempsey only because in the 1920s they knew a bit more about boxing technique than in the 1890s.

3. Rocky Marciano vs. Jack Johnson
I predict that a defensive Johnson wouldn't have enough to stop Rocky. Then in the later rounds Marciano grinds him into the corner and pounds until Johnson's body collaspses. MARCIANO WINS BY KO round 11.

Hmmmmm...... stamina and outlasting his opponents was Johnson's great strenght.

Dempsey KO4 Sullivan
Louis UD15 Fitzsimmons
Johnson UD15 Marciano
Ali UD15 Walcott

Pundit said,
"What about Suillivan's puncihng ability? After all this is what he was famous for.
This would in all likelihood have been a short fight. I go for Dempsey only because in the 1920s they knew a bit more about boxing technique than in the 1890s."

I agree with you Pundit, boixers technique improved between the eras of Sullivan to Dempsey. HOWEVER, I still feel that (although Sullivan is renowned for being a strong-man with good feinting abilility), Dempsey in his prime would just be too fierce for Sullvian's straight-backed style.


As for Marciano-Johnson. While it's true that J Johnson could grind down his opponents, e would be (practially) impossible to grind down Rocky. If Rocky can take a barrages of punches from JJ Walcott (a master in the art of boxing practise) then he could take what Johson had to throw at him...

In the end, I believe that Marciano punched harder and was slightly more durable...

5 DAYS TO GO...

Keep posting please folks...

Here"s my two cents : Ali UD Walcott (Boring). Johnson easy UD over Marciano ( Johnson wins first five throwing punches in bunches then Marciano way to slow for defensive Johnson.) Louis KO Fitz in 3 ( to much fire power and evolution for 170Lb Fitzsimmons). Here is where im alone : Prime Sullivan was about 1883 , 5 10 1/2 190lbs , Dempsey 1919 6' 1" 185 . Sullivan is remembered for the Corbett fight , old , Fat , slow and 215lb. All accounts Young Sullivan , he was very quick , a raging bull with KO power in either hand. Search and destroy ASAP. He was Dempsey before Dempsey. Sure , he probably would of hit the deck first as Jacks shoulder rolls and ability would of confused him , But he would immediately crowded Dempsey and fought very close , wrestling at times . Its not who could throw better , but who could catch better ! I see a large version of Hagler vs Hearns. As Ray Leonard said ( theres no boxing here , just fighting ) . Dempsey Knocked cold by Jim Flynn in one . Rocked by 170lb Carpentier and rocked and beaten like a drum by Sharkey before he turned to Ref. Sullivan Wins KO 7 on pure Guts !

so....how many votes for Marciano in this???

I believe...so far its 10-5 in Johnson's favor, concerning the votes on this...I will say this...Brockton said IF Marciano could land a solid shot on Johnson, that it would be all over, right?

Well case in point:

Johnson was hit by Ketchell and dropped and Ketchell was sloppier than even Marciano and was a MIDDLEWEIGHT, though Ketchell would get blasted out with the next punch thrown, if Ketchell could drop Johnson, imagine the Rock landing flush?

Also Johnson was hit by Willard, and it was Willard's courage and determination, and his hard punch, that finally stopped Johnson, and by no means Marciano was a helluva lot better, stronger and maybe even tougher than Willard---maybe Willard had the reach, but that man was as sloppy as they came, and Marciano had that crouching style and bobbing and weaving, as well as defense down to a science.

AND....I never said Roland LaStarza was a top ten Heavyweight puncher!

I like Marciano in this matchup and I think he'd eventually catch up to Johnson and stop him late in the fight. Johnson would no doubt use his footwork, hand speed and defensive skills to build an early points lead, but I think he'd eventually tire from the constant pressure that Rocky would put on him and then get caught.

Johnson struggled in the closing rounds to Marvin Hart, who was a good fighter, but during this fight Johnson was in his prime. The fight belonged to Johnson, even the referee thought Johnson landed the harder punches, but a prime Johnson tiring against Marvin Hart? Struggle like that against an aggressive Marciano and you'll be off in la la land.

Johnson took hard shots throughout his career. Joe Choynski popped him a good one along with Jess Willard, so a suspect chin is iffy to say. The Ketchel fight was suppose to be for show until Ketchel made the mistake of hitting Johnson...we all know what happened soon after.

Marciano would keep coming in this fight, and as he showed against Walcott I, Charles I, and LaStarza I & II, he's eventually going to catch up and punish his opponent, no matter how skilled or tough they were. And for the prime Jack Johnson, who faded down the stretch against the aggressive, Marvin Hart, that spells some bad news.

The Rock, behind on all cards comes back to finish off a tired Johnson

Marciano, KO, 13

~Andre Fan~

Johnson's bout with Willard proves nothing. He was well past his best by that time, and even then I believe he dominated the first 20 rounds.

past his best? Johnson had trained harder for the Willard bout than he had against other opponents in years before. He dominated the first 20 rounds, and he got finally out willed and out clubbed---then had the audacity to say he threw the bout?

The Johnson of the Willard fight would have beaten alot of great fighters, even some ATG champions---don't say he was beyond his best, he couldn't have been to far passed his best, as AFTER he was champion he signed on to face Luis Firpo, but in an exhibition dropped the Argentinian virtually 16 times to the canvas, and the bout never materialised, and Firpo almost ended Dempsey!

Johnson's skills helped him get passed Willard for a long while, but it was Willards iron will and determination, and his height (Johnson had to punch up at times, so took an edge off) that helped him win, and also his thuddening power.

Now if Johnson could be dropped by Ketchell, stopped by Willard, lost to Marvin Hart, and his best wins were against over the hill Jefferies and Fitzsimmons and a controversial win over Langford, do you think he was really that good? He never fought a puncher like Marciano who never stopped throwing punches and had greater stamina and ability and power than most of the stiffs Johnson fought.

Now the votes are 10-6 in Johnson's favor.

I wish some people would come to their senses, Johnson was certainly not invincible and as equal to Ali ffs, even the so called best people in here voting said if Marciano could land a solid hard blow it would be over---the thought I propose is this:

If Ketchell, as wild and sloppy as he was, a Middleweight no less, could drop Johnson, who was one of the most skilled men in the sport, imagine what Marciano could do!

Fact is Johnson was 37 at the time (I know, young for some old for others) and never beat another quality opponent. Just look at Johnson's inactivity after 1909, 1 fight in 1910, no fights in 1911, 1 fight in 1912, 1 fight in 1913, 2 in 1914. 5 fights in 5 years, and the last 4 performances were nothing to write home about. I'd pick Marciano to KO the Johnson that Willard defeated, and probably in less than half as many rounds, but I'd still take the 1910 and earlier Johnson.

I seen the film, and though slow in places, Johnson pretty much won round for round for the first twenty, and he did drop Willard a few times, so you can't say it was a total snooze fest or that Johnson wasn't in condition.

As far as how inactive he was, after the Willard bout he served up to a year in prison, and he fought off and on until his 50's, though failing against much younger black men of the time, he did give alot of white fighters a helluva time (the Luis Firpo exhibition bout for instance was so one sided that the actual bout never materialised) and Johnson did call out Dempsey and hell even called out Joe Louis---but even Jack Blackburn said that Johnson couldn't stand a chance, even at his best, with Joe Louis.

It's all a matter of opinion, but I don't see Johnson being such a dominating force over Marciano, yes if he stayed away using his jab, he'd beat Marciano, but if he even tried to mix it up and go toe to toe, he wouldn't have survived.

Dempsey KO5 Sullivan

Louis KO1 Fitzsimmons

Marciano KO12 Johnson

Ali W15 Walcott

Scartissue

OoO....10-7 ...the votes are getting more closer to Marciano's favor 8)

AND....I never said Roland LaStarza was a top ten Heavyweight puncher!

thats right irish u didnt. u said "rex layne" was a top ten heavyweight puncher

Now if Johnson could be dropped by Ketchell, stopped by Willard, lost to Marvin Hart, and his best wins were against over the hill Jefferies and Fitzsimmons and a controversial win over Langford

controversial win over langford?? johnson DOMINATED LANGFORD knocking him down twice and winning nearly every round

If that be the case, then why did Johnson say straight to Langford's face that he would never get a title shot? Oh yea...Johnson was too busy with Jim Flynn and Jim Stewart and those other 'white hopes' who weren't worth the kiss of ur ass

Johnson defended his title once against one black man...and that black man was not the fighter that even Langford, Jeanette or McVey was, and Johnson had to settle for a draw, never mind that his arm was broken during the fight.

I could understand money being the deciding factor...but Johnson avoided the best fighters in the world when he was on top, was he really so dominate, or was it because he had more talent than lugs like Flynn, Stewart, Anderson, middleweight sloppy Ketchell, over the hill Jefferies and Fitzsimmons, Moran, Ross, Kaufman?

Outside of maybe Philadelphia Jack O'Brien whom he faced in defending his title, which was a NC that many felt O'Brien won, Johnson never faced great Heavyweights---he faced better opposition on his way up to the crown, than he did as champion. O'Brien was merely a blown up Middleweight, and schooled Johnson, yet wasn't given his due.

Johnson was better, yes than the white fighters of the time, but remember, boxing was still in it's infancy under the Marquis of Queensbury rules, and most competitors were just goons and street brawlers, very few was excellent fighters. Johnson was only dominate in my mind because everyone he fought, the white hopes, were no good to really begin with, with the exception of Jefferies and Fitzsimmons, but both men were so far passed their best.

AND....i never said Layne was a top ten anything...all I said was Lane was a 9-5 or 10-5 favorite over Marciano when they fought, and everybody figured Marciano couldn't stand up to Layne, but Marciano dropped Layne like a sack of shit in six rounds. All I was saying, was proving that no Marciano never really faced that many big punchers, but Layne and a few others were heavy hitters.

"Jack Johnson, the big colored heavyweight champion failed to win over Jack O'Brien, the Philadelphia light heavyweight, in a six-round bout. The fight was even and the consensus of opinion was that it should have been a draw, had a decision been permissable. O'Brien's marvelously fast footwork and his superior blocking saved him from damage in several close mixes, and three times he was forced to his knees by the great strenght and weight of Johnson in the clinches. It was a fast fight, O'Brien doing the greater part of the leading. Johnson was slow on his feet, and appeared not to be in the best condition. Repeatedly the champion rushed his smaller antagonist, but seldom landed effectively. A right-hand counter in the fifth round cut O'Brien's right eye, and this was the sum total of the damage done in the six rounds. Johnson had nothing to say after the bout except that he thought he had the better of it. O'Brien was enthusiastic over his showing. He said he had accepted a proposal to meet Al Kaufman in San Francisco in the near future." (Stevens Point Daily Journal)

The Johnson-O'Brien bout


"Jack Johnson stopped Bob Fitzsimmons in the second round of a six round boxing bout before the Washington Sporting Club tonight. Fitzsimmons did not show a trace of his former prowess and it is probable that Johnson could have stopped him in the opening round if he had cared to do so. The blow that put Fitzsimmons out was a light right to the jaw. The old man fell to the floor and as he made no attempt to rise, the referee stopped the bout. The hissing which usually follows knockouts of this character was absent, the spectators evidently taking compassion on the former pugilistic star. Referee Keenan refused to act in the ring, because he had heard that Fitzsimmons had a badly sprained arm. The manager of the club then entered the ring and watched the uneven match. In the opening round Johnson tapped Fitz when and where he chose, but the latter was unable to even land his famous counters." (Associated Press)
Fitzsimmons had torn ligaments in his right elbow, making the arm practically useless. New York Times

The Johnson-Fitzsimmons bout; clearly a disgrace, as Johnson fought an old man, with one effective arm. Yet this is held as one of his best victories.

This supports my claim, that for one, Johnson wasn't so world class as everyone thinks, and second, his so-called "best wins" were over over the hill men. Hell even his win over Burns could be stated as being a mismatch, with Burns only being 5'7" and more or less a Light Heavyweight. Then being floored by wildly sloppy Middleweight champion Ketchell. And then Johnson avoiding the real good fighters.

Marciano would cold cut this bastard sooner or later.

i apologize to irishrufusmurphy. i made a mistake. it was not him who said 'rex layne is the 10th hardest puncher in heavyweight history'.

it was poster "crease" who said. my apologies

If that be the case, then why did Johnson say straight to Langford's face that he would never get a title shot?

that doesnt take away from the fact jack johnson DOMINATED sam langford in 1906 knocking him down twice and giving him the beating of his life

Like I said...I can understand money being the deciding factor...but Johnson's victories when he started facing white fighters were not that impressive, and his reign as champion, I believe was only as long as it was because he faced nothing but bums.

Marciano on the other hand skipped the 'middle' of the division beating the best as beat the very best of his era...can't say that for Johnson, whose title reign was against as I said before over the hill shot fighters or goons or men much smaller than himself.

And thanks Brockton for your apology, I will accept it.

And I believe Langford was only dropped one time...but irregardless, Johnson defended his crown against one black man, Battling Jim Johnson, and Johnson was far from being a top ten contender, more like a top 50. McVey, Jeanette or Langford deserved a crack, and irregardless if that wasn't where the money was at, Johnson never really showed how great he was to me...and as I pointed out before his best wins were against either middleweight Ketchell, over the hill Fitzsimmons and Jefferies and diminuitive Tommy Burns.

10-7 still in the Marciano vs Johnson bout...

Does anyone have actual ringside reports from Johnson vs Langford ? I read Johnson dropped Langford twice, I heard it was only once, and I also heard that Langford outboxed Johnson for much of the fight. I believe Johnson later said he dominated the fight, but in fairness, Jack was never a reliable source.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I seen the film, and though slow in places, Johnson pretty much won round for round for the first twenty, and he did drop Willard a few times, so you can't say it was a total snooze fest or that Johnson wasn't in condition.

Irish

I haven't seen the fight in 20 years but I'm pretty sure Johnson has a decent looking 'beer belly' on him. If the fight had not been over 45 rounds Johnson would have won easily.