BoxRec

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 20:02**

Decagon wrote:I just tweaked the hell out of this list for the first solid time in about a year. I had been ranking Bob Fitzsimmons in my top 15 or 20 for quite a while, even though that went against several of my basic principles. I still have him in my top 30, simply because winning titles at 160, 175 and heavyweight is FUCKING AWESOME, but I often think of fighters who've accomplished similar feats, like Tommy Burns, Roy Jones and James Toney. Yeah, Jones and Toney only held the WBA title, and Toney had it stripped from him, but how different is that from a title that wasn't contested by black men?

My editor at Inside Fighting, Michael DiSanto, once briefly suggested that Michael Moorer could be ranked between #50 and #100 of all time, pound-for-pound. Craig Mendaris, another Inside Fighter writer, and I quickly disabused him of that idea, but the thinking behind it is very logical. Michael Moore at 175 was a killer, and he skipped up to heavyweight to beat Evander Holyfield - one of the greatest heavyweights of all time - for the World Heavyweight Championship. But there's a problem with that. Three of the best heavyweights of the era - Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe and Mike Tyson - were all frozen out of the title scene for various reasons. In a way, the situation is similar to the ones Tommy Burns and Bob Fitzsimmons found themselves in as champions. The best fighters couldn't fight for the title.

Anyway, here it is. I started drinking long before I started messing around with the list, so bear with me. I'll edit when I'm sober.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Jimmy Wilde
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Joe Louis
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ray Leonard
12. Eder Jofre
13. Willie Pep
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Archie Moore
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Gene Tunney
18. Michael Spinks
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Jack Dempsey
21. Roy Jones, Jr.
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Emile Griffith
24. Mickey Walker
25. Billy Conn
26. Alexis Arguello
27. Tommy Hearns
28. Bob Fitzsimmons
29. Bob Foster
30. Fighting Harada
31. Evander Holyfield
32. Sonny Liston
33. Rocky Marciano
34. Marcel Cerdan
35. Larry Holmes
36. Bernard Hopkins
37. Barney Ross
38. Sandy Saddler
39. Pasquel Perez
40. Charley Burley
41. Julio Cesar Chavez
42. Joe Frazier
43. Tony Canzoneri
44. Jose Napoles
45. Lloyd Marshall
46. Joe Gans
47. Chang Jung Koo
48. Holman Williams
49. Tiger Flowers
50. Tommy Burns

very good list

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 20:34**

Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Sam Langford
Joe Louis
Muhamed Ali
Benny Leonard
Jack Dempsey
Sandy Saddler
Willie Pep
Mickey Walker
Ezzard Charles
Charley Burley
Bob Foster
Gene Tunney
Terry Mcgovern
Ray Leonard
Archie Moore
Ike Williams
Billy Conn
Joe Gans
Kid Chocolate
Barney Ross
Jimmy McClarnin
Fritzie Zivic
Eder Jofre
Packey Mcfarland
Tommy Hearns
Alexis Arguello
Tommy Loughran
Jack Johnson
Jose Napoles
Jimmy Wilde
Jack Britton
Joe Frazier
Tony Canzoneri
Larry Holmes
Carlos Zarate
Kid Gavilan
Tiger Flowers
Emile Griffith
Pancho Villa
Rocky Marciano
Stanley Ketchell
Jake Lamotta
Beau Jack
Pascual Perez

Im sure I missed a few .

Posted: **23 Jul 2006, 03:22**

keep these lists coming

Posted: **23 Jul 2006, 10:51**

I've never gotten around to making a top 50 list, but of fighters not mentioned, the three most surprising ommissions are, Kid McCoy, Tommy Ryan and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien.

Of the fighters listed, the most disappointing is Julio Cesar Chavez, who deserves to be considerably higher. Had Chavez retired after KO'ing Terrance Alli in 93, he would have ended his career at 88-0. Had that occured I think a few people, even writers, would be making a case for Chavez being the greatest fighter of all time.

Posted: **23 Jul 2006, 11:11**

Of the fighters listed, the most disappointing is Julio Cesar Chavez, who deserves to be considerably higher. Had Chavez retired after KO'ing Terrance Alli in 93, he would have ended his career at 88-0. Had that occured I think a few people, even writers, would be making a case for Chavez being the greatest fighter of all time.

Well put. I ranked Chavez #11 on my list, but numbers 5 thru 11 are pretty interchangeable. Chavez lack of popularity with many boxing enthusiates (?) usually gets him undeservedly ranked below more popular fighters.

For example, I cant fathom why Hagler as great as he is is ranked so much higher than Chavez. Also fighter who didnt accomplish half of what Chavez did like Fighting Harada,Edie Jofre,Marcel Cerdan are inexplicable being ranked higher.
Then there is the sympathy votes Salvador Sanchez always gets when people rank him higher than Chavez.

Posted: **23 Jul 2006, 15:58**

I like especially Decagon's list (!!!!!!!!), but I wonder why you place Langford so high pfp if you consider him so lowly as a heavyweight (where, if I remember coirrecly, didn't even have him in the top 25). Btw, I prefer your pfp ranking (if this wans't obvious already).

Posted: **23 Jul 2006, 20:55**

I neglected Chavez by accident.
He should be on my list in the top 30.

Posted: **30 Jul 2006, 23:12**

Hagler and Roy jones should be in the top ten since they were both the best fighters of their decades. Duran too high.

My intuition tells me that Jack Johnson, who won the title long before Joe Louis ever did and without help from anyone is uheard of to this day so I naturally rank him higher.

McGovern, Loughran, Wilde, Arguello Abe Attell, Stan Ketchel, Napoles to replace Ray leonard and Sandler.

Posted: **30 Jul 2006, 23:56**

Out of ALL these top 50 list, and no Jack Delaney.

He is top 20 easy, if not top ten.

Posted: **03 Aug 2006, 01:46**

Decagon wrote:I'd argue that Leonard was the best fighter of the 1980s, but you do bring up an interesting point. A couple of years ago, I made these decade-by-decade rankings, and I've updated them a couple of times:

Decade Rankings:

1900s:

Heavyweight: Jack Johnson
Light Heavyweight: Tommy Burnz
Middleweight: Sam Langford
Welterweight: Joe Walcott
Lightweight: Joe Gans
Featherweight: Abe Attell
Bantamweight: Terry McGovern
Flyweight: Division not active
Pound-for-Pound: Sam Langford

1910s:

Heavyweight: Jack Johnson
Light Heavyweight: Sam Langford
Middleweight: Harry Greb
Welterweight: Jack Britton
Lightweight: Benny Leonard
Featherweight: Johnny Kilbane
Bantamweight: Pete Hermann
Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde
Pound-for-Pound: Benny Leonard

1920s:

Heavyweight: Jack Dempsey
Light Heavyweight: Gene Tunney
Middleweight: Harry Greb
Welterweight: Micky Walker
Lightweight: Benny Leonard
Featherweight: Tony Canzoneri
Bantamweight: Joe Lynch
Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde
Pound-for-Pound: Harry Greb

1930s:

Heavyweight: Joe Louis
Light Heavyweight: Billy Conn
Middleweight: Micky Walker
Welterweight: Henry Armstrong
Lightweight: Henry Armstrong
Featherweight: Henry Armstrong
Bantamweight: Panama Al Brown
Flyweight: Benny Lynch
Pound-for-Pound: Henry Armstrong

1940s:

Heavyweight: Joe Louis
Light Heavyweight: Ezzard Charles
Middleweight: Archie Moore
Welterweight: Sugar Ray Robinson
Lightweight: Beau Jack
Featherweight: Willie Pep
Bantamweight: Manuel Ortiz
Flyweight: Jackie Patterson
Pound-for-Pound: Sugar Ray Robinson

1950s:

Heavyweight: Rocky Marciano
Light Heavyweight: Archie Moore
Middleweight: Sugar Ray Robinson
Welterweight: Kid Gavilan
Lightweight: Ike Williams
Featherweight: Sandy Saddler
Bantamweight: Jimmy Carruthers
Flyweight: Pascual Perez
Pound-for-Pound: Sandy Saddler

1960s:

Heavyweight: Cassius Clay
Light Heavyweight: Bob Foster
Middleweight: Dick Tiger
Welterweight: Emile Griffith
Lightweight: Carlos Ortiz
Featherweight: Vicente Saldivar
Bantamweight: Eder Jofre
Flyweight: Fighting Harada
Pound-for-Pound: Eder Jofre

1970s:

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali
Light Heavyweight: Bob Foster
Middleweight: Carlos Monzon
Welterweight: Jose Napoles
Lightweight: Roberto Duran
Featherweight: Alexis Arguello
Bantamweight: Ruben Oliveres
Flyweight: Miguel Canto
Pound-for-Pound: Roberto Duran

1980s:

Heavyweight: Larry Holmes
Light Heavyweight: Michael Spinks
Middleweight: Marvin Hagler
Welterweight: Sugar Ray Leonard
Lightweight: Julio Cesar Chavez
Featherweight: Salvador Sanchez
Bantamweight: Jeff Fenech
Flyweight: Chang Jung-koo
Pound-for-Pound: Sugar Ray Leonard

1990s:

Heavyweight: Lennox Lewis
Light Heavyweight: Roy Jones
Middleweight: Bernard Hopkins
Welterweight: Oscar de la Hoya
Lightweight: Pernell Whitaker
Featherweight: Naseem Hamed
Bantamweight: Veerpohl Sahaprom
Flyweight: Humberto Gonzales
Pound-for-Pound: Roy Jones

Here's a list of the pound-for-pound champions (on my lists) for each decade, with his ranking on my top-50 list:
Sam Langford (4)

Benny Leonard (10)

Harry Greb (3)

Henry Armstrong (2)

Sugar Ray Robinson (1)

Sandy Saddler (17; I somehow accidentally put him at #38 on the above list)

Eder Jofre (12)

Roberto Duran (5)

Sugar Ray Leonard (11)

Roy Jones (21)
Saddler doesn't make the top 10, and is actually ranked behind some of the fighters of the 1950s, such as Archie Moore and Ray Robinson, but Moore and Robinson are ranked quite heavily based on what they did in the 1940s. Also, Saddler, in my mind, didn't stand out from his contemporaries as much as Langford, Leonard, Greb, Armstrong, Robinson, Leonard and Duran did. But, Roy Jones did. He was unquestionably the best fighter on the planet for seven or eight years, yet he doesn't make my top 20.

I think that in my case, I purposely underrate more current fighters. I had him around the same place I did before the John Ruiz fight, after the John Ruiz fight, before the Tarver and Johnson losses, and after the Tarver and Johnson losses. I just knew that his career could take a number of twists and turns.

great list but i can't see how you can't put trinidad ahead of de la hoya in the 90's, he was 16-0 in title fights including beating oscar in the 90's

Posted: **03 Aug 2006, 13:39**

Decagon wrote:Trinidad didn't beat De la Hoya; the judges did. De la Hoya beat Whitaker, Quartey, Chavez, Carr and Rivera. Trinidad had a good year in 1994, and caught up with a very badly coked-up Whitaker. He was a one-dimensional slugger (but about as good a one-dimensional slugger as there has ever existed), and he got exposed by every decent boxer he faced, and hit the canvas against nearly everyone.

Like always Decagon you are a joke. First DLH beating Whitaker was a close fight that could have gone either way, the Quartey was another very close fight that many people felt DLH lost, he beat up and old grandfather in Chavez, Carr was destroyed by Trinidad too, and Rivera was a Class C fighter. What about the John john Molina fight another very close fight that many felt that was DLH first lost. In the other hand all the Trinidad wins were very convincing wins. If you hold against Trinidad his win against Whitaker, why not Chavez against DLH?. That only show your bias. Do some more research and then comeback and argue. No matter how much you cry the decision stands. People should be ashamed of the way DLH fought that fight, running for 2 + minutes on most of the round is no way to win a championship fight. In the 90’s Trinidad should be ranked ahead of DLH period.

Posted: **03 Aug 2006, 14:57**

1940s:

Heavyweight: Joe Louis
Light Heavyweight: Ezzard Charles
Middleweight: Archie Moore
Welterweight: Sugar Ray Robinson
Lightweight: Beau Jack
Featherweight: Willie Pep
Bantamweight: Manuel Ortiz
Flyweight: Jackie Patterson
Pound-for-Pound: Sugar Ray Robinson

sorry dec,

but theres no way archie moore should be # 1 middleweight of the 1940s.

how could u possibly rate archie moore over charley burley at 160lb?

moore was not the best middleweight of black murders row in the 1940s. h williams, charley burley, lloyd marshall, eddie booker were all better

moore beat williams and marshall in 1945, but both williams and marshall were past there primes at this point(though still very good), and H williams still managed to get a win vs archie.

archie also was knocked out by eddie booker and dropped a wide shutout decision to charley burley

Posted: **03 Aug 2006, 15:04**

borinken25 wrote:
Decagon wrote:Trinidad didn't beat De la Hoya; the judges did. De la Hoya beat Whitaker, Quartey, Chavez, Carr and Rivera. Trinidad had a good year in 1994, and caught up with a very badly coked-up Whitaker. He was a one-dimensional slugger (but about as good a one-dimensional slugger as there has ever existed), and he got exposed by every decent boxer he faced, and hit the canvas against nearly everyone.
Like always Decagon you are a joke. First DLH beating Whitaker was a close fight that could have gone either way, the Quartey was another very close fight that many people felt DLH lost, he beat up and old grandfather in Chavez, Carr was destroyed by Trinidad too, and Rivera was a Class C fighter. What about the John john Molina fight another very close fight that many felt that was DLH first lost. In the other hand all the Trinidad wins were very convincing wins. If you hold against Trinidad his win against Whitaker, why not Chavez against DLH?. That only show your bias. Do some more research and then comeback and argue. No matter how much you cry the decision stands. People should be ashamed of the way DLH fought that fight, running for 2 + minutes on most of the round is no way to win a championship fight. In the 90’s Trinidad should be ranked ahead of DLH period.

took the words rioght outta my nouth

Posted: **03 Aug 2006, 17:28**

borinken25 wrote:
Decagon wrote:Trinidad didn't beat De la Hoya; the judges did. De la Hoya beat Whitaker, Quartey, Chavez, Carr and Rivera. Trinidad had a good year in 1994, and caught up with a very badly coked-up Whitaker. He was a one-dimensional slugger (but about as good a one-dimensional slugger as there has ever existed), and he got exposed by every decent boxer he faced, and hit the canvas against nearly everyone.
Like always Decagon you are a joke. First DLH beating Whitaker was a close fight that could have gone either way, the Quartey was another very close fight that many people felt DLH lost, he beat up and old grandfather in Chavez, Carr was destroyed by Trinidad too, and Rivera was a Class C fighter. What about the John john Molina fight another very close fight that many felt that was DLH first lost. In the other hand all the Trinidad wins were very convincing wins. If you hold against Trinidad his win against Whitaker, why not Chavez against DLH?. That only show your bias. Do some more research and then comeback and argue. No matter how much you cry the decision stands. People should be ashamed of the way DLH fought that fight, running for 2 + minutes on most of the round is no way to win a championship fight. In the 90’s Trinidad should be ranked ahead of DLH period.

I'm with Decagon on this one. I'm with Brockton thoug on the top 1940s middleweight. Also a bit strange is Sam Langford as #1 pfp in the 1900s; his prime was arguably around 1910-13.

Overall an excellent effort.

Posted: **03 Aug 2006, 18:15**

yea exzcellent effort dec

Posted: **04 Aug 2006, 09:00**

A truly daunting task. I just can't do it so instead I have tried to list the fighters I consider to be the best in the traditional 8 classes... I only list fighters once (unless there is an error)

Heavy

Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes

Light Heavy

Sam Langford (seems to be frequently rated in this division these days)
Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Bob Foster
Michael Spinks

Middle

Bob Fitzsimmons
Harry Greb
Charley Burley
Marcel Cerdan
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler

Welter

Mickey Walker
Barney Ross
Henry Armstrong
Ray Robinson
Emile Griffith
Jose Napoles
Ray Leonard

Light

Joe Gans
Jack Blackburn
Benny Leonard
Tony Canzoneri
Lou Ambers
Carlos Ortiz
Roberto Duran
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whittaker

Feather

George Dixon
Terry McGovern
Abe Attell
Willie Pep
Sandy Saddler
Salvador Sanchez
Eusebio Pedroza
Azumah Nelson

Bantam

Al Brown
Manuel Ortiz
Eder Jofre
Fighting Harada
Carlos Zarate
Jeff Fenech

Fly

Jimmy Wilde
Pancho Villa
Benny Lynch
Pascual Perez
Miguel Canto

Due to the size development I consider Crusier to be the most reasonable of the bastard weight classes (although ironically it's this one which has produced the least number of great fighters since its inception).

If I went with Crusier I'd add...

Cruiser

Peter Jackson
Joe Jeanette
Jack Dempsey
Evander Holyfield
...

But that would open up a huge can of worms... So I won't...

Posted: **26 Jan 2007, 20:15**

Not a bad list... But IMO..

Sweet Pea and Holyfield should be higher if we are going P4P..

And without question both Khaosai Galaxy and Jeff Fenech are a must on any top 50 list...

Posted: **27 Jan 2007, 05:30**

dmt

Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 60

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: THE 50 GREATEST FIGHTERS EVER POUND FOR POUND

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway here we go:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Joe Gans
8. Ezzard Charles
9. Archie Moore
10. Eder Jofre
11-12-tie- Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler
13. Muhammad Ali
14. Joe Louis
15. Bob Fitzimmons
16. Sugar Ray Leonard
17. Jimmy Wildie
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Carlos Monzon
20. Jose Napoles
21. Alexis Arguello
22. Barney Ross
23. Tommy Hearns
24. Jack Dempsey
25. Rocky Marciano
26. Perenell Whitaker
27. Julio Cesar Chavez
28. George Dixon
29. Gene Tunney
30. Tony Canzoneri
31. Larry Holmes
32. Carlos Zarate
33. Michael Spinks
34. Mickey Walker
35. Emilie Griffith
36. Mike McCallum
37. Charley Burley
38. Jimmy McLarrin
39. George Foreman
40. Joe Frazier
41. Evander Holyfield
42. Salvador Sanchez
43. Azumah Nelson
44. Wilfredo Gomez
45. JOE Waclott, Barbados
46. Billy Conn
47. Bob Foster
48. Roy Jones jr
49. Oscar De La Hoya
50. Ike Williams

Like any "best ever" list, 50, or even 30 is too long a list to be able to honestly justify placement in a specific order.
Your list has pretty much everyone on it that should be, But if it is in decending order, IMO you have SRR too high, SRL and Napoloes a little low, Haggler and Monzon way too low. I also would not have put Langford, Armstrong and Greb in the top 5. I might also try to find room for Ortiz somewhere on my list,,and if you are going as far as 50, it is hard to include PBF.
Still...a good list !

Posted: **27 Jan 2007, 07:31**

My top 25 p4p.

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Willie Pep
4.Henry Armstrong
5.Joe Louis
6.Roberto Duran
7.Gene Tunney
8.Sugar Ray Leonard
9.Harry Greb
10.Carlos Monzon
11.Pernell Whitaker
12.Rocky Marciano
13.Julio Cesar Chavez
14.Eder Jofre
15.Roy Jones Jr.
16.Marvin Hagler
17.Oscar De La Hoya
18.Michael Spinks
19.Bernard Hopkins
20.Evander Holyfield
21.Ricardo Lopez
22.Sam Langford
23.Ezzard Charles
24.Lennox Lewis
25.Salvador Sanchez

Posted: **27 Jan 2007, 16:49**

Chavez, De la Hoya and Lopez above Sam Langford and Ezzard Charles?!?!?! Are you shittin' me?

I think you can make a respectable case for Chavez, but not the other two.

Posted: **27 Jan 2007, 22:53**

Decagon wrote:I just tweaked the hell out of this list for the first solid time in about a year. I had been ranking Bob Fitzsimmons in my top 15 or 20 for quite a while, even though that went against several of my basic principles. I still have him in my top 30, simply because winning titles at 160, 175 and heavyweight is FUCKING AWESOME, but I often think of fighters who've accomplished similar feats, like Tommy Burns, Roy Jones and James Toney. Yeah, Jones and Toney only held the WBA title, and Toney had it stripped from him, but how different is that from a title that wasn't contested by black men?

My editor at Inside Fighting, Michael DiSanto, once briefly suggested that Michael Moorer could be ranked between #50 and #100 of all time, pound-for-pound. Craig Mendaris, another Inside Fighter writer, and I quickly disabused him of that idea, but the thinking behind it is very logical. Michael Moore at 175 was a killer, and he skipped up to heavyweight to beat Evander Holyfield - one of the greatest heavyweights of all time - for the World Heavyweight Championship. But there's a problem with that. Three of the best heavyweights of the era - Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe and Mike Tyson - were all frozen out of the title scene for various reasons. In a way, the situation is similar to the ones Tommy Burns and Bob Fitzsimmons found themselves in as champions. The best fighters couldn't fight for the title.

Anyway, here it is. I started drinking long before I started messing around with the list, so bear with me. I'll edit when I'm sober.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Jimmy Wilde
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Joe Louis
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ray Leonard
12. Eder Jofre
13. Willie Pep
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Archie Moore
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Gene Tunney
18. Michael Spinks
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Jack Dempsey
21. Roy Jones, Jr.
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Emile Griffith
24. Mickey Walker
25. Billy Conn
26. Alexis Arguello
27. Tommy Hearns
28. Bob Fitzsimmons
29. Bob Foster
30. Fighting Harada
31. Evander Holyfield
32. Sonny Liston
33. Rocky Marciano
34. Marcel Cerdan
35. Larry Holmes
36. Bernard Hopkins
37. Barney Ross
38. Sandy Saddler
39. Pasquel Perez
40. Charley Burley
41. Julio Cesar Chavez
42. Joe Frazier
43. Tony Canzoneri
44. Jose Napoles
45. Lloyd Marshall
46. Joe Gans
47. Chang Jung Koo
48. Holman Williams
49. Tiger Flowers
50. Tommy Burns

I expected Chris Byrd and Alfredo Evangelista to make your list.

Posted: **27 Jan 2007, 22:54**

theone wrote:
Chavez, De la Hoya and Lopez above Sam Langford and Ezzard Charles?!?!?! Are you shittin' me?
I think you can make a respectable case for Chavez, but not the other two.

Not above Langford and Charles, who both shojuld be top 10.

DLH is top 25 material in my humble opinion.

Posted: **28 Jan 2007, 00:36**

Decagon wrote:Yeah, but you also have Vitali in the top 30.

First time I hear this.

Posted: **28 Jan 2007, 01:18**

Decagon wrote:I forget. Are you the one that said that Andrew Golota was one of the 10 best heavyweights of the 1990s, or was it the other guy (I can't remember his name right now)?

That was me.

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THE 50 GREATEST FIGHTERS EVER POUND FOR POUND

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