BoxRec

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote:

barry wrote:>>>Meanwhile, the steroid brothers are (or were) known abusers<<<

So very true...which if that put such a bad taste in silkovs mouth about Jones...looks like he would be throwing up about the Klitschko's!


>>>The reason the losses are held against RJJ is because people despised his arrogance for so long they took a great amount of glee in his sudden fall from grace.<<<

Again...so very true! 15 years of having to deal with the FACT that Jones was the best must have been tough!

At least Klitchenko came clean about his use of steroids when he was young and he speaks out now against its use... I dont hear Roy doing anything simular!....
Fact is how good would Roy have been without a little help from his little boosters???....

Came clean?!?!?!?!?! Maybe because he was caught? That's very admirable of him (them)

Do you have any facts about Jones supposed steroid abuse or is it all speculation, rumours and innuendo?

BTW, please learn how to spell.

silkov wrote:

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote: At least Klitchenko came clean about his use of steroids when he was young and he speaks out now against its use... I dont hear Roy doing anything simular!....
Fact is how good would Roy have been without a little help from his little boosters???....

Came clean?!?!?!?!?! Maybe because he was caught? That's very admirable of him (them)

Do you have any facts about Jones supposed steroid abuse or is it all speculation, rumours and innuendo?

BTW, please learn how to spell.

Go back to school...

barry wrote:>>>The fact remains though that Jones didnt fight many of the top guys at 168 and didnt fight the German one at 175 and his opposition at 160 is hardly aweinspiring!<<<

Didn't fight many top guys...he fought the guy who was considered not only to be the very best supermiddleweight, but also considered to be the P4P best in boxing and Jones beat Toney with such ease that it wasn't even a contest!

barry wrote: I hear some people try to make claim to guys like Steve Collins, Nigel Benn and Chris Eubank, but the FACT is that Benn and Eubank wanted nothing to do with Jones and Collins, like DM pretended to want the fight, but would not come to the U.S. for the fight! Jones never ducked anyone...he didn't have to...he was head and shoulders above every single fighter out there in his weight range...as a matter of fact...there were only a couple of heavyweights who could have beaten Jones when he was at the top of his game and that would be due only to size...certainly not skill compared to Jones. Lennox Lewis would have been a very tough fight for Jones to win as Lewis is a counter-puncher. If Lewis came straight forward and tried to mob Jones then Jones would have stood a solid chance of winning, but Lewis was smarter than that and due to the fact that Lewis stayed back it would have been vitually impossible for Jones to get inside of Lewis without getting knocked out!

barry wrote: At middleweight...well again, Jones just beat the middleweight who many now try to put right up there with Hagler, Monzon and other greats, yet Jones beat Hopkins with the same kind of ridiculous ease that he beat Toney! Those two matches are really all that needs to be said about Jones at 160 and 168...aside from Jones...they were the two best middleweights of the last 20 years...and that is FACT!!!!

barry wrote:>>>Well the evidence shows differently...he never would fight WBO champion Dariusz Michaczewski nor would he face 'interim LHW champion' Graciano Rocchigiani, and opted to face off against stiffs like Clinton Woods and Ricky Frazier. <<<

The actual truthful evidence shows that DM would not fight Jones unless the fight took place in Germany...Jones offered to fight DM in England, but it was Germany, or nothing for DM. And while DM and other pretenders of the crown were fighting opponents that were ranked by absolutely no one...Jones was fighting and beating, maybe not the best ever, but he was fighting and beating the light heavyweights who were actually ranked in the top ten in all orgs including Ring.

Roy Jones was the best of the last 20 years and one of the best of all time...the actual evidence of what he accomplished is proof enough for most...not to mention that Jones will also be a first ballot Hall of Famer when the time comes...do you think Rocchigiani, or DM will even be considered for the HOF...I doubt it very seriously...fighting the likes of Nicky Piper, Andrea Magi and others of that exact stature do not make a HOF fighter!!!

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote:

Parm wrote:

Came clean?!?!?!?!?! Maybe because he was caught? That's very admirable of him (them)

Do you have any facts about Jones supposed steroid abuse or is it all speculation, rumours and innuendo?

BTW, please learn how to spell.

Go back to school...

Maybe you should, you look like you spell at a 3rd grade level. Plus, by your posts, you're quite obviously a moron.

Ezzard wrote:

barry wrote:>>>The fact remains though that Jones didnt fight many of the top guys at 168 and didnt fight the German one at 175 and his opposition at 160 is hardly aweinspiring!<<<

Didn't fight many top guys...he fought the guy who was considered not only to be the very best supermiddleweight, but also considered to be the P4P best in boxing and Jones beat Toney with such ease that it wasn't even a contest!

I agree thaty he spanked Toney and desrved his p4p status.

barry wrote: I hear some people try to make claim to guys like Steve Collins, Nigel Benn and Chris Eubank, but the FACT is that Benn and Eubank wanted nothing to do with Jones and Collins, like DM pretended to want the fight, but would not come to the U.S. for the fight! Jones never ducked anyone...he didn't have to...he was head and shoulders above every single fighter out there in his weight range...as a matter of fact...there were only a couple of heavyweights who could have beaten Jones when he was at the top of his game and that would be due only to size...certainly not skill compared to Jones. Lennox Lewis would have been a very tough fight for Jones to win as Lewis is a counter-puncher. If Lewis came straight forward and tried to mob Jones then Jones would have stood a solid chance of winning, but Lewis was smarter than that and due to the fact that Lewis stayed back it would have been vitually impossible for Jones to get inside of Lewis without getting knocked out!

I don't think this is true. Benn, Collins and Eubank wanted Jones because of the huge purse involved. I don't think you can accuse DM of not wanting the fight in USA if Jones wouldn't go to Germany. I know you're going to say well why not England but I don't expect the same from DM. A double standard? Yes. Why? Because Jones was far and wide the best around. I expect more from him. That's what greats do IMO. Like I said, I'd back him to beat all these guys but in most cases they wanted the fight and Jones didn't (well that's how it looks, Jones was the man).

Benn wanted a big money fight with either Jones, Toney or McClellan. After he beat Gerald he was gone. Benn knew it deep down. it took too much out of him. I think the tragedy effected Jones a lot too. I also regret there never being rematches with Toney and Hopkins.

Anyway, if Jones had misssed one or 2 of these names then no problem, but he missed so many. You must conceed, no matter how much you rate him, and whatever the merits of each individual match up, that to miss all of them is a bit too much.

As for Lewis I cannot imagine a single scenario in which Jones wins, but there you go...

barry wrote: At middleweight...well again, Jones just beat the middleweight who many now try to put right up there with Hagler, Monzon and other greats, yet Jones beat Hopkins with the same kind of ridiculous ease that he beat Toney! Those two matches are really all that needs to be said about Jones at 160 and 168...aside from Jones...they were the two best middleweights of the last 20 years...and that is FACT!!!!

I think the Hopkins fight was closer than the Toney fight. Hopkins landed a number of decent right hands in a few of the rouds. Jones won clearly but it was not the shut out that he did on Toney.

I think had he stayed at 160 he'd have been considered a definite ATG. I don't think he quite cracks a 175 top 10 but I can see why he might get a low placing.

As for the steroids, nothing against Jones, it's prevalent in boxing (and IMO often detrimental to a fighter) but you don't just put on that kind of muscle without some kind of help. I don't want to criticise Jones for this because it's a problem in all sports and I don't blame him for doing what everyone else is doing.

barry wrote:LOL



>>>As per usual you're getting personal because you dont like what is being said.<<<

I don’t like it when people flat out lie with made up bullshit that they simply cannot produce any thing whatsoever to back the bogus claim…that I don’t like!

>>>The results were posted on the net and printed in Boxing News!... fact!<<<

Well then there should be absolutely no problem for you to locate the FACTS and present them to us…unless of course…it’s made up…personally, I know it’s made up, so in response you will now try to change the issue, or just ignore the challenege altogether…as usual!

>>>... the fact that you seek to deny it just goes to show how biased you are.<<<

LOL…I would laugh in your face if I could! This is what you do when someone asks you to present something factual…you start making up shit!

>>>As per usual you're getting personal because you dont like what is being said.<<<

Getting personal...in what way…how?

Just like the claim about Jones which you can produce nothing factual this claim is as lame and bogus as the claim about Jones! What, do you consider is "getting personal," when someone simply asks another to present some actual FACTS to back a bogus claim they have made, or is it simply because you CANNOT present anything FACTUAL, so you start whining and crying that it's getting personal, yet you are the only person that has started with name-calling, which is typical of someone who cannot back up the claim they start...

>>>This thread isnt about Vitali but about Jones... if you cant debate without swearing or insulting then I'm not going to bother answering you....<<<

Good…go elsewhere…that’s what you usually do when you cannot provide anything to back a bogus claim that you make. And honestly you have read enough of me to know that I am going to say what’s on my mind and you sure as hell know that I swear…though I don’t recall you being so straight-laced and as far as insulting…I prefer to just win debates!

>>>but you're seriously deluded if you think that I'm making it up about Jones failing the drugs test... as for the Vitali question, move on mate, ...I have.<<<


See, you with the name calling…now where have I done as such in the thread?

As to the Vitali question…I figured you would move on as you have no FACTUAL answer to back any statement you have made, so instead you start whining about getting personal when the only person getting personal was you…the crush you have on the quitter Vitali clearly obvious, but it looks like you would have the sense to realize and acknowledge right from wrong! Maybe in the future before you make any more bullashit claims that you simply cannot back up you might want to actually have some evidence to back you case because the running from the debate, or trying to change the subject by making up more bogus claims go absolutely no where!

barry wrote:>>>>I don't think this is true. Benn, Collins and Eubank wanted Jones because of the huge purse involved. I don't think you can accuse DM of not wanting the fight in USA if Jones wouldn't go to Germany. I know you're going to say well why not England but I don't expect the same from DM. A double standard? Yes. Why? Because Jones was far and wide the best around. I expect more from him. That's what greats do IMO. Like I said, I'd back him to beat all these guys but in most cases they wanted the fight and Jones didn't (well that's how it looks, Jones was the man).<<<<

That is true…more is expected of fighters like Jones, but should Jones give up all incentives for a fight against, not only the lesser fighter, but also against a fighter who plain and simply does not bring half the money to the table that Jones does?

The Jones-DM fight not happening is both fighters fault and it’s damn near equal blame for both fighters, though you will never hear any DM fans agree that DM was equally to blame, but that is the FACT of the matter…both fighters are at fault, but it is Jones always who takes the most flack for the fight not happening.


>>>Benn wanted a big money fight with either Jones, Toney or McClellan. After he beat Gerald he was gone. Benn knew it deep down. it took too much out of him. I think the tragedy effected Jones a lot too. I also regret there never being rematches with Toney and Hopkins.<<<


There will probably be a rematch with Hopkins though it has little to no actual value now, but rematches when they were all three still at the top of they’re game would have been much of the same as the first fight! It seems that the Jones detractors simply do not want to give him credit for the fights in which he easily beat Hopkins and Toney, but they instead consistenly talk about a rematch not happening. Though Jones flat-out offered Hopkins a rematch, but Hopkins refused to take the fight unless he got a 50/50 purse split…so who’s fault is that…really?


>>>>Anyway, if Jones had misssed one or 2 of these names then no problem, but he missed so many. You must conceed, no matter how much you rate him, and whatever the merits of each individual match up, that to miss all of them is a bit too much<<<

Missed so many…that’s rubbish…go back through Jones’ career…look at the fighters he beat and when he fought them…check out where they were ranked when Jones faced them…Aside from Richard Frazier and Glen Kelly the rest were at the top and rightly so…though even Frazier was ranked number one by the WBC, but that was rubbish, but that aside Jones fought and beat the best available with the exception of a couple…the other fighters that people like to make claims about, when it actually came down to where it was time to put up, or shut up they either wanted nothing to do with Jones due to purses, fight location and several other nuances which prevented certain fights to come of…Now Jones is certainly not guiltless in certain bouts not happening, but he is also not the only guilty party for a bout not coming off.

>>>As for Lewis I cannot imagine a single scenario in which Jones wins, but there you go...<<<

I can’t really see any way that Jones wins that fight either, but a lot less shocking has occurred!




>>>I think the Hopkins fight was closer than the Toney fight. Hopkins landed a number of decent right hands in a few of the rouds. Jones won clearly but it was not the shut out that he did on Toney.<<<

It was closer than the fight with Toney, but neither were at all close!

>>>I think had he stayed at 160 he'd have been considered a definite ATG. I don't think he quite cracks a 175 top 10 but I can see why he might get a low placing.<<<

I don’t know…I rank him 8 at light heavyweight behind Spinks, Foster, Moore, Tunney, Charles, Fitzsimmons and Langford and just ahead of Loughran and Tommy Burns.

He was pretty scary at middleweight as he not only had the incredible skill and speed, but he also had a very big punch at 160 and 168. He completely lost that vicious punch when he moved up to 175, but under that weight he could knock anyone out! The fight that I always wanted to see and the one that I honestly felt would be the most dangerous and the most loseable for Jones would be against McClellan. Primarily because of McClellan’s power and toughness, but also his speed to get his big shots in.



>>>As for the steroids, nothing against Jones, it's prevalent in boxing (and IMO often detrimental to a fighter) but you don't just put on that kind of muscle without some kind of help. I don't want to criticise Jones for this because it's a problem in all sports and I don't blame him for doing what everyone else is doing.<<<


Jones has always had that kind of muscle and there are fighters from the past who look damn near like Jones, I’m talking pre-50s fighters. Steroids are mainly for bulk, Jones was simply cut. Could he have used steroids…most certainly…did he use steroids…we don’t know and there certainly is no evidence to prove that he did!!!!

barry wrote:As I said from the start...why don't you put some actual evidence up for us all to see, or quit making up bullshit claims that you have absolutely nothing to back it with...whereas the great quitter Vitali, well you yourself know about his steroid abuse, yet you still want to yap nonsense that you simply do not have the ability to prove! Or maybe instead you can just go back to whining about invisible name-calling, or some other typical rant to avoid the main issue!!!

silkov wrote:

barry wrote:As I said from the start...why don't you put some actual evidence up for us all to see, or quit making up bullshit claims that you have absolutely nothing to back it with...whereas the great quitter Vitali, well you yourself know about his steroid abuse, yet you still want to yap nonsense that you simply do not have the ability to prove! Or maybe instead you can just go back to whining about invisible name-calling, or some other typical rant to avoid the main issue!!!

The only one whining is you Barry, why do you take everything so personally?... its really tiresome... everyone knows that Jones failed the dugs test... I've seen the papers... if you want to pretend it didnt happen thats up to you, but you're denying the facts I'm afraid...

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote:

barry wrote:As I said from the start...why don't you put some actual evidence up for us all to see, or quit making up bullshit claims that you have absolutely nothing to back it with...whereas the great quitter Vitali, well you yourself know about his steroid abuse, yet you still want to yap nonsense that you simply do not have the ability to prove! Or maybe instead you can just go back to whining about invisible name-calling, or some other typical rant to avoid the main issue!!!

The only one whining is you Barry, why do you take everything so personally?... its really tiresome... everyone knows that Jones failed the dugs test... I've seen the papers... if you want to pretend it didnt happen thats up to you, but you're denying the facts I'm afraid...

I dont need to prove it, its a well known fact... I've seen the documents and it was reported in several papers... the only people who dont seem to have heard about it is you and Barry!.... 8)


I think what Barry is asking for, as he's told you numerous times, is evidence of these failed drug tests. It's easy to say "RJJ failed drug tests", well then,... prove it.

silkov wrote:

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote: The only one whining is you Barry, why do you take everything so personally?... its really tiresome... everyone knows that Jones failed the dugs test... I've seen the papers... if you want to pretend it didnt happen thats up to you, but you're denying the facts I'm afraid...

I dont need to prove it, its a well known fact... I've seen the documents and it was reported in several papers... the only people who dont seem to have heard about it is you and Barry!.... 8)


I think what Barry is asking for, as he's told you numerous times, is evidence of these failed drug tests. It's easy to say "RJJ failed drug tests", well then,... prove it.

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote:

Parm wrote: I dont need to prove it, its a well known fact... I've seen the documents and it was reported in several papers... the only people who dont seem to have heard about it is you and Barry!.... 8)


I think what Barry is asking for, as he's told you numerous times, is evidence of these failed drug tests. It's easy to say "RJJ failed drug tests", well then,... prove it.

Well then, if you saw "documents" and it was reported in papers then it should be no problem for you to copy and paste it from somewhere and prove us wrong.

Don't know where you're from, but that story would be big news here, even a bigger story than Toney testing positive. So again, if you have the proof....

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:-Greatest wins: Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Mike McCallum and John Ruiz. Ironically enough all four victories were at different weight classes and all four were in his debut at the weight.

Eric the Viking wrote:

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:-Greatest wins: Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Mike McCallum and John Ruiz. Ironically enough all four victories were at different weight classes and all four were in his debut at the weight.

Atlhough McCallum was no picnic even at that late point in his career and several weight classes above his prime, I wouldn't count that as a "great" win. IMO the one-sided destruction of a near-prime Virgil Hill was much more impressive.

Looking back, Jones got a lot of flak about the supposed lack of quality of opposition during his heyday at light-heavy, but the critics keep harping on just one or two opponents who were clearly weak (e.g. Ricky Frazier). For the most part, however, despite the fact that we never saw the "dream" fight vs. DM or one vs. Rocchigiani, his average quality of opposition at LHW was really quite high - significantly higher, I would argue, than DM's. After beating Hill, DM had quite a string of outright puff pastries and Jones beatdown victims on his record. And funny how all the Tarver nuthuggers have disappeared back into the woodwork now that the "greatness" of 'Tonio's "reign" has become sadly apparent.

Agree with the comments about Jones' relative lack of orthodox boxing skills - but on the other hand, that sheer lack of orthodoxy combined with the dazzling physical skills to get away with it for so long made him interesting to watch. You never knew what he was going do for a particular fight: fight southpaw, off the ropes or on his bicycle, inside or outside, with the jab or (more often) without it, to the body or the head ... very few fighters in history had the physical gifts to do that sort of stuff.

silkov wrote:I didnt exactly keep the papers and frame them I'm afraid, I have the Boxing News paper that its in but it would take a week to find as many of my boxing News are in storage... as I've said before it was hushed up, the WBC buried it... it was leaked out however, before essentially being buried again. But look around here, the only other person denying this is Barry and he's too emotionally involved to debate rationally. Look up 'Roy Jones failed steroid test' or something like that on the net and you'll come up with loads of information on this.... are we all lying?... I wish we were, it certainly doesnt give me any particular pleasure that Jones failed a test despite what some may think!...

silkov wrote:But how much was Jones speed genuine?... how much was enhanced???...

silkov wrote:

Parm wrote:

silkov wrote:

Well then, if you saw "documents" and it was reported in papers then it should be no problem for you to copy and paste it from somewhere and prove us wrong.

Don't know where you're from, but that story would be big news here, even a bigger story than Toney testing positive. So again, if you have the proof....

I didnt exactly keep the papers and frame them I'm afraid, I have the Boxing News paper that its in but it would take a week to find as many of my boxing News are in storage... as I've said before it was hushed up, the WBC buried it... it was leaked out however, before essentially being buried again. But look around here, the only other person denying this is Barry and he's too emotionally involved to debate rationally. Look up 'Roy Jones failed steroid test' or something like that on the net and you'll come up with loads of information on this.... are we all lying?... I wish we were, it certainly doesnt give me any particular pleasure that Jones failed a test despite what some may think!...

Parm wrote:All I could really find was an interview with Richard Hall accusing Jones of using steroids. While possible, I just couldn't find any hard evidence of this. Sounds like more Internet gossip than anything.

Eric the Viking wrote:

Parm wrote:All I could really find was an interview with Richard Hall accusing Jones of using steroids. While possible, I just couldn't find any hard evidence of this. Sounds like more Internet gossip than anything.

No, that's not a mere rumor ... that interview was in the wake of the Jones/Hall title fight in Indianapolis I mentioned above - just that Hall, being the sore loser he was, "forgot" to mention that he also flunked the same test for the mysterious "substance X" which was never named. I've seen copies of the IBF letter (at least the one to jones) - like I said, the normal procedure would've been to (a) name a specific substance, and (b) do followup tests on B-samples, but neither of these was ever done.

Ah, i found a link to the original Braggingrightscorner.com article about this - that has links to scans of the IBF letters to both Jones and Hall. Note that the letters do say "anabolic steroid," but don't say which one - there are many, with a different test for each, so you'd think they'd have known which it was.

Parm wrote:Sounds like that's the fault of the IBF, as they didn't do anything about it.