Premature Stoppages

turn2stone · Post by **turn2stone** » 03 Oct 2006, 21:28

Dentsun4228 wrote:
JCS83MD wrote:
Decagon wrote:Steele asked Taylor if he wanted to continue - twice - and Taylor didn't say shit. Taylor was gone, and that wasn't a bad stoppage. Forget that shit from HBO's Legendary Nights.
I think Steele had money on Chavez.. It almost looked like he was trying to stop the fight in time before the final bell.. There was only like 3 or 4 seconds left.
If you watch HBO's Legendary Nights documentary of the fight, in one scene Steele effusively voices his admiration for Chavez. He was obviously a huge Chavez fan, going on about Chavez great skill and power etc, etc. Steele is kind of a dumbass...Taylor was up at the count of 6...he was distracted by his corner, but his legs were under him. It was a major title fight and he deserved a chance to finish. I've seen refs allow fights to continue when fighters were a lot shakier and unresponsive. By any standards it was a premature stoppage. I think Steele let his love for Chavez screw up his judgement that night.

Another bad stoppage was the Zab Judah- Tszyu fight. Zab went down, got back up and fell again...the ref stopped it at the count of 4. If he had kept counting 'til 8, Zab would have been fully recovered and back on his feet. Not saying he would have won, but once again, bad refereeing screwed the fighter. When refs are at a loss, when they find themselves in a situation that they've never been in before the best response not to panic and stop the fight...The fighters deserve better.

zab almost fell a third time, except nady held him by the gloves.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 03 Oct 2006, 23:13

turn2stone wrote:
Decagon wrote:Lewis-McCall I. The outcome of that match changed the face of boxing history. If Lewis had at least had a chance to come back, he wouldn't have lost in his prime. Heck, he'd probably be a top-5 heavyweight.
stumbling with shaking legs into the ref's arms hurts that argument.

Yeah, Lummox was fekked.

Wasn't he also mumbling "Can I have another balloon, grandad?"?

How could the ref allow it to continue after Lewis stumbled into him?

sly2kusa · Post by **sly2kusa** » 04 Oct 2006, 00:23

Do any of you feel that the first Leonard vs Hearns fight was stopped prematurely? Or do you feel that Davey Pearle just spared Tommy from the inevitable?

Ah the days of 15 round championship bouts. I wish they'd bring them back.

Dentsun4228 · Post by **Dentsun4228** » 04 Oct 2006, 02:55

[
If you watch HBO's Legendary Nights documentary of the fight, in one scene Steele effusively voices his admiration for Chavez. He was obviously a huge Chavez fan, going on about Chavez great skill and power etc, etc. Steele is kind of a dumbass...Taylor was up at the count of 6...he was distracted by his corner, but his legs were under him. It was a major title fight and he deserved a chance to finish. I've seen refs allow fights to continue when fighters were a lot shakier and unresponsive. By any standards it was a premature stoppage. I think Steele let his love for Chavez screw up his judgement that night. [/quote]

zab almost fell a third time, except nady held him by the gloves.[/quote]

What fight were you looking at? Nady waved the fight off and grabbed Zab to signal the end of the fight. Zab was nowhere about to fall a third time. It was a lousy stoppage. If Nady needed a tutorial on how to handle a situation like this he should have watched the Tyson-Berbick fight in which Berbick got dropped and kept trying to get up but repeatedly stumbles and falls to the deck until the full count had been administered. THAT's how a ref handles a situation like this.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 04 Oct 2006, 03:00

Decagon wrote:
wouter wrote:Ali v. Liston II, Tyson v. Ruddock I, Moorer v. Swindell I (though the chances winning for the victims were small). I also think Ali v. Foreman was stopped a bit prematurely. Foreman wasn't hurt that bad and seemed to get up in time.
Liston was down for the 10-count. That means the match is over, unless you're fighting in Germany.

Once again there was no count

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 04 Oct 2006, 09:15

Dentsun4228 wrote: Another bad stoppage was the Zab Judah- Tszyu fight. Zab went down, got back up and fell again...the ref stopped it at the count of 4. If he had kept counting 'til 8, Zab would have been fully recovered and back on his feet. Not saying he would have won, but once again, bad refereeing screwed the fighter. When refs are at a loss, when they find themselves in a situation that they've never been in before the best response not to panic and stop the fight...The fighters deserve better.

Yes I agree with that, Nady f****d up that night - he panicked. Sure Zab was on rubber legs, but the bell had rung and the correct decision would have been to send him back to his corner, then see how he reacted in the 3rd round - it was a superfight after all.

Zab was no worse off than Larry Holmes was when he stumbled up from the Shavers knockdown. Larry was given the benefit of the doubt by the ref, and had the chance to go on and prove himself one of the greats as a result.

Not saying Zab would have won ( though he had hurt Tszyu in the 1st ) but Nady robbed the fans that night.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 04 Oct 2006, 09:24

wouter wrote:
Decagon wrote:
wouter wrote:Ali v. Liston II, Tyson v. Ruddock I, Moorer v. Swindell I (though the chances winning for the victims were small). I also think Ali v. Foreman was stopped a bit prematurely. Foreman wasn't hurt that bad and seemed to get up in time.
Liston was down for the 10-count. That means the match is over, unless you're fighting in Germany.
Once again there was no count

That's how I see it. Without a count how can he be counted out? I don't think there was a fix at all. I just think Liston sufefred a flash KD and then Fleischer interfered and Walcott ballsed it up.

turn2stone · Post by **turn2stone** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:55

Dentsun4228 wrote:[
If you watch HBO's Legendary Nights documentary of the fight, in one scene Steele effusively voices his admiration for Chavez. He was obviously a huge Chavez fan, going on about Chavez great skill and power etc, etc. Steele is kind of a dumbass...Taylor was up at the count of 6...he was distracted by his corner, but his legs were under him. It was a major title fight and he deserved a chance to finish. I've seen refs allow fights to continue when fighters were a lot shakier and unresponsive. By any standards it was a premature stoppage. I think Steele let his love for Chavez screw up his judgement that night.

zab almost fell a third time, except nady held him by the gloves.[/quote]

What fight were you looking at? Nady waved the fight off and grabbed Zab to signal the end of the fight. Zab was nowhere about to fall a third time. It was a lousy stoppage. If Nady needed a tutorial on how to handle a situation like this he should have watched the Tyson-Berbick fight in which Berbick got dropped and kept trying to get up but repeatedly stumbles and falls to the deck until the full count had been administered. THAT's how a ref handles a situation like this.[/quote]

ya, im sure zab appreciated that signal. he was on another planet...lurging foward. dont try and make it seem like he was standing still with his gloves at chin level telling nady he was fit to continue.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 04 Oct 2006, 23:17

Regarding some of the fights mentioned. Saad Muhammad vs Jerry Martin was very quick, Saad landed a left right and Hazzard stopped it. Ironically Martin fought for the WBC version of the LHW title in his very next fight, and AGAIN he was the victim of another premature stoppage, this time against Qawi. Leonard v Benitez, maybe premature by 50's standards, but for the time it wasn't, Benitez was down 3 times and was way behind. Ali v Foreman C'MON WOUTER !!! Did you see how badly Foreman was staggering on the walk back to the dressing room, Ali gave him a beating. Chavez v Taylor will be debated until the Apocalypse, my opinion, Steele was justified in stopping the fight when Taylor couldn't answer. Still, I might see the point made by those who think if a guy can hang on till he's half dead, that he deserves some reward for his efforts. Drayton v Moore, I'd like to see it again, but I remember it being stopped with Moore getting hammered on the ropes, after being clearly ahead.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 05 Oct 2006, 01:04

Leonard/Hearns 1. Davey Pearl looked like he was on the take, stopping that one when he did..

sly2kusa · Post by **sly2kusa** » 05 Oct 2006, 01:59

Seamus wrote:...Leonard v Benitez, maybe premature by 50's standards, but for the time it wasn't, Benitez was down 3 times and was way behind...

Actually - he had only been down twice, but I would agree that it wasn't premature.

The first Leonard vs Hearns fight was though. I was rooting for Sugar all the way, and would have liked to see him finish Tommy off back then, but oh well.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 05 Oct 2006, 08:03

Liston wasnt interested

also

AFORCE V TOMAZ BONIN WBF TITLE shud never have been stopped

Joe Bugner V Winston Allen was building up to a real war

Gerry Nobles V Nic Valuev cud have continued

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 07 Oct 2006, 18:52

Tyson - Ruddock I
Morrison - Ruddock
Dokes - Weaver
Hatcher - Bumphus
Chavez - Taylor
Bonecrusher - Weaver
Holmes - Snipes

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Oct 2006, 05:59

Decagon wrote:
RazorKO wrote:Tyson - Ruddock I
Morrison - Ruddock
Dokes - Weaver
Hatcher - Bumphus
Chavez - Taylor
Bonecrusher - Weaver
Holmes - Snipes

Here's what happened
A HUGE left hook from Morrison that had Ruddock more hurt than Lewis against McCall

25 unanswered shots from Morrison

A standing eight-count

42 unanswered punches, with Ruddock only throwing three punches (all missing) in return)
That was a late stoppage, if anything. 68 unanswered punches? I think that might be a record. I think Ruddock might've gotten brain damage from that fight, and it transfered to you. He got owned, and badly. Morrison raped him so bad that Ruddock got AIDS.

Wow!.

..nice classy comments there!.

.. why this interest in men getting raped??? :x :x :x

the only person with brain damage around here seems to be you!...

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 08 Oct 2006, 07:24

Decagon wrote:
RazorKO wrote:Tyson - Ruddock I
Morrison - Ruddock
Dokes - Weaver
Hatcher - Bumphus
Chavez - Taylor
Bonecrusher - Weaver
Holmes - Snipes

Here's what happened
A HUGE left hook from Morrison that had Ruddock more hurt than Lewis against McCall

25 unanswered shots from Morrison

A standing eight-count

42 unanswered punches, with Ruddock only throwing three punches (all missing) in return)
That was a late stoppage, if anything. 68 unanswered punches? I think that might be a record. I think Ruddock might've gotten brain damage from that fight, and it transfered to you. He got owned, and badly. Morrison raped him so bad that Ruddock got AIDS.

A huge left hook from Morrison hit Ruddock square on the chin....but he got up at ONE! That is quicker than how Holmes got up from Shavers and Razor didnt stumble into the refs arms like a helpless drunk i.e Lewis.

[*]25 unanswered shots from Morrison

No such thing, Morrison threw pitty pat punches on the way to the stoppage and when the Morrison jab which hit Razor, the only punch that landed cleanly gave the ref and excuse to stop the fight. Ruddock was fully aware of the surroundings he was in and instantly complain to the ref.

He got owned, and badly. Morrison raped him so bad that Ruddock got AIDS.[/

Maybe if you watch the whole fight you can see that Ruddock had Morrison down with an uppercut in the first, had him hurt in the third round and was about to finish Morrison off in the 6th until Morrison threw that left hook which floored him. - You can compare this similar senario to Weaver-Williams when Williams was about to finish Weaver off until a left hook came ending the fight.

BTW I believe it was Morrsion who had aids.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 08 Oct 2006, 07:28

turn2stone wrote:
Decagon wrote:Lewis-McCall I. The outcome of that match changed the face of boxing history. If Lewis had at least had a chance to come back, he wouldn't have lost in his prime. Heck, he'd probably be a top-5 heavyweight.
stumbling with shaking legs into the ref's arms hurts that argument.

Exactly right, if Lewis was aloud to continue it would of been a matter of seconds until lewis would of been KTFO.
Hell the man stumbled into the arms of the ref!

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 08 Oct 2006, 07:46

Tyson -v- Ruddock 1.

Razor was hurt, but he did have an egg custard chin, so being hurt was normal for him. He seemed to be ok enough as soon as Steele waved it off.

He could have let Ruddock continue IMO.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 08 Oct 2006, 14:14

Syntax Error wrote:Tyson -v- Ruddock 1.

Razor was hurt, but he did have an egg custard chin, so being hurt was normal for him. He seemed to be ok enough as soon as Steele waved it off.

He could have let Ruddock continue IMO.

I wouldnt say Ruddock had a bad chin, he got up at 1 from a massive Morrison left hook, took Weaver's best left hook in their fight and was able to fight back when hurt and took all Tyson best shots.

I couldnt even imagine Lewis getting up from that Morrison or Weaver left hook, not only getting up but fighting back.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 08 Oct 2006, 14:17

Then he took another 67 unanswered punches, only throwing three in return, all of which missed. Shit, I know more about your hero than you do.

67? You're watching another fight and mistakening it for this one. There is not a chance where Morrison threw all those punches, Morrison threw all sorts of pitty pat punches and finally a jab which snapped Ruddocks head back gave the ref a perfect excuse to the stop the fight.
Ruddock wasnt hurt when he was hit by that left hook nor was he hurt at the end of the fight.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 09 Oct 2006, 07:29

A scandalous stoppage was when referee Martin Denkin detained the WBA vacant Light Welterweight Title fight between Antonio Cervantes and Carlos Giménez, when Giménez was absolutely superior; the referee give as a pretext a little and close cut of Giménez in an eyebrow and declared Antonio Cervantes the winner by T.K.O. It was a bashfulness. The match was on June, 1977, in Maracaibo, Zulia, Venezuela

cosand · Post by **cosand** » 09 Oct 2006, 11:52

Ali v Lyle
Tyson v Williams
Corrales v Castillo
Lewis v Klitschko

cosand · Post by **cosand** » 09 Oct 2006, 15:21

I disagree with almost all of your picks!cosand wrote:
Tyson v Williams
Tyson was down for the 10 count! What do you think the referee should've done? Count to 20?

No, actually Williams was up at the count of 8 and had enough left to wildly protest the stoppage. It was little more then a flash knockdown. But I will say, a matter of just moving up what was probably goingg to happen in a round or two anyway. Still, no reason Wlliams could not have continued at that point.

Corrales v Castillo
(the first one?) Sure, Corrales was hurt, and he gained extra time by spitting out the mouthpiece, but that was a clean stoppage. Castillo was out on his feet

Well I guess we have different definitions of "out on his feet". What I saw was a left right combination, floowed by a 5-6 punch flurry, followed by castillo wondering why the fight was sstopped.
What spooked the referee was was that Castillo's head snaped back then wobbled. That is a red flag a lot of refs use, but his legs were solidly under him and one had to wonder why that was a better reason to stop the fight, then Corrales going down in sections, and having to spit out the mouthpeice to buy time to recover.
By the way, NO bias here, I am a fan of Corrales, but I still think it was a premature stoppage.

Lewis v Klitschko
Even Vitali Klitschko's cut man, the great Joe Souza, agreed with the stoppage. He told the San Antonio Express-News so a couple of days after the fight that even though he wanted Bitschko to continue, the doctor did the right thing.

I think it would have been the right thing to do in a 10 round preliminary that had been one sided to that point, but not in a title fight in which the cut fighter was winning and showing little sign of wear from it.
That part of the eye/face is soft, hollow tissue. The cut was outside the eye socket and had no chance of causing long term damage. (That from my not so great, less famous former cut man..lol) Plus the bleeding had been controled.
I know it was ugly, and I guess on second thought, this may have been too marginal to meet the threads criteria, but I still wish we all could have seen thatt fight go on until it was decided by the fighters.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 09 Oct 2006, 16:58

Mayweather/Manfredy was a very premature stoppage. Angel wasn't seriously hurt, but he was pinned against the ropes and not doing anything but trying to defend and he would eat the occasional Mayweather punch. The ref asked Manfredy to show him something, he didn't, so the ref stopped it with like 15 seconds left in round 2 if I recall correctly.

cosand · Post by **cosand** » 09 Oct 2006, 21:00

<<Ah, you should have specified which Tyson-Williams fight you were talking about (and which Corrales-Castillo fight you were talking about).

Basically, if Klitschko's own cutman agreed with the stoppage, who are you to disagree?>>

True enough on the specifics...my bad.

True on Klitschko's cut man as well, except he had the chance to say so duriing the fight, and either didnt or got over ruled in the corner for whatever reason. Easy to take the precieved high road after the fact.
If he's my fighter, as as a fan, with that much at stake, and his vision isnt affected and the bleeding is under control, I would like to see him finish...IMHO

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 10 Oct 2006, 17:11

There really are some barbaric sons of bitches on this thead calling the Taylor stoppage poor. How much distress does a fighter have to be in for some of you guys to say enough is enough. Meldrick was in a bad way, could not respond and also had taken a lot of punishment for 36 minutes. One more shot could have claimed his life and some people are slagging Steele off. I would say if Taylor looked back at the event, he himself would thank Steele for the call. How many more Watson's and McClellan's do we need??. Steele was not the timekeeper in there, he wasn' to know that there was exactly 2-3 secs remaining. Who is to say that the timekeeper would have rung the bell at 2-3 secs and not 5-6 or even more.

As for Lewis, he was all over the place with legs like Jelly.The Ref had to hold him damn well up and again there are calls saying he should have been allowed continue. I think it's sick to be honest!!!